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2019/20 Roster Thread XXX - AKA the Ghost Thread | Page 31 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League
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2019/20 Roster Thread XXX - AKA the Ghost Thread

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Beef Invictus said:
Well, I don't think it's Giroux's fault that Homer and Hextall couldn't build teams to put Giroux in a similar position.
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I don't think it's about fault. It's just the way things have shaken out for G in his career.

The truth is that Kane, for example, has two Cups (or is it three?) on top of being one of the best players in his cohort and snagging the Calder, Hart, Pearson, Conn Smythe, and Art Ross.

Giroux, who compares favourably in terms of statistics, pales in terms of accomplishments - both at the individual level and team level.

In the end, one is a very decorated winner, and one is not.

Even Lindros was a controversial choice for HHOF, and he undeniably had a bigger impact on the game than Giroux, I would say.

So if our Ginger G gets in, good on him. He's an incredible player and a joy to watch. If he doesn't, so be it.
 
flyersnorth said:
I don't think it's about fault. It's just the way things have shaken out for G in his career.

The truth is that Kane, for example, has two Cups (or is it three?) on top of being one of the best players in his cohort and snagging the Calder, Hart, Pearson, Conn Smythe, and Art Ross.

Giroux, who compares favourably in terms of statistics, pales in terms of accomplishments - both at the individual level and team level.

In the end, one is a very decorated winner, and one is not.

Even Lindros was a controversial choice for HHOF, and he undeniably had a bigger impact on the game than Giroux, I would say.

So if our Ginger G gets in, good on him. He's an incredible player and a joy to watch. If he doesn't, so be it.
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It's a stupid standard that gives one player credit for a team's accomplishments.

No player should be elevated over another just because he happened to play in the right place at the right time.
 
Beef Invictus said:
It's a stupid standard that gives one player credit for a team's accomplishments.

No player should be elevated over another just because he happened to play in the right place at the right time.
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Stop being a G fanboi. If he were a real leader like Toews, hed have a cup by now. The Norris winner And Hart winner he had on his team to support him arent really part of the success. It was all Toews' leadership that got them there.
 
Awards/Trophies are only worth as much as the opinions of the people voting for them. This is a major problem in the case of the PHWA voting for leaguewide awards. They'll usually get the layups right -- Crosby's great, Ovechkin's great, etc. That's about it.

I don't even blame them. It's not their jobs to evaluate players on non-local teams. It's an asinine system.
 
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JojoTheWhale said:
Awards/Trophies are only worth as much as the opinions of the people voting for them. This is a major problem in the case of the PHWA voting for leaguewide awards. They'll usually get the layups right -- Crosby's great, Ovechkin's great, etc. That's about it.

I don't even blame them. It's not their jobs to evaluate players on non-local teams. It's an asinine system.
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Part of the issue in my eyes is also how expansive the number of voters are now...

awards until the late 90s were generally pretty well voted on overall. Look at the number of voters then vs now...

There should not be 1700 voters when there are 31 teams.
 
Beef Invictus said:
It's a stupid standard that gives one player credit for a team's accomplishments.

No player should be elevated over another just because he happened to play in the right place at the right time.
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This isn’t a matter of simply giving MacLeish credit for team accomplishments.

It’s a matter of giving MacLeish credit for two insanely great playoff performances that were a HUGE part of two Cup championships. Championships that would not have been won without MacLeish’s incredible play.

Damn right I think that deserves to be part of his evaluation rather than ignored.
 
Beef Invictus said:
It's a stupid standard that gives one player credit for a team's accomplishments.

No player should be elevated over another just because he happened to play in the right place at the right time.
Click to expand...

I’d like to believe that it’s more nuanced than that, but I honestly don’t know.

I think it comes down to those who were not in a favourable situation - say Giroux - have a higher threshold to entry.

Regardless of how we feel about the players, or the teams, or the circumstances, the hard cold truth is that G has won exactly zero things in his career at both the individual and team levels. So the HOF board will have to look at other things, like character, contribution to the game or his team, or purely raw point totals in comparison with his contemporaries.
 
Ghosts Beer said:
This isn’t a matter of simply giving MacLeish credit for team accomplishments.

It’s a matter of giving MacLeish credit for two insanely great playoff performances that were a HUGE part of two Cup championships. Championships that would not have been won without MacLeish’s incredible play.

Damn right I think that deserves to be part of his evaluation rather than ignored.
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He isn't the reason his team was in that position, though. 2/3 of the games were played with him on the bench watching. I think we should avoid undue credit for two small sample sizes. Giroux was pretty damned heroic in his one attempt too, and it isn't by any of his shortcomings that they lost and haven't been back.

I'm not saying ignore them, but when it comes to determining who is better on a 1 to 1 basis one has to account for the situations they were given.
 
Braun: 11 pts, 46 games (2:38 total pp time)
Subban: 11 pts, 51 games (120:47 pp time)
 
Appleyard said:
Part of the issue in my eyes is also how expansive the number of voters are now...

awards until the late 90s were generally pretty well voted on overall. Look at the number of voters then vs now...

There should not be 1700 voters when there are 31 teams.
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Well there aren't 1700 voters, that's total voting points. But this is a good idea. For example, the Hart voting pool used to be 15-50ish people. 171 voted last year.

I'm glad they're making the votes public finally. It was a big step.

John Boruk got a vote. :laugh:
 
So this is pretty interesting. Nashville got two 2nds from NJ in the Subban trade, and they traded the 2019 2nd (#34 overall) to the Philadelphia Flyers for #45 and #65.

So we got Bobby Brink with the Devils pick. #45 came from trading down from #11 to #14 and taking York, and #65 was another Devils pick that Hextall got from Edmonton for Cooper Marody (who has 17 points in 30 AHL games this season).

34Bobby Brink
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CAug 15, 2024
Jun 22, 2019
Philadelphia Flyers Acquire:
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2019 2nd round pick (NJD - #34 - Bobby Brink)		Nashville Predators Acquire:
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2019 2nd round pick (ARI - #45 - Egor Afanasyev)
2019 3rd round pick (NJD - #65 - Alexander Campbell)
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[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Jun 22, 2019
Nashville Predators Acquire:
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Steven Santini
Jeremy Davies
2019 2nd round pick (NJD - #34 - Bobby Brink)
2020 2nd round pick (NJD)		New Jersey Devils Acquire:
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P.K. Subban
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It’s not about just being on a successful team, but consideration is and should be given to players who drive a successful team. Guys like Macleish, Clarke and Parent were those types of guys. It’s not like people are calling for Moose DuPont or Ross Lonsberry to go into the Hall or that they’re better players than Giroux.

It’s why a guy like Marcel Dionne will never be in the conversation for the top 10 centers of all time. What you do in the playoffs matters. It’s not always fair, but it’s pro sports and winning basically is everything.
 
JojoTheWhale said:
Awards/Trophies are only worth as much as the opinions of the people voting for them. This is a major problem in the case of the PHWA voting for leaguewide awards. They'll usually get the layups right -- Crosby's great, Ovechkin's great, etc. That's about it.

I don't even blame them. It's not their jobs to evaluate players on non-local teams. It's an asinine system.
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I get using statistics to help combat this but the issue is majority of the writers use basic statistics without really great depth to them.

Like for example the year they voted Hall over Giroux for MVP. Hall was like 40 points higher than his next teammate in scoring that year. Giroux had like Voracek, Couturier, & Gostisbehere that scored relatively high too. But the Devils & Flyers as a team scored at similar rates. The bottom of the Devils scored much more than the Flyers roster.

But McDavid should have won it anyway over both. I don’t really care for the team didn’t make the playoffs argument.
 
JojoTheWhale said:
This could easily be true. The Devils are shooting 2.x% on the PP with Subban on the ice. He's orders of magnitude off of any reasonable expected Shooting%.
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If rumors of a major lingering neck injury are true then the shooting issue may not be something that reverts, either.
 
Appleyard said:
Around ~20-25 players born in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s have been induced for each birth decade.

1970s is at 13 and: Jagr, Thornton, Iginla, Datsyuk, Alfredsson, Chara, Hossa, Elias... will get in too. Which is 21. (Marleau probably will even though he does not deserve to.)

Realistically 20 players or thereabouts born in the 80s should get in off current standards. It is hard to place Giroux lower than ~12-13th or so in 80s born players in my eyes.

Crosby
Ovechkin
Malkin
Kane
Lundqvist
Zetterberg
H. Sedin
D. Sedin
Bergeron
Getzlaf
Backstrom
Toews
Keith
Kopitar
Giroux

is 15 guys... all who probably should/will get in.

After them? Burns, Suter, Weber, Staal, Kessel, Spezza, Kovalchuk... now those guys are/should be realistically the "fringe" group who might get in/might not.
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This of course is overlooking the fact that the league is much bigger now. There were 6 teams in the league for most of the NHL's history. You're talking about going from more than 2 Hall of Famers per team to less than 1 for every two teams.

The 1959-60 Habs won the Stanley Cup and had 8 Hall of Famers. That team used 23 players all year, with 1 of them being a goalie who played 1 game and 3 other guys playing a total of 18 games. Every player on the roster was born in Canada.

Last year's Blues used 35 players, 31 of whom played more than 10 games, from 5 different countries.

The population of Canada in 1960 was 17.9 million people. Today it's 37.6 million people, and the NHL now includes players from much bigger countries like the United States, Germany and Russia, and also gets many players from the Czech Republic, Sweden and Finland.

Also, it's undeniable I think that the level of skill has risen each decade. Even in a much smaller league, there are many players from 1960 who could not play in today's NHL. The league has gotten exponentially bigger and better and tougher to compete in.
 
JojoTheWhale said:
This could easily be true. The Devils are shooting 2.x% on the PP with Subban on the ice. He's orders of magnitude off of any reasonable expected Shooting%.
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Yup, with him on the ice they've only scored 3 PP goals and had 4 shorthanded scored against. As a team they have the 3rd most shorthanded goals against in the league with 8.
 
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