2019/20 Roster Thread XXX - AKA the Ghost Thread

[Beef Invictus]

+/- is not a measure of defensive quality.

Playing in front of Parent tends to boost one's +/- as well.

 

[Appleyard]

+/- is not a measure of defensive quality.

Yeh, I mean, MacLish was very good.

But his defence was... hmm... mediocre when observed. Even his team mates and coaches said/would say the same.

 

[Striiker]

I mean, the problem with some of the older generations is they over-romantisise the mid 70s to mid 90s, because it was a consistently high scoring era where players could have the equivalent of 50-55 point down years these days and the totals would still look nice even though they were 60-80th in league scoring...

This is where you really nailed the entire conversation.

 

[Striiker]

Playing in front of Parent tends to boost one's +/- as well.

Yup, just playing on a good team does too.

Just as a quick example, over the past 3 years Couturier is 16th in +/-... meanwhile above him are 5 members of the Lightning, Kucherov, Cirelli, Point, Hedman, and Killorn. Are they all better defensive players than Couturier? Nope.

 

[Appleyard]

Eras matter, but at his peak, 73-78, Macleish scored 468 (222 goals) points in 442 games and 78 (38 goals, 8 game winners) points in 66 playoff games. That’s pretty impressive in any era.

It is impressive.

but from 73-78 he was also:

20th in NHL in points
16th in NHL in points-per-game

a very good 6 year prime.

But let us look at Giroux.

2010-16:

1st in NHL in points
5th in NHL in points-per-game

and those 6 years dont include 2 of his best 5 seasons... (including maybe his best...)

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's also worth pointing out the positive impact of excellent coaching. Shero's use of the short shift was a literal game changer. They were running up to 3 shifts to the opposition's 1. They wore down and battered teams which generated goals. Goalies had to be more physically and mentally alert than they had been before. That generated goals.

if only Giroux had benefited from revolutionary coaching.

 

[Tripod]

lol...."yeah era's matter" then posts points vs games played.

It's is crazy how unappreciated a 3 time top 3 scorer, 3 time top 4 Hart finisher, and top 4 decade scorer is by his own fanbase.

Apparently not a top 6 player on the old Flyers teams.

 

[Philly Fanatik]

He's not pushing Clarke or MacLeish off of the center spot. He also wouldn't push Barber, Leach, Dornhoefer or Lonsberry off of a wing.

The 70’s were TOO violent of an era for Giroux! Different hockey!

More often, apparently. There are some that acknowledge it and some that just outright ignore it even when Appleyard calls it out.

Coincidentally, that same person tends to also ignore aspects of statistics in all of their arguments here, too. So, yay consistency, at least?

Media and fans paintbrush player with statistics from analytics... but the stat that everyone who has ever a Stanley Cup cares about is...WINNING!
Take say:Wayne Gretzky (Winner)
:Mario Lemieux (Winner)
: Bryan Trottier (Winner)
:Henri Richard (Winner)
:Joe Nieuwendyk (Winner)
:Steve Yzerman ( Winner)
:Joe Sakic (Winner)
And... :Sidney Crosby (Winner and a Winer)
Nothing else mattered!

 

[Ghosts Beer]

MacLeish did all that on the 2nd line, not as the go-to top-minute #1C.

I’m not arguing that there isn’t a debate to be had. Those who think G ranks above MacLeish, that’s your prerogative. My only point is it’s subjective, not objective.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The 70’s were TOO violent of an era for Giroux! Different hockey!

Media and fans paintbrush player with statistics from analytics... but the stat that everyone who has ever a Stanley Cup cares about is...WINNING!
Take say:Wayne Gretzky (Winner)
:Mario Lemieux (Winner)
: Bryan Trottier (Winner)
:Henri Richard (Winner)
:Joe Nieuwendyk (Winner)
:Steve Yzerman ( Winner)
:Joe Sakic (Winner)
And... :Sidney Crosby (Winner and a Winer)
Nothing else mattered!

Stanley Cups are just about the worst possible metric to judge individual performance, unless you plan on giving those players credit for GMing and Coaching their teams too.

 

[flyersnorth]

Article 12 of the NHL HOF by-law states the following in terms of criteria:

"A candidate for election as an Honoured Member in the player category shall be chosen on the basis of his or her playing ability, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to his or her team or teams and to the game of hockey in general."

Based on that, I could see it going either way.

Here's the last 5 years of player inductees:

Carbonneau, Zubov, Brodeur, M. St. Louis, Andreychuck, Kariya, Recchi, Selanne, Lindros, Makarov, Vachon, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Housley, Pronger.

Does Giroux belong among them? Or a better question, does Giroux, in comparison to his contemporaries, belong?

Let's say there are 8-10 players from this era (past decade) that get the nod - does G stand out enough?

A quick short list might look like Keith, Kane, Crosby, Ovechkin, Lundqvist, McDavid, Doughty, Bergeron, Chara, Sedins (one or both), Stamkos...

Mike Richards would be on there but the flame out might affect him.

 

[Appleyard]

Sure, there’s lots of differences, pluses and minuses.

That’s my point though, they were very different leagues so scoring comparisons have to be viewed a certain way.

Yep, you really have to examine what players did vs their peers and the league at the time. There is not much other way to evaluate it...

and to note, I dont think the gulf between the 1970s and todays hockey is half as big as some people propose.

Guy LaFleur was still a 2nd liner at 38-39 years old in a league that included a rookie Jaromir Jagr...

 

[Beef Invictus]

MacLeish did all that on the 2nd line, not as the go-to top-minute #1C.

I’m not arguing that there isn’t a debate to be had. Those who think G ranks above MacLeish, that’s your prerogative. My only point is it’s subjective, not objective.

Top quality players finish with top quality results. Playing behind Crosby never slowed Malkin down, for example. If MacLeish is really in that tier, it shouldn't have had too much impact on him either. After all, he was playing with lots of talent still. Per some people here, he was playing with two guys better than Claude Giroux, so one would expect him to be finishing high relative to the league.

Giroux has done better relative to the league than MacLeish did.

 

[Psuhockey]

All this talk of team achievements when judging an individuals career and HoF/retired-number-worthiness is really depressing. I understand that it matters to the clueless voters, so you guys are probably right, but it obviously shouldn't.

Team achievements should have nothing to do with discussing the quality of individuals, just like individual achievements have nothing to do with discussing the quality of teams.

It’s absolutely shouldn’t. Put Toews on the flyers and Giroux on the Blackhawks and no one would ever talk about captain Canada. Hell if Philly wins the lottery for Kane, the Flyers likely win the cup instead of Chicago and Toews likely is viewed on the same level as ROR.

But the hall of fame is a popularity contest and all popularity contests are stupid and subjective.

 

[Philly Fanatik]

Yeah, that's pretty important...

There's a big difference between scoring on this...

and this...

This dude wasn’t worried about statistics...Only winning!
Wouldn’t know his career goals against...but those rings tell everything!

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

View attachment 315963 This dude wasn’t worried about statistics...Only winning!
Wouldn’t know his career goals against...but those rings tell everything!

Let's not let this conversation get so tornadic that we start slurping off Grant ****ing Fuhr, m'kay? ****'s sake.

 

[Philly Fanatik]

Stanley Cups are just about the worst possible metric to judge individual performance, unless you plan on giving those players credit for GMing and Coaching their teams too.

You play a team game to win a championship!
Numbers reveal WHAT?
Case in point; Who cares about winning the scoring race at the World Juniors every year?
The object is to bring home GOLD!

 

[Beef Invictus]

You play a team game to win a championship!
Numbers reveal WHAT?
Case in point; Who cares about winning the scoring race at the World Juniors every year?
The object is to bring home GOLD!

No one player determines if a team wins. It's a team effort. This isn't the NBA. Guys are only playing for 1/3 of the game.

 

[Striiker]

It’s absolutely shouldn’t. Put Toews on the flyers and Giroux on the Blackhawks and no one would ever talk about captain Canada. Hell if Philly wins the lottery for Kane, the Flyers likely win the cup instead of Chicago and Toews likely is viewed on the same level as ROR.

But the hall of fame is a popularity contest and all popularity contests are stupid and subjective.

You’re 100% right and it’s disappointing that this is the case. People judge based on all the wrong things and ignore the context that actually matters.

That’s why I don’t care about the HoF or any player awards, the fact that they’re voted on by clowns devalues them. I only hope our players win them because I’m sure it’d mean a lot to them.

 

[Philly Fanatik]

No one player determines if a team wins. It's a team effort. This isn't the NBA. Guys are only playing for 1/3 of the game.

Correct

 

[lancer247]

It is impressive.

but from 73-78 he was also:

20th in NHL in points
16th in NHL in points-per-game

a very good 6 year prime.

But let us look at Giroux.

2010-16:

1st in NHL in points
5th in NHL in points-per-game

and those 6 years dont include 2 of his best 5 seasons... (including maybe his best...)

Are MacLeish’s number any more impressive in an 18 team league? Playing the stacked teams in MTL, BOS, NY, BUF, TOR that many more times?

I think you can look at numbers some players put up that ring hollow (Abreau and Leberthal come to mind) but taking into consideration the number of game winning goals against top talent mitigates quite a bit of the era debate.

I didn’t read back because I have a deadline but I am not saying this at the detriment of Giroux. I think he is one the all time underrated players in this town because of the sport he plays and the team’s management.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Correct

So giving undue credit to individual players for being on a winning team is a poor approach to judgement.


Let's not forget that Yzerman was seen as a vile choker for the first half of his career. Amazing how that changed when he had a better team.

 

[Philly Fanatik]

You’re 100% right and it’s disappointing that this is the case. People judge based on all the wrong things and ignore the context that actually matters.

That’s why I don’t care about the HoF or any player awards, the fact that they’re voted on by clowns devalues them. I only hope our players win them because I’m sure it’d mean a lot to them.

Love for our players to win a Stanley Cup again!

 

[Appleyard]

Article 12 of the NHL HOF by-law states the following in terms of criteria:

"A candidate for election as an Honoured Member in the player category shall be chosen on the basis of his or her playing ability, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to his or her team or teams and to the game of hockey in general."

Based on that, I could see it going either way.

Here's the last 5 years of player inductees:

Carbonneau, Zubov, Brodeur, M. St. Louis, Andreychuck, Kariya, Recchi, Selanne, Lindros, Makarov, Vachon, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Housley, Pronger.

Does Giroux belong among them? Or a better question, does Giroux, in comparison to his contemporaries, belong?

Let's say there are 8-10 players from this era (past decade) that get the nod - does G stand out enough?

A quick short list might look like Keith, Kane, Crosby, Ovechkin, Lundqvist, McDavid, Doughty, Bergeron, Chara, Sedins (one or both), Stamkos...

Mike Richards would be on there but the flame out might affect him.

Around ~20-25 players born in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s have been induced for each birth decade.

1970s is at 13 and: Jagr, Thornton, Iginla, Datsyuk, Alfredsson, Chara, Hossa, Elias... will get in too. Which is 21. (Marleau probably will even though he does not deserve to.)

Realistically 20 players or thereabouts born in the 80s should get in off current standards. It is hard to place Giroux lower than ~12-13th or so in 80s born players in my eyes.

Crosby
Ovechkin
Malkin
Kane
Lundqvist
Zetterberg
H. Sedin
D. Sedin
Bergeron
Getzlaf
Backstrom
Toews
Keith
Kopitar
Giroux

is 15 guys... all who probably should/will get in.

After them? Burns, Suter, Weber, Staal, Kessel, Spezza, Kovalchuk... now those guys are/should be realistically the "fringe" group who might get in/might not.

 

[Philly Fanatik]

So giving undue credit to individual players for being on a winning team is a poor approach to judgement.


Let's not forget that Yzerman was seen as a vile choker for the first half of his career. Amazing how that changed when he had a better team.

Yzerman never took a practice off,a game off and a shift off!
Third highest point total in a single NHL season other than #99 and #66...
Oops...threw out numbers!