2019/20 Roster Thread XXX - AKA the Ghost Thread

[Starat327]

Problem there is they are a business and have to make money also. I hear a lot of griping about the Sharks and what they just did by adding a small 4200 seat arena in San Jose for their AHL team. The only way I see that working is if they are planning on the player/team staff salaries being totally fronted by the money from the Sharks NHL revenues and that the arena during game nights is packed and selling tons of concessions to support the game day operations stuff. But then that puts a strain on the cash incoming from the Sharks and probably also isn't allowed totally by the NHL bargaining due to revenue sharing.

Understood, but you can ice a competitive team while also playing meaningful hockey. I was obviously being hyperbolic when i said they can finish dead last, but I think the thought remains the same. Not everyone is going to make the jump in one year, or two. And you obviously need a few AHL 'lifers', but the setup and organization of the team should be congruent with the NHL team they are 'supplying' talent to.

 

[flyersnorth]

This could be said about a lot of teams in the NHL. There are probably only 7 teams right now that are definite sellers.

Right. I just mean that if we lose 5 of the next 6 or 7, and have fallen 8 points out of WC2, priorities start to look a little different.

 

[Appleyard]

I do like a buy low possibility on Jankowski though... but he is an RFA and given the fact he has proven can play 3rd line over 2 years unless get him for super cheap dont "love" giving away an asset and not giving him a QO.

But not sure Calgary give away a full-time player when v.likely going to the playoffs...

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Yup, that's what people are asking for. To act like the Oilers. Take all of our decent prospect and put them into high impact roles, after signing their ELCs at 18 with no veteran support around.

Totally comparable situations. Absolutely no good veteran support around this team either. Total dumpster fire of a roster at every other position and we are just going to throw Frost into that.

Yup totally comparable. Totally comparable how the Flyers and Oilers have drafted too. Look at all those high end defensive prospect the Oilers took to solidify their back line first. Yup the exact same.

And look at all the careers they have ruined by playing guys to early, Ebrele, Hall, Dria, McDavid, RNH, Nurse. All clearly would have been hall of famers if they just for some AHL time. Totally compares to us ruining guys like TK, Ivan, etc.

It's almost like they're is way more to building a team that the Oilers couldn't get right. But at the same time fast tracking those guys didn't ruin them. Its almost like the NHL over the last 10 years has a massive sample size of young highly touted prospects joining non dumpster fires and then having a very positive impact on their teams.

But yeah people are saying be the Oilers. Create an absolute **** show dumpster fire of a team and then blame the rookies when they cant single handedly drag the team out of the long term hell hole they were thrust into.

TLDR acting as if the last 15 years of the Oilers comes down to any single thing is ****ing dumb and make Ghostbeer look like a dumbass for acting like that was a simple situation.

/endrant

Great post.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Here's a hot take for you. The AHL is the last place I want to send a premium prospect. The quality of hockey and coaching is terrible. Injury risk is much higher than overseas. I'd rather have the player develop than worry about getting him "in house."

I know there are CBA issues with this statement, but I'm speaking philosophically only.

I see alot of people argue against development in the AHL, or call "marinating" an archaic way of thinking.

But then, often, you hear some player talking years down the road about hoe getting sent down was the best thing. They surely didn't realize it at the time, but admit in hindsight it was the smarter move

 

[dragonoffrost]

I see alot of people argue against development in the AHL, or call "marinating" an archaic way of thinking.

But then, often, you hear some player talking years down the road about hoe getting sent down was the best thing. They surely didn't realize it at the time, but admit in hindsight it was the smarter move

This is why I bring up Hart. He has been very open about how the time in Lehigh let him start to make the change from WHL player with a billet family, to Pro hockey player living with a teammates family but still having an adjustment to being in a different league with some grown men, to on his own in an apartment owned by Jake where Jake told him to buy a f***ing bed and not worry about rent.

 

[Striiker]

As usual, people want action for the sake of action. That's why they're such huge Fletcher fans, I guess.

We have Frost. Adding someone from the outside instead of giving him a spot makes no sense. Why give up assets for something we may not need. And we definitely don't need to give up assets for a 4C, of all things. Bringing up Frost solves that problem too, because adding him would push Laughton back down to the 4th line where he belongs.

As for as "rushing players to the NHL ruins them", can someone provide proof that any of these players who were "ruined" would have turned out better if they played longer in the AHL? It's probably happened at some point to somebody, but nobody can say for sure because you don't know what would have happened if they were handled differently. Maybe they were just never going to be successful, AHL or not.

It's an especially dumb thing to worry about for a player like Frost who has already proved he can play at the NHL level. He just needs to play and get more experience, which can happen in the NHL just as well as the AHL, if not ever better.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I see alot of people argue against development in the AHL, or call "marinating" an archaic way of thinking.

But then, often, you hear some player talking years down the road about hoe getting sent down was the best thing. They surely didn't realize it at the time, but admit in hindsight it was the smarter move

What I was arguing against is specifically the AHL environment in most orgs, not pre-NHL developmental time. It undoubtedly helps some and is wasted on others.

There are so many options out there now. I wish they could be utilized.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

To be fair, Fletch simply ran out of goalie options last year, and I would bet my house that if we had two (and not EIGHT) stable goalies on the team, Hart wouldn't have sniffed the NHL. It's not to say he wouldn't have done well, because we now have hindsight to say he did more than well - he was excellent.

But they wouldn't have felt the need to rush him up.

It's not an exact science.

I'd love to have Frost up here, and it makes sense to me. But whatever, it's not my call, and I just need to be patient lol.

It's not an exact science but since Hart is capable of playing at the NHL level is it fair to say having him play in a less challenging league when he should be learning against stronger competition would have been the wrong decision?

Would it have helped him if he was still in the AHL at this point likely putting up not stellar numbers because the team in front of him is hot garbage?

This is why lots of people say over baking can be detrimental.

 

[Striiker]

It's not an exact science but since Hart is capable of playing at the NHL level is it fair to say having him play in a less challenging league when he should be learning against stronger competition would have been the wrong decision?

Would it have helped him if he was still in the AHL at this point likely putting up not stellar numbers because the team in front of him is hot garbage?

This is why lots of people say over baking can be detrimental.

He needed to stay in the AHL to get bigger and stronger so he could handle board battles.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

I see alot of people argue against development in the AHL, or call "marinating" an archaic way of thinking.

But then, often, you hear some player talking years down the road about hoe getting sent down was the best thing. They surely didn't realize it at the time, but admit in hindsight it was the smarter move

I've also heard tons of players say they know they were ready but they never got their chance.

It's almost like you should take those quotes with a grain of salt.

 

[Curufinwe]

Wow..shocker. Dave Scott just said exactly what I did all along. Playoffs or bust. The playoffs are a different season. They need to add a center

They are not a playoff team as of today. They only have a 55% chance of making the playoffs. And it could be significantly lower after this weekend.

 

[dragonoffrost]

It's not an exact science but since Hart is capable of playing at the NHL level is it fair to say having him play in a less challenging league when he should be learning against stronger competition would have been the wrong decision?

Would it have helped him if he was still in the AHL at this point likely putting up not stellar numbers because the team in front of him is hot garbage?

This is why lots of people say over baking can be detrimental.

I don't think they planned on overbaking either Hart or Frost. I think they wanted a full season for each and then would be ready to bring them up as long as they didn't shit the bed in the AHL.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

As usual, people want action for the sake of action. That's why they're such huge Fletcher fans, I guess.

We have Frost. Adding someone from the outside instead of giving him a spot makes no sense. Why give up assets for something we may not need. And we definitely don't need to give up assets for a 4C, of all things. Bringing up Frost solves that problem too, because adding him would push Laughton back down to the 4th line where he belongs.

As for as "rushing players to the NHL ruins them", can someone provide proof that any of these players who were "ruined" would have turned out better if they played longer in the AHL? It's probably happened at some point to somebody, but nobody can say for sure because you don't know what would have happened if they were handled differently. Maybe they were just never going to be successful, AHL or not.

It's an especially dumb thing to worry about for a player like Frost who has already proved he can play at the NHL level. He just needs to play and get more experience, which can happen in the NHL just as well as the AHL, if not ever better.

I thought our very, very excellent and experienced coaching staff was excellent and experienced enough to not ruin players when they were called up, and maybe even improve them, but as you know, the NHL is not a developmental league. It would be infinitely better to plug in another team's castoff garbage and just rumble away at a title challenge because the Blues did it once and that's really the only thing we know will work.

In other words, stop being such a Hextall fanboi until you promise to quit being a fan if they don't win a round in the playoffs this season and thereby make all our dreams come true.

 

[bobbythebrain]

I'm always baffled by the case of "he needs development". Take a look at a comparable - Robert Thomas of the Blues. guy played 70 games for them last season, mostly in a 3rd line W or 4th line C role, pots 30 points, and while not a 'key' to the Blues success, there were plays i remember him making that were important plays throughout the game. He's currently 20, and was taken 7 spots before Morgan Frost. He didnt have to be a key contributor on the NHL team to be a contributor to a stanley cup winning team.

None of us can speak to whether he (or the blues) would have been better off with him on the team vs of of it and spending last year in the AHL. But I'd like to think its not outlandish to think that he learned a lot more playing smaller minutes against real competition than he would have playing in the AHL.

St Louis was starving for wins and also called up Kyrou, but sent him down. They kept the more mature player.

We've pretty much did the same w Frost and Farabee.

So pointing out the Thomas situation as good development and ours as bad decision making seems like shiny new toy syndrome

Clearly our coaches letting Farabee, Nak and Myers work thru the NHL shows they have some handle also on development.

 

[Striiker]

I've also heard tons of players say they know they were ready but they never got their chance.

It's almost like you should take those quotes with a grain of salt.

Also it’s hilarious to act like players supporting the decision of their bosses is anything other than being smart enough to not cause a problem with the media.

As if the players would say “yeah, the GM is dumb and I should’ve been up way earlier”.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

I don't think they planned on overbaking either Hart or Frost. I think they wanted a full season for each and then would be ready to bring them up as long as they didn't **** the bed in the AHL.

1) we dont know how they decide their development time tables or if they have a specific one.

2) its doubtful Hart could have put together good enough stats this year or last in the AHL to force their hand. This is largely due to team play.

3) once a player is good enough to perform in the NHL everything else is over baking. TK or Provorov going to the AHL for 3 months would have been over baking. Once a young guy can play find him a spot unless he is blocked by a clearly superior talent.

 

[dragonoffrost]

I thought our very, very excellent and experienced coaching staff was excellent and experienced enough to not ruin players when they were called up, and maybe even improve them, but as you know, the NHL is not a developmental league. It would be infinitely better to plug in another team's castoff garbage and just rumble away at a title challenge because the Blues did it once and that's really the only thing we know will work.

In other words, stop being such a Hextall fanboi until you promise to quit being a fan if they don't win a round in the playoffs this season and thereby make all our dreams come true.

Being a Hextall fan boi is the zenith of wanting to over marinate a player in the AHL though. He wasn't calling up Hart and he went through how many trash heap goalies?

At least this year (other than the biceps disaster) where is the Pickard, McKenna level forward on this roster that was over 24?

 

[Curufinwe]

I don't know if them only realizing NAK should be an everyday player after making him the 8th forward callup was a great sign, tbh. He only got a shot because Lindblom got cancer.

Twarynski, Bunnaman, Stewart, Vorobyev, Andreoff, Rubtsov and Kase all played before NAK did.

 

[Rebels57]

If the solutions are Thompson & Lewis you’re better off doing nothing especially if you’re paying like a third round pick for something like that.

I wouldn't take Thompson for free.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Also it’s hilarious to act like players supporting the decision of their bosses is anything other than being smart enough to not cause a problem with the media.

As if the players would say “yeah, the GM is dumb and I should’ve been up way earlier”.

Seriously. It's like if I had a conversation with you about your boss in front of your boss. Then used it as proof that all bosses must know what their doing because of the things you said about yours.

Did people not watch the Ottawa uber video? I bet I could find a thousand quotes from those guys that surprise surprise have a very positive tone.

 

[TB87]

Hi it's Twitter

He’s one of the kings of shit takes on Flyers twitter

 

[landsbergfan]

I don't know if them only realizing NAK should be an everyday player after making him the 8th forward callup was a great sign, tbh. He only got a shot because Lindblom got cancer.

Twarynski, Bunnaman, Stewart, Vorobyev, Andreoff, Rubtsov and Kase all played before NAK did.

He ended up being the best because he got the most development time in the AHL

 

[dragonoffrost]

I don't know if them only realizing NAK should be an everyday player after making him the 8th forward callup was a great sign, tbh. He only got a shot because Lindblom got cancer.

It seems they have a decided role for what they want on line 4. We may not like it but that's the way 90% of NHL teams run. It's not a goon line like it was but it still has a defined role. Also remember to exclude Bunny/Misha/Germ/Andreoff??? as they are centers going through that carousel of not filling the job properly not wings...

 

[Striiker]

I thought our very, very excellent and experienced coaching staff was excellent and experienced enough to not ruin players when they were called up, and maybe even improve them, but as you know, the NHL is not a developmental league. It would be infinitely better to plug in another team's castoff garbage and just rumble away at a title challenge because the Blues did it once and that's really the only thing we know will work.

In other words, stop being such a Hextall fanboi until you promise to quit being a fan if they don't win a round in the playoffs this season and thereby make all our dreams come true.

Yeah, I’m surprised our extremely smart and experienced and coaching staff isn’t trusted to develop a high potential player like Frost.