2019/20 Roster Thread XXIX

[Magua]

If the Flyers don't acquire a mediocre or overrated or cost inefficient player for the 3rd line that might not be or isn't as good as what we already have in the organization.......





......we riot.

From Meltzer...

Perhaps the most disappointing part of the now-completed road swing was the fact that young players who seemed to be turning the corner during the undefeated homestand -- including first-round picks Morgan Frost and German Rubtsov as well as second-rounder Isaac Ratcliffe -- regressed during the road trip. Kase's play in response to being a healthy scratch for one game was the main highlight among the younger players on the Phantoms.

It's almost like playing on a poor team, with poor structure, poor coaching, and underperforming veterans is NOT a good environment for development and an easy path to bad habits, stagnation, regression.

Setting up a player for failure and then complaining about those failures in a vacuum.......not good!

 

[Beef Invictus]

Jeff Carter. They won a cup

Nash went to the 2nd round after trading away Jones

So we have two examples in the last decade, and both from teams with a more stacked defense than we currently have.

That sounds about right. We aren't in the position of Nashville or LA. And Ghost is better than the other dmen involved.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Nevermind that Seth Jones was a rookie i beliebe (maybe 2nd year), playing on a team that had a stacked prospect pool coming, which made the trade explainable at the time. Context, however, seemd to be ignored around here.

But even then Jones is/has been the superior player by a fair margin since that trade. Johansen is a meh 2C with an $8M caphit while Jones is probably a top 5ish defensemen in the league on a cheaper contract.

It’s not like a JVR for Schenn type of backfire but Nashville took the bath on this one.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Nevermind that Seth Jones was a rookie i beliebe (maybe 2nd year), playing on a team that had a stacked prospect pool coming, which made the trade explainable at the time. Context, however, seemd to be ignored around here.

He asked, I answered.

You can context any trade to death and take a position.

You want context? Ghost hasn't provided good hockey for awhile. Skip the argument why...we know it. And currently the new coach isn't using him to his potential either...that is context. Argue all you want if you agree w/ AV or not, but his current role isn't moving any needles

Now more context for you. A player like Eller moves the envelope for his team when he is NOT on the ice w the best players

Ghost has shown he compliments the team when he's on the ice w/ the best players, and doesn't really push much of an envelope when he's not

IMO I know what position I deem more important in a playoff run. I'll take the more self sufficient player

 

[kudymen]

Context, however, seemd to be ignored around here.

Context is for fascists. Are you saying you are a fascist?

 

[Magua]

Morgan Frost will eventually come back up -- at center or even wing. Not many teams can roll Couturier-Giroux-Hayes down the middle, worst case scenario. And Nolan Patrick can just be the wild card he is.

Right now, I'm more worried about the Hayes line wingers than I am a 3rd center.

Context, however, seemd to be ignored around here.

Context is for fascists. Are you saying you are a fascist?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

But even then Jones is/has been the superior player by a fair margin since that trade. Johansen is a meh 2C with an $8M caphit while Jones is probably a top 5ish defensemen in the league on a cheaper contract.

It’s not like a JVR for Schenn type of backfire but Nashville took the bath on this one.

I should also add they’ve felt the need to invest in Turris & Duchene since then too while investing a lot of capspace &/or trade assets to do so between the three. Jones & Girard have been better players than the guys they were traded for awhile being much cheaper in capspace.

 

[bobbythebrain]

So we have two examples in the last decade, and both from teams with a more stacked defense than we currently have.

That sounds about right. We aren't in the position of Nashville or LA. And Ghost is better than the other dmen involved.

Henrique/Vatanen

 

[Starat327]

But even then Jones is/has been the superior player by a fair margin since that trade. Johansen is a meh 2C with an $8M caphit while Jones is probably a top 5ish defensemen in the league on a cheaper contract.

It’s not like a JVR for Schenn type of backfire but Nashville took the bath on this one.

Sure. I sisnt say they won the trade. I sont often believe in such things, because a player for player strict evaluation is often misguided. The ripple effects of a trade cant often be quantified, which is the problem of evaluation win vs loss.

However, since that trade, the predators finished:

8th in the WC ( went to SC Finals)
1st in the WC ( lost to the jets in semien, 4-3)
3rd in the WC (Lost to stars)

And the jackets have:

3rd In EC ( Pens)
7th in EC (caps)
8th in EC (Bruins 2nd round)

The caveat here is that the preds traded Jones, and have maintained a top 4 of jose, subban[recently traded, sub Fabbro]) ekholm and Ellis, while they also had Girard to throw away in a trade, as well.

Meanwhile, the jackets are still desperately searching for a top 6C to replace the Johansen they lost.

So, preds lost a potential top pair D, gained a top 6 C, and mostly stayed the same. Didnt lose much ( who knows what Jones becomes on that team), but sisnt gain much in terms of progress.

Jackets gained a top pair D, and their playoff success increased, meanwhile, they gave up inarguably their most dynamic forward in... years.

Do I need to explain further here, or are we all kind if aligned?

 

[TB87]

Are we still seriously in stubborn denial about quality of teammates having a significant impact on point production? Am I reading this right or am I a crazy person?

Seriously, this impacts every NHL player not named: McDavid, Crosby, or MacKinnon.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I'd strongly prefer to be on the side getting a high end Forward for a high end Defenseman. The catch is how you define high end. It's a lot easier to find available functional Defensemen than Forwards because the league as a whole doesn't evaluate them as well. Replacement level is also much closer to the top with D.

RyJo would not have qualified for that at any point in his career for me.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Sure. I sisnt say they won the trade. I sont often believe in such things, because a player for player strict evaluation is often misguided. The ripple effects of a trade cant often be quantified, which is the problem of evaluation win vs loss.

However, since that trade, the predators finished:

8th in the WC ( went to SC Finals)
1st in the WC ( lost to the jets in semien, 4-3)
3rd in the WC (Lost to stars)

And the jackets have:

3rd In EC ( Pens)
7th in EC (caps)
8th in EC (Bruins 2nd round)

The caveat here is that the preds traded Jones, and have maintained a top 4 of jose, subban[recently traded, sub Fabbro]) ekholm and Ellis, while they also had Girard to throw away in a trade, as well.

Meanwhile, the jackets are still desperately searching for a top 6C to replace the Johansen they lost.

So, preds lost a potential top pair D, gained a top 6 C, and mostly stayed the same. Didnt lose much ( who knows what Jones becomes on that team), but sisnt gain much in terms of progress.

Jackets gained a top pair D, and their playoff success increased, meanwhile, they gave up inarguably their most dynamic forward in... years.

Do I need to explain further here, or are we all kind if aligned?

My point is they gave up a noticeably better player who was younger & had better contract outlook than what they acquired though. I don’t really care about the records of the teams as both were set up differently at the time of the trade.

I would much rather have Seth Jones then & now over Ryan Johansen as he’s the better player regardless of what my team looks like.

I don’t care about fits in general as that’s how often bad trades are birthed from.

In regards to the Flyers current situation I don’t care about adding a top nine forward from the outside for this season. As the team is still mediocre, we spent a lot of capspace/assets on three players this offseason, & we have depth in the minors. Winning a playoff round possibly isn’t some grand achievement for me. Adding some of these names mentioned while subtracting Gostisbehere doesn’t really make that goal noticeablely more achievable this year anyway.

 

[Starat327]

My point is they gave up a noticeably better player who was younger & had better contract outlook than what they acquired though. I don’t really care about the records of the teams as both were set up differently at the time of the trade.

I would much rather have Seth Jones then & now over Ryan Johansen as he’s the better player regardless of what my team looks like.

I don’t care about fits in general as that’s how often bad trades are birthed from.

In regards to the Flyers current situation I don’t care about adding a top nine forward from the outside for this season. As the team is still mediocre, we spent a lot of capspace/assets on three players this offseason, & we have depth in the minors. Winning a playoff round possibly isn’t some grand achievement for me. Adding some of these names mentioned while subtracting Gostisbehere doesn’t really make that goal noticeablely more achievable this year anyway.

Again, I'm not saying the trade was good for the preds. I think they were dumb to make the trade -- mostly because they gave up the better player, but also because they sisnt make their team noticeably better in the process.

The jackets, meanwhile, gave up the better (or perhaps more established is a better term) players and got the better result in the end.

Again, I don't judge trades for win/loss based on player for player analysis. It's silly to assume the jackets won the trade just because jones is a better player than johansen. The jackets won that trade because jones is a better player AND he was able to lead to an elevation in the teams play, meanwhile the preds got no better (realistically) after getting johansen than they were with Jones.

We can speculate that the Preds may have been better with Jones as a 3rd pair RHD - and it probably would have been phenomenal to watch (even if he wasnt 3rd pair, maybe ellis moves to 3rd pair, I dont know]), but this is why I never hop aboard the speculate express - you never know its final destination.

 

[Magua]

Like most people here, there are Ghost trade scenarios — realistic ones — that make sense to me. But don’t trade a player just to trade a player; don’t sell low when there’s a plausible path to increasing value. At this stage, I’d say it’s robbing Peter to pay Paul — opening up another bigger hole to fill a less big one. Rentals are not prudent and long-term deals equally so. Eye on the prize.

Find me that player that exists within those parameters. Most importantly, there’s no rush. Time is on the Flyers’ side. Rushed trades or artificial deadlines are the work of fools.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Like most people here, there are Ghost trade scenarios — realistic ones — that make sense to me. But don’t trade a player just to trade a player; don’t sell low when there’s a plausible path to increasing value. At this stage, I’d say it’s robbing Peter to pay Paul — opening up another bigger hole to fill a less big one. Rentals are not prudent and long-term deals equally so. Eye on the prize.

Find me that player that exists within those parameters. Most importantly, there’s no rush. Time is on the Flyers’ side. Rushed trades or artificial deadlines are the work of fools.

Well, at least this is being done with someone besides Voracek for once

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Like most people here, there are Ghost trade scenarios — realistic ones — that make sense to me. But don’t trade a player just to trade a player; don’t sell low when there’s a plausible path to increasing value. At this stage, I’d say it’s robbing Peter to pay Paul — opening up another bigger hole to fill a less big one. Rentals are not prudent and long-term deals equally so. Eye on the prize.

Find me that player that exists within those parameters. Most importantly, there’s no rush. Time is on the Flyers’ side. Rushed trades or artificial deadlines are the work of fools.

Trade Gostisbehere for Pageau!

 

[Magua]

Trade Gostisbehere for Pageau!

 

[BiggE]

If they’re going to trade Ghost, and it’s a big f***ing if, you better damn well get a player back who is under term on a reasonable contract for at least 2 seasons beyond this one.

This should be non negotiable or Fletcher can go f*** himself

 

[Starat327]

Trade Gostisbehere for Pageau!

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

 

[Chinatown88]

Trade Gostisbehere for Pageau!

It seems like your hivemind has finally cracked.

 

[Striiker]

If Ghost gets traded his time here would have been such an insane waste of a crazy good player. Almost beyond belief.

This is a franchise that's been desperate for defensemen... so they finally find one in the 3rd round, capable of star-like offensive production, elite puck moving, good defensively, signed for cheap, and what do they do with him? f*** him over at every turn, waste him, bury him, kill his value, and then look to trade him.

We need more players like him, not less. The second we trade him we're going to be needing someone to replace him and we're not going to find someone like him for a very long time. Without him the future of our defense isn't nearly as good as people think. The worst part is what it says about the competence of our staff. If they can't even figure out how to use Ghost properly then you can expect to see Sanheim continue to get screwed over and many other players too.

It's just really disappointing to see the roster suffer like this.

 

[tictactoe]

No news on Patrick? Eh..

 

[Lord Defect]

No news on Patrick? Eh..

Excuse me, this is the ghost thread. Patrick has his own thread.

 

[tucson83]

If Ghost gets traded his time here would have been such an insane waste of a crazy good player. Almost beyond belief.

This is a franchise that's been desperate for defensemen... so they finally find one in the 3rd round, capable of star-like offensive production, elite puck moving, good defensively, signed for cheap, and what do they do with him? **** him over at every turn, waste him, bury him, kill his value, and then look to trade him.

We need more players like him, not less. The second we trade him we're going to be needing someone to replace him and we're not going to find someone like him for a very long time. Without him the future of our defense isn't nearly as good as people think. The worst part is what it says about the competence of our staff. If they can't even figure out how to use Ghost properly then you can expect to see Sanheim continue to get screwed over and many other players too.

It's just really disappointing to see the roster suffer like this.

like who mcdavid? you dont care about the team, if you are a true fan, you shouldnt care about who gets moved because he's not playing to their standards. when you make excuses for everything in the book on ghost despite the team losing and him not doing anything, you just dont care about flyers, you care about ghost.