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2019/20 Roster Thread XXIX | Page 25 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League
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2019/20 Roster Thread XXIX

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bobbythebrain said:
I wouldn't call Bortuzzo and Gunnarson a "stacked" d, but yes, the strength of Parayko and Peitrangelo makes it a strong dcore

The Kings? I recall they traded their (at the time) perceived stud dman playing 20+ min a night for Jeff Carter, and then won the cup

Chi? I recall they added Brad Richards
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Yous be hard pressed to say the kings had a stacked forward group. The kinds strength was their d ( doughty muzzling Martinez, voting, McNabb', etc.) Notice how the impact if trading Johnson was negligible because they still had a very good D core locked in for a long time?

Then they had a good, but not stacked, forward group in Kopitarx Richard's, carter and Brown. After that, you had toffoli and a bunch if good character guys.. and the main reason they won is because the team absolutely stifled offensive teams with superior defensive play.

The Hawks were a much more balanced group, having elite talent at both forward and D to achieve a much better balance.

I cant even think of a team in recent memory, outside of Pittsburtgh, whose focus was on elite offensive play and forcing the D to take a backseat. Even the capitals widened up and started focusing on defensive depth at D. Theres probably a reason for that.
 
JojoTheWhale said:
Well that's part of why I picked those three. They were paid so little that you could have offered them slightly more and probably could have gotten one at a slightly lower cap hit than Hagg with the benefit of the pick he returned. Or traded the pick for someone better.

I agree that the organizational thinking was along the lines of what you're suggesting, but as you're aware, I've never thought he was even good at the AHL level. My opinion of him as a player is certainly incomplete, but there are no signs. There are no glimmers of hope. It's a wing and a prayer and an NHL org should be able to do better than that.

There was an opportunity to work the margins. They passed that up for a long shot. I'm personally never going to be happy with that approach. I know you think there's more of a chance there's reasonable but significant improvement to come than I do, but I would guess that you don't find it a sizable one either?
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Given the situation in June, with Morin healthy and with more upside than Hagg, and both fighting for the #7 spot, signing one of these marginal D-men with zero upside would seem superfluous, they were already stashing three marginal D-men with NHL experience in LHV, did they need a fourth (and it's doubtful even with a slight overpay that one of these players would come here once they examined the roster and realized LHV was their future).

If Morin stayed healthy and beat out Hagg, Hagg would almost certainly have been traded - but crap happens.

And yes, I think Hagg has upside, less than a healthy Morin, but more than guys in their mid to late 20s who are unlikely to improve, but could fall off the proverbial cliff. Hagg needs hard coaching to learn to play within his limitations, stay at home, don't chase hits, get rid of the puck quickly, use your size to clear the crease. He is a good shot blocker and could become a passable 3rd pair defensive defenseman. And he does have offensive skills, he had 20 ES points last year and is scoring at a similar rate this year. He's got 2 years to make those incremental improvements, by 26 or so, upside evaporates.
 
Tripod said:
Adding a C is a fine move that can help us. Trading Ghost for that #3C would be just a stupid and shortsighted move.
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You trade anyone if the right deal comes along.
But to trade Ghost, you need both a 3C and a LHD who can give you 17-18 minutes on the 3rd pair.

And you don't give up someone with that kind of contract and value for rentals for this season.
It's not like we're one player away from contending for the Cup.

What is more likely is a 3rd rd pick and a 2nd tier prospect (Vorobyev, et al) for a bottom six center rental.
Minor assets for a playoff run to give kids a taste of playoff hockey to accelerate their development.
 
kudymen said:
Bottom 6 sandwiches do not matter - we should trade for a bottom 6 sandwich improvement.
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PHmG.gif
 
deadhead said:
You trade anyone if the right deal comes along.
But to trade Ghost, you need both a 3C and a LHD who can give you 17-18 minutes on the 3rd pair.

And you don't give up someone with that kind of contract and value for rentals for this season.
It's not like we're one player away from contending for the Cup.

What is more likely is a 3rd rd pick and a 2nd tier prospect (Vorobyev, et al) for a bottom six center rental.
Minor assets for a playoff run to give kids a taste of playoff hockey to accelerate their development.
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I agree with all of this.

Hence why I have mentioned a Tierney trade as an option due to the cost to acquire.....compated to the cost to add a Pageau. Plus, Tierney is not a rental so it gives us more options come the summer.
 
In more detail

2010 Niemi only had a .910 sv%, ok, but not great. However he was lucky to be facing (sadly) an even worse goalie in the finals and more importantly with Toews, Kane, Sharp, Keith, Seabrooke, Byfuglien and Hossa that Hawks team was deep and talented.

2011 Tim Thomas posted a sv% of .940, pretty much the main reason why Boston wins the Cup that season as the Bruins were a very good, but certainly not great team from top to bottom

2012 Quick is even better than Thomas was the previous season putting up a sv% of .946. With a solid, deep team in front of him, that was all LA needed

2013 Chicago was as deep and talented as anyone that year and Crawford added a playoff sv% of .932

2014 Probably the biggest outlier among the last 10 years. Quick was good, but not great (sv% .911) but the Kings were pretty deep and seemed to get some very timely goals when needed. Also the Rags weren't exactly a powerhouse foe in the finals. that year.

2015 Crawford is again strong putting up a .924 sv% and the Hawks were still pretty deep and very experienced.

2016 Murray puts up a .923 sv% and the Pens, while perhaps not the deepest team in league, had a ton of top end talent.

2017 Fleury is great in round 1, good in round 2 and struggles in round 3. Murray takes over in round 3 and from then on in is outstanding putting up a .937 sv%. Without his superlative goaltending the Pens don't get to the finals, let alone win.

2018 A very deep (Ovi, Backstrom, Kunestzov, Carlson, Oshie etc..) Caps team gets great goaltending from Holtby (sv% .922). That is how you win a Cup

2019 Another very deep, but certainly not bursting with top end talent (especially up front) team wins last year. Binnington's save pctg of .914 is not spectacular, but he made big saves and was huge when needed.

There you have it. In the modern era the Cup is usually won by a very deep team, with good talent throughout the lineup, and, most importantly, the one who gets fantastic goaltending. It's not rocket science. Hopefully over the next couple of years Hart will mature into that kind of goalie and the Flyers will have the depth to make a Cup run.
 
Tripod said:
Adding a C is a fine move that can help us. Trading Ghost for that #3C would be just a stupid and shortsighted move.
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I have never argued that usage doesn't matter, despite some strong exaggerations from a few posters. I've always maintained it's not the only thing

Usage definitely matters for ALOT MORE forsome players, and Ghost is in that group. But alot of teams have gotten away from the "catered" to players like Barrie, Faulk, Shattenkirk, Gardiner and soon to be Gustaffson, who need to be put in certain situations to succeed

Krug is a prime example of a player who has to be put out with certain players, and that's fine. He's a hell of a player. But Bos didn't get out of a 2nd round until they bolstered their 3rd line, and looky looky, they went to a final

Vegas went to a final without a stacked dcore but more depth

Again, IMO, if the Flyers are to make that push contend this year...which I've maintained many times has been their goal this year...that 3C position is far more important to do that

Trading Ghost for a rental...dumb
Trading Ghost for a legit C w similar cap....not a bad idea as some make it seem. I'm pretty sure life without Ghost will be just fine for the team and Sanheim will soon fill out that void anyway

I love Ghost and would love to keep him. I believe I saw that we could actually acquire a player like Pageau without losing anything significant. That would be ideal. But if Ghost was to be moved at the TDL, I certainly wouldn't be smashing mom's china cabinet like some
 
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They beat the top 4 teams in the standings without Ghost.
 
BiggE said:
There you have it. In the modern era the Cup is usually won by a very deep team, with good talent throughout the lineup, and, most importantly, the one who gets fantastic goaltending. It's not rocket science. Hopefully over the next couple of years Hart will mature into that kind of goalie and the Flyers will have the depth to make a Cup run.
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Which is why I don't obsess on the Flyers lacking a Crosby or Ovechkin.

If they can field three solid scoring lines, they're ahead of most SC teams, especially if they have 3-4 defensemen who can score 20+ ES points.
Next year, with Farabee and Frost a year older, G, Couts, TK, Hayes, JVR, Voracek, that's 8 forwards, so you just need one to step up, Laughton, Kase, Rubtsov, etc. to fill out the top nine - Patrick and/or Lindblom would be a huge bonus.

The reason I tend to down play PP scoring is special teams as a whole is what matters, not just PP goals, but PP goals allowed, SH goals allowed and scored. If you have a great PP but give up 10 SH goals, that negates some of that scoring - and the PK is just as important as the PP. PP scoring is a team matter, that is, scoring a lot on PP1 (a few players with big numbers) but nothing out of PP2 and leaking SH goals doesn't make you better than a team with balanced PP scoring (no one with huge numbers) and more responsible (fewer SH goals allowed).

Flyers this year are a +3 (35/32) on special teams, for all the gnashing of teeth over the PP.
 
bobbythebrain said:
I believe I saw that we could actually acquire a player like Pageau without losing anything significant. That would be ideal.
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Before the shooting heater this year, I would have agreed with this if they were ready to contend.

I easily could have missed something, but the last ask I saw was a 1 and a B prospect, which is patently absurd for an average Middle 6 type pending UFA with inflated value both from first line usage and shooting luck variance.

He's shooting 15.69% at 5v5 this year, which is essentially double every other year of his career. And of course no one who trades for him is going to use him as a 1C as he is now. You would need every interested team to realize this and think it was important before bidding might get reasonable.
 
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tucson83 said:
i took notice even in preseason this team was playing amazing without ghost.
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They don’t need him. I was a big Ghost fan, so this isn’t coming from a grudge. I just don’t think he’s anything close to what many posters seem to think he is right now. He’s not a nuanced player. He’s not a great skater. He’s kind of a one-trick pony & teams have stopped his trick. I mean, he’s not even on PP1. If you can get something for him, do it.
 
Ghosts Beer said:
They don’t need him. I was a big Ghost fan, so this isn’t coming from a grudge. I just don’t think he’s anything close to what many posters seem to think he is right now. He’s not a nuanced player. He’s not a great skater. He’s kind of a one-trick pony & teams have stopped his trick. I mean, he’s not even on PP1. If you can get something for him, do it.
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would duclair or pageau be good fits for ghost?
 
deadhead said:
Which is why I don't obsess on the Flyers lacking a Crosby or Ovechkin.

If they can field three solid scoring lines, they're ahead of most SC teams, especially if they have 3-4 defensemen who can score 20+ ES points.
Next year, with Farabee and Frost a year older, G, Couts, TK, Hayes, JVR, Voracek, that's 8 forwards, so you just need one to step up, Laughton, Kase, Rubtsov, etc. to fill out the top nine - Patrick and/or Lindblom would be a huge bonus.

The reason I tend to down play PP scoring is special teams as a whole is what matters, not just PP goals, but PP goals allowed, SH goals allowed and scored. If you have a great PP but give up 10 SH goals, that negates some of that scoring - and the PK is just as important as the PP. PP scoring is a team matter, that is, scoring a lot on PP1 (a few players with big numbers) but nothing out of PP2 and leaking SH goals doesn't make you better than a team with balanced PP scoring (no one with huge numbers) and more responsible (fewer SH goals allowed).

Flyers this year are a +3 (35/32) on special teams, for all the gnashing of teeth over the PP.
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+3 on special teams is fine but just think about how much better that number would be if our players were better used and positioned on the pp.

At a minimum, our pp has cost us 3-5 points this season, probably more and that could be the difference between finishing 3rd in the Metro or missing the playoffs.
 
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