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2019/20 Roster Thread XXIX

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People need to educated again.

2015-2016: 59 point pace
2016-2017: 42 point pace (while recovering from the same injury Giroux had)
2017-2018: 67 point pace
2018-2019: 39 point pace (sabotaged by coaching: poor usage, poor teammates, sabotaged PP)
2019-2020: 27 point pace (sabotaged by coaching harder than ever before: even worse usage, even worse teammates, even more sabotaged PP and on 2nd unit)

So his two non-sabotaged, non-injured seasons were pretty similar. It's not as if that 2017-2018 year dropped out of thin air and he never showed that type of skill in any other year. People acting like it was a mere fluke are being dishonest or ignorant.

Usage and teammates matter. Couturier is another perfect example, just like Sanheim and TK. This can't be ignored and brushed aside. Ghost hasn't changed in the last year and a bit. The usage has.
 
Ghost's rookie season was a player we haven't seen since, that player wasn't routinely beaten in foot races by forwards with good but not great speed, which has been the case the last few years.

To attribute his falloff the last two years to "sabotage" is an example of wishful thinking - if only multiple HCs didn't sabotage him he would produce the same as he did in 2017-18, because there is no other explanation for his falloff. Other teams never make adjustments, and a series of injuries over six years (ACL, hip, knee, MCL) has had no impact - in fact, that's just bad luck, he couldn't be injury prone.
 
Rebels57 said:
You'll probably hijack any other conversation anyway so its not worth it :thumbu:
Click to expand...
None of these other threads are discussing Ghost. It's literally only this one.

You'll be safe there and can let everyone know what they're allowed to talk about. :thumbu:

Prospect Info: - Phantoms (AHL), Reading Royals (ECHL), NCAA, Jrs., Int'l, etc.
Flyers' History: - Top 10s in Flyers history (or associated talks about the past)
Miscellaneous NHL Talk XL -- It's "humongous"
OT: - 74th Obsequious Banter Thread: Remember That Mike Vecchione Guy?
Fantasy Sports: - Flyers Board Mock Draft 2019
The Menu Part 13 The Reese's Edition and Defect Impeachment Trial
Gritty Being Investigated For Punching Boy In Back By Philly Police... Seriously (Gritty Part II)
OT: - Philadelphia Phillies: Pitchers And Catchers Soon
NCAA thread v6.0 - Bowl Season
Sci-Fi and Fantasy Thread - SPOILERS
Kevin Hayes - curse or blessing
OT: - Teh Philadelphia Severty Sixers: Or Maybe This Team Will Make Us Tap Instead?
Prospect Info: - 2020 NHL Draft Thread Vol. 1
 
Tripod said:
Ghost couldn't juke anymore either.....until he did multiple times this season.
Click to expand...

He also gets stripped of the puck a lot more when he tries to go end to end these days, opposing players don't respect his moves.

It's not like he's fallen off a cliff, it's just that Ghost isn't special anymore, he's a decent mobile offensive defenseman 5x5, but his best value is on the PP. Provorov is actually a better skater in open ice carrying the puck than Ghost these days, and of course, so is Sanheim. Ghost has better ice vision and playmaking skills, but his shot has deteriorated, Provorov is clearly a better shooter.

Mark Streit II, but he won't age nearly as well.
 
Striiker said:
People need to educated again.

2015-2016: 59 point pace
2016-2017: 42 point pace (while recovering from the same injury Giroux had)
2017-2018: 67 point pace
2018-2019: 39 point pace (sabotaged by coaching: poor usage, poor teammates, sabotaged PP)
2019-2020: 27 point pace (sabotaged by coaching harder than ever before: even worse usage, even worse teammates, even more sabotaged PP and on 2nd unit)

So his two non-sabotaged, non-injured seasons were pretty similar. It's not as if that 2017-2018 year dropped out of thin air and he never showed that type of skill in any other year. People acting like it was a mere fluke are being dishonest or ignorant.

Usage and teammates matter. Couturier is another perfect example, just like Sanheim and TK. This can't be ignored and brushed aside. Ghost hasn't changed in the last year and a bit. The usage has.
Click to expand...

we need to be educated? :huh:
 
deadhead said:
How many cheap defensemen are better than Hagg, Jojo?
Cheap defensemen under team control cost real assets to obtain, cheap defensemen who are free agents are usually pretty bad (because even mediocre veterans cost an arm and leg for the most part).
We added defensemen with NHL experience in Bigras, Witherspoon and Welinski. They are typical of what is out there at low cost.

You need to grow your own depth for the most part, you can add strategically, a veteran who can lift the game of linemates or defensive partners, but you can't pay $2-3M a year to all your bottom six forwards or third pair defensemen and certainly not your 13th/14th forwards and 7th/8th defensemen.
Click to expand...

Setting aside Friedman because you know that's been my answer for multiple years now, you can usually find a Defenseman who's got enough left to be your 7D on a vet min contract. I took a quick look at cheap UFAs and 3 names jumped out at me as clearly better -- MDZ, Pouliot, and Marincin. Deady, I'm not sure Hagg is clearly better than Korbinian Holzer. I'm not sure he isn't either, but it's a discussion I think you could have.

You'd even get something for Hagg in trade on top of it. For all of the complaints I have about Fletcher, he's shown a willingness to move on when he feels it's warranted. It jumps out at me as the type of series move he could make well.
 
Striiker said:
Are you one of the people who think Ghost had a fluke good year and has regressed since, unrelated to coaching misuse?

If yes, then yes.
If no, then no.
Click to expand...
15-16 was defo fluke imo. Everything Ghost touched turned into a gold, but I feel like this organization spent zero amount of time trying to take ghosts gamebreaking offensive talent to next level instead they probably worked on limiting that impact.

Good job they tried their best.:sarcasm:
 
MacDonald4MVP said:
15-16 was defo fluke imo. Everything Ghost touched turned into a gold, but I feel like this organization spent zero amount of time trying to take ghosts gamebreaking offensive talent to next level instead they probably worked on limiting that impact.

Good job they tried their best.:sarcasm:
Click to expand...
As far as goal scoring goes in 2015-2016, yeah, but not when it comes to overall offensive ability.

He's been fighting an uphill battle every single year, except for half of 2017-2018. Either screwed by teammates, coaches, or both. It would've been nice to see what our homegrown defensemen, capable of elite level produciton, could have done if actually supported by the team and given a legit chance. Instead, he got screwed and held back, while other golden boys got the best of everything.
 
JojoTheWhale said:
Setting aside Friedman because you know that's been my answer for multiple years now, you can usually find a Defenseman who's got enough left to be your 7D on a vet min contract. I took a quick look at cheap UFAs and 3 names jumped out at me as clearly better -- MDZ, Pouliot, and Marincin. Deady, I'm not sure Hagg is clearly better than Korbinian Holzer. I'm not sure he isn't either, but it's a discussion I think you could have.

You'd even get something for Hagg in trade on top of it. For all of the complaints I have about Fletcher, he's shown a willingness to move on when he feels it's warranted. It jumps out at me as the type of series move he could make well.
Click to expand...

Pouliot has dressed for 2 games for St Louis, playing 8:20.
Defensemen dressed ahead of him (after their top 5), Gunnerson, Bortuzzo.
Bortuzzo has been decent for a #6, but
Gunnerson CF 45.08%, xGF 40.66%, HDCF 37.21%, I think Hagg beats that performance!
So obviously they don't think much of Pouliot.

Marincin played 25, 2 and 24 games for the Leafs from age 24-26, this year he's played 17 games.
He has good metrics this year, but it reminds me of Folin, who had good metrics until you saw him in action.
Marincin played 15:13 last year, 14:33 this season on a really thin defense. They don't really trust him.

MDZ is putting up better numbers than Hagg, but by a thin margin: CF 45.72%, xGF 45.35%, HDCF 45.88%
Holzer CF 43.39%, xGF 42.22%, HDCF 43.17%
Hagg CF 44.84%, xGF 43.66%, HDCF 45.14%
Tweedle de and Tweedle dum.

Of course, whether we could sign them is unknown, we don't know what their options were (i.e. if all offers are 7th D-men situations, they might go for location or the better team).
 
The question is not will we ever see 65 point Ghost again? It was a career year and hats off to him. The question is will be see 40 point Ghost. 40 point Ghost should not be an outrageous ask. If Toronto were to offer a legit forward of equal salary (Kerfoot, Kapanen) I trade Ghost. If its some garbage 4th line center 4th round pick offer then I'll stick with Ghost thank you very much.
 
Striiker said:
As far as goal scoring goes in 2015-2016, yeah, but not when it comes to overall offensive ability.

He's been fighting an uphill battle every single year, except for half of 2017-2018. Either screwed by teammates, coaches, or both. It would've been nice to see what our homegrown defensemen, capable of elite level produciton, could have done if actually supported by the team and given a legit chance. Instead, he got screwed and held back, while other golden boys got the best of everything.
Click to expand...
Gordon Murphy and Mike Yeo aren't exactly champions of his kind either.
 
Starat327 said:
Also, the idea that stacking forwards is more important than D is just absolitely silly. Columbus, with their stacked D toppled the surging forwards in Tampa. Likewise the Canes against the Capitals. Toronto has one of the most stacked forward groups in the league, but cant get past the first round. Meanwhile, Nashville has probably had the best top 6D in the league for a while, and they consistently make and generally do well in the playoffs, with their only forward of note being Forsberg and whatevers left of Ryan Johansen.

You need balance, but just looking back over the past few years, teams who arent chock full of Generational forwards who rely on said stacked forward groups tend to not do so well.
Click to expand...


Clb has a better "stacked" blueline than TB? Can you fax that memo cuz I seem to have misplaced it?
Apparently Ryan Murray is a super stud now?

The Canes won by 1 goal in dbl OT. Then went on 2 rounds later to get destroyed by BOS.

As for TO, they have Reilly....stop! Gardiner didn't even get the contract he seeked, and got what he did after an extended wait. He now plays a 3rd line role cuz most GM's weren't willing to pay him for the narrow skillset he provides. The TO wasn't just weak..it was pathetic

The Flyers boast a decent top 4 atm when healthy. I'll give you they don't have that elite #1, but currently Ghost on the bottom pair isn't offsetting that by any margin
 
Beef Invictus said:
Your list is short. There are NOT that many dmen, and those that exist aren't generally available. There's a super good reason for that. All those contracts are great values, because once players like that begin hitting UFA they make 9% of the cap. So when you have one of those players for cheap, you keep them. The benefits for the team are substantial enough that getting proper value in a trade is very, very difficult.

You are approaching this from the perspective of "I want Ghost gone" rather than "what is best for the team?"
Click to expand...

Yet again another strawman. I have not one stated that I want Ghost gone from this team. I have stated multiple times that I am a huge fan of him.

His contract isn't a steal, he isn't being "sabotaged" by coaching, he really has lost a step of pace, and his shot, which was his most powerful asset appears to have deteriorated. I litterally picked 4 or 5 defenseman straight off the top of my head. There are probably plenty more that offer more than Ghost does in the same price bracket.

He's changed his game and is playing an ok level of defense. But his offensive game has fallen off a cliff. At 4.5 mil a year that isn't a steal, if we are going to start claiming he's a defensive stalwart now then he can start on the PK. Making all the excuses in the world isn't going to change things. It's just embarrassing to see his downturn in production is someone elses fault.
 
bobbythebrain said:
Clb has a better "stacked" blueline than TB? Can you fax that memo cuz I seem to have misplaced it?
Apparently Ryan Murray is a super stud now?

The Canes won by 1 goal in dbl OT. Then went on 2 rounds later to get destroyed by BOS.

As for TO, they have Reilly....stop! Gardiner didn't even get the contract he seeked, and got what he did after an extended wait. He now plays a 3rd line role cuz most GM's weren't willing to pay him for the narrow skillset he provides. The TO wasn't just weak..it was pathetic

The Flyers boast a decent top 4 atm when healthy. I'll give you they don't have that elite #1, but currently Ghost on the bottom pair isn't offsetting that by any margin
Click to expand...

So what you're saying is:

Tampa's stacked forwards and stacked D couldn't beat a team that had neither.

That Capitals stacked forwards couldn't beat a team that was built around its defense, and had Petr Mrazek and McBackup as their goalies (since we now want to nuance this debate and add stipulations for context)

And that Toronto, a team that went with the stack forward group has failed miserably.

Theres also no mention of Nashville in your post - care to comment?


Just want to make sure were on the same page that in recent history, stacked forward groups/offensive firepower teams tend to not fair so well.
 
Dog-Hides-From-Her-Humans-Behind-Flowerpot.gif
 
deadhead said:
Pouliot has dressed for 2 games for St Louis, playing 8:20.
Defensemen dressed ahead of him (after their top 5), Gunnerson, Bortuzzo.
Bortuzzo has been decent for a #6, but
Gunnerson CF 45.08%, xGF 40.66%, HDCF 37.21%, I think Hagg beats that performance!
So obviously they don't think much of Pouliot.

Marincin played 25, 2 and 24 games for the Leafs from age 24-26, this year he's played 17 games.
He has good metrics this year, but it reminds me of Folin, who had good metrics until you saw him in action.
Marincin played 15:13 last year, 14:33 this season on a really thin defense. They don't really trust him.

MDZ is putting up better numbers than Hagg, but by a thin margin: CF 45.72%, xGF 45.35%, HDCF 45.88%
Holzer CF 43.39%, xGF 42.22%, HDCF 43.17%
Hagg CF 44.84%, xGF 43.66%, HDCF 45.14%
Tweedle de and Tweedle dum.

Of course, whether we could sign them is unknown, we don't know what their options were (i.e. if all offers are 7th D-men situations, they might go for location or the better team).
Click to expand...

Completely agreed on the last paragraph. It could be that none of those three were willing to sign here for whatever reasons and we have no way to extract the truth. However, the flip side of that coin is that I only looked at NHL UFAs. There's also the trade market and the EU Free Agents, which means that the pool from which I'm drawing is assuredly significantly smaller than Fletcher's options last summer.

I didn't consider what those guys were doing this year because that's backseat driving to me, but I'm willing to play along. Any seasons like Hagg's 16-17 where he played one Game would not be fair points of comparison, so I will leave them out. The following chart is for 5v5 only. If anyone isn't familiar with the metrics used, positive is good in all but the last column (HockeyViz Defensive Isolate).

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table, border-width: 2px"][THEAD][TR="bgcolor: #8DAAE0"][TD][/TD]
[TD]CF% Rel[/TD][TD]xGF% Rel[/TD][TD]HV Off[/TD][TD] HV Def[/TD][/TR][/THEAD]
[TBODY][TR="bgcolor: #CAE6CD"][TD]Hagg [/TD][TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #CAE6CD"][TD]16-17[/TD][TD]N/A[/TD][TD]N/A[/TD][TD]N/A[/TD][TD] N/A[/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #CAE6CD"][TD]17-18[/TD][TD]-6.11[/TD][TD]-3.76[/TD][TD]-9.4[/TD][TD] +2.7[/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #CAE6CD"][TD]18-19[/TD][TD]-6.17[/TD][TD]-6.28[/TD][TD]-11.8[/TD][TD]+19.2 [/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #CAE6CD"][TD] 19-20[/TD][TD]-9.31 [/TD][TD]-10.98 [/TD][TD]-17.4 [/TD][TD] +15.2[/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F092AD"][TD] MDZ[/TD][TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F092AD"][TD]16-17[/TD][TD]+1.42[/TD][TD]+2.32[/TD][TD]-5.1[/TD][TD] +9.6[/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F092AD"][TD]17-18[/TD][TD]-2.59[/TD][TD]-3.02[/TD][TD]-5.0[/TD][TD] +16.5[/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F092AD"][TD]18-19[/TD][TD]+1.90[/TD][TD]+1.81[/TD][TD]-0.6[/TD][TD]+14.7 [/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F092AD"][TD]19-20 [/TD][TD]-3.67 [/TD][TD] -3.74[/TD][TD] -4.9[/TD][TD]+12.7 [/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #B4B85A"][TD] Pouliot[/TD][TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #B4B85A"][TD]16-17[/TD][TD]-0.76[/TD][TD]-9.31[/TD][TD]-17.4[/TD][TD] +17.6[/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #B4B85A"][TD]17-18[/TD][TD]+3.41[/TD][TD]+3.45[/TD][TD]-7.7[/TD][TD] +6.3[/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #B4B85A"][TD]18-19[/TD][TD]+3.48[/TD][TD]+3.07[/TD][TD]-5.0[/TD][TD] +15.7[/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #B4B85A"][TD] 19-20[/TD][TD]N/A [/TD][TD]N/A [/TD][TD] N/A[/TD][TD] N/A[/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #8AA2AB"][TD]Marincin [/TD][TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #8AA2AB"][TD]16-17[/TD][TD]+2.71[/TD][TD]+3.29[/TD][TD]+10.3[/TD][TD]+7.6 [/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #8AA2AB"][TD]17-18[/TD][TD]N/A[/TD][TD]N/A[/TD][TD]N/A[/TD][TD]N/A [/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #8AA2AB"][TD]18-19[/TD][TD]+1.72[/TD][TD]+6.14[/TD][TD]-1.7[/TD][TD]+5.7 [/TD][/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #8AA2AB"][TD] 19-20[/TD][TD] +2.39[/TD][TD]+0.44 [/TD][TD] -0.7[/TD][TD] +6.7[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]
Again, none of them are actively good at this point. However, all were bargain basement UFAs. All were measurably and significantly less terrible than the avenue Fletcher chose.
 
From Meltzer...

Perhaps the most disappointing part of the now-completed road swing was the fact that young players who seemed to be turning the corner during the undefeated homestand -- including first-round picks Morgan Frost and German Rubtsov as well as second-rounder Isaac Ratcliffe -- regressed during the road trip. Kase's play in response to being a healthy scratch for one game was the main highlight among the younger players on the Phantoms.
 
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