Prospect Info: 2018 NHL Draft / Pick #9 - Vitali Kravtsov (RW) - Part VI

[nyr2k2]

He can come back to NA at the end of February. You guys are really blowing this up.

Thanks for reminding us of what we all know. The discussion is about whether he made the right decision for this season, and the potential implications for next season and moving forward. If you don't think it's worthy of discussion then don't discuss it?

 

[Chytilmania]

Thanks for reminding us of what we all know. The discussion is about whether he made the right decision for this season, and the potential implications for next season and moving forward. If you don't think it's worthy of discussion then don't discuss it?

It is what it is, I'd only start to worry if he doesn't come over after the season.

 

[nyr2k2]

It is what it is, I'd only start to worry if he doesn't come over after the season.

He has a contract to play here after the season with no EAC or other out. He has to come. If he tries to get out of his contract, then yeah that would be a problem.

 

[Zine]

That's why I said MOST players need to spend a year in the AHL. Kravtsov would apparently be included in that group at this time, no different than a kid leaving junior hockey or something.

Not for players with Kravtsov’s background. The overwhelming majority of established Russian NHLers have NOT spent any considerable time in the AHL precisely because the KHL is a prosperous alternative.

If you more insightfully look at NHLers coming from the same upbringing, training style and environment as Kravtsov, you’ll quickly notice that a year in the AHL is a deviation from the normal successful NHL development path.

Could the AHL be beneficial for Kravtsov? Maybe, maybe not. But there’s no evidence whatsoever to suggest it’s a prerequisite for success.

 

[SA16]

Not for players with Kravtsov’s background. The overwhelming majority of established Russian NHLers have NOT spent any considerable time in the AHL precisely because the KHL is a prosperous alternative.

If you more insightfully look at NHLers coming from the same upbringing, training style and environment as Kravtsov, you’ll quickly notice that a year in the AHL is a deviation from the normal successful NHL development path.

Could the AHL be beneficial for Kravtsov? Maybe, maybe not. But there’s no evidence whatsoever to suggest it’s a prerequisite for success.

List of 1st/2nd rounders drafted out of Russia/KHL since 2013:

Nichushkin - made the NHL his draft year
Dano - basically an AHL vet now
Kamenev - two full AHL seasons
Gurianov - 3 full AHL seasons
Samsonov - 1 full AHL season
Rubtsov - played CHL and then in the AHL
Kayumov - no AHL
Korshkov - currently in his first AHL season
Volkov - two full AHL Seasons
Koston - 2 full AHL seasons.

This is not true. Playing in the AHL for Russian drafted players is common. The only pick out of Russia since 2013 to not play significant time in the AHL (that didn't make the NHL right away) is Artur Kayumov. Podkolzin hasn't either but that's just this year.

 

[kovazub94]

List of 1st/2nd rounders drafted out of Russia/KHL since 2013:

Nichushkin - made the NHL his draft year
Dano - basically an AHL vet now
Kamenev - two full AHL seasons
Gurianov - 3 full AHL seasons
Samsonov - 1 full AHL season
Rubtsov - played CHL and then in the AHL
Kayumov - no AHL
Korshkov - currently in his first AHL season
Volkov - two full AHL Seasons
Koston - 2 full AHL seasons.

This is not true. Playing in the AHL for Russian drafted players is common. The only pick out of Russia since 2013 to not play significant time in the AHL (that didn't make the NHL right away) is Artur Kayumov. Podkolzin hasn't either but that's just this year.

And which one of these names are highly regarded top-10 pick, which was @Zine 's point if I understood him correctly?

 

[Zine]

List of 1st/2nd rounders drafted out of Russia/KHL since 2013:

Nichushkin - made the NHL his draft year
Dano - basically an AHL vet now
Kamenev - two full AHL seasons
Gurianov - 3 full AHL seasons
Samsonov - 1 full AHL season
Rubtsov - played CHL and then in the AHL
Kayumov - no AHL
Korshkov - currently in his first AHL season
Volkov - two full AHL Seasons
Koston - 2 full AHL seasons.

This is not true. Playing in the AHL for Russian drafted players is common. The only pick out of Russia since 2013 to not play significant time in the AHL (that didn't make the NHL right away) is Artur Kayumov. Podkolzin hasn't either but that's just this year.

Read my post again. It was regarding established Russian NHLers, not middling prospects toiling in the AHL

Perhaps apart from goalies, a year in the AHL is a deviation from the development norm for our elite players (which Kravtsov is for his age), particularly for those with the ability to play significant minutes in the KHL.

Kravtsov realized what most every other quality Russian knows, the AHL is a dumpster-fire, a step backwards; hence why few Russians with talent put up with being there for any considerable amount of time.

You think, even as a goaltender, Shestyorkin will be content wasting his time in Hartford too much longer? Get real.

 

[nyr2k2]

Read my post again. It was regarding established Russian NHLers, not middling prospects toiling in the AHL

Perhaps apart from goalies, a year in the AHL is a deviation from the development norm for our elite players (which Kravtsov is for his age), particularly for those with the ability to play significant minutes in the KHL.

Kravtsov realized what most every other quality Russian knows, the AHL is a dumpster-fire, a step backwards; hence why few Russians with talent put up with being there for any considerable amount of time.

You think, even as a goaltender, Shestyorkin will be content wasting his time in Hartford too much longer? Get real.

A dumpster fire? The AHL is the top development league for NHL players in the world, regardless of nationality. It's a fantastic place to play to learn what it takes to be a successful NHL player, if you're not already so gifted that you can step right out there without prep (whether you're a Crosby or an Ovechkin).

And hey, at least the "dumpster fire" league doesn't have to worry about teams not being able to afford their bills and going under mid-season. There's something to be said for solvency!

 

[Zine]

A dumpster fire? The AHL is the top development league for NHL players in the world, regardless of nationality. It's a fantastic place to play to learn what it takes to be a successful NHL player, if you're not already so gifted that you can step right out there without prep (whether you're a Crosby or an Ovechkin).

And hey, at least the "dumpster fire" league doesn't have to worry about teams not being able to afford their bills and going under mid-season. There's something to be said for solvency!

If the AHL was the best pathway for Russians to the NHL, everybody and his mother would be lining up to play there. Players, as a collective, aren't stupid. However facts point in a different direction. Most Russians, especially high end talents, will not play in the AHL as it is deemed an inferior dumpsterfire compared to the alternative KHL. The vast majority of our elite guys developed elsewhere.

I’m sorry if this offends you, but, in a Kravtsov thread, we must look at facts as they pertain and relate to Kravtsov and players with similar backgrounds to him. This thread isn't about what the AHL can do for a Canadian or American or whoever.

Bottom line, again, there’s no evidence whatsoever suggesting the AHL is a prerequisite to success for a player like Kravtsov.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

A dumpster fire? The AHL is the top development league for NHL players in the world, regardless of nationality. It's a fantastic place to play to learn what it takes to be a successful NHL player, if you're not already so gifted that you can step right out there without prep (whether you're a Crosby or an Ovechkin).

And hey, at least the "dumpster fire" league doesn't have to worry about teams not being able to afford their bills and going under mid-season. There's something to be said for solvency!

I mean, I hear ya, regarding "dumpster fire", but he's not wrong about getting paid $70K, riding buses for hours upon hours every week, and playing in front of a few hundred fans in cities like Bridgeport.

I remain fully convinced, however, that this is more about a 19-year-old who just wasn't ready for such a big change.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

I feel like Kravtsov had one specific expectation for his experience of coming over now (being an instant star) and didn’t really think of what it would be like if that didn’t come true at the start of the season and inflated everything in his head according to that, and then there was a steep decline in his experience when he got sent down then left before he had gotten over the shock of it

 

[TheDirtyH]

If someone told me that I could make 70k a year starting at 19 I'd accept.

When they told me the bad news that I'd be playing my favorite sport for a living, living in a crappy city, and riding high-end coach buses to travel, I would tell them I'd do it for 45.

 

[Dr. Ogrodnick]

If someone told me that I could make 70k a year starting at 19 I'd accept.

When they told me the bad news that I'd be playing my favorite sport for a living, living in a crappy city, and riding high-end coach buses to travel, I would tell them I'd do it for 45.

Unless you were making 3-4 times that at 18....

 

[kovazub94]

If the AHL was the best pathway for Russians to the NHL, everybody and his mother would be lining up to play there. Players, as a collective, aren't stupid. However facts point in a different direction. Most Russians, especially high end talents, will not play in the AHL as it is deemed an inferior dumpsterfire compared to the alternative KHL. The vast majority of our elite guys developed elsewhere.

I’m sorry if this offends you, but, in a Kravtsov thread, we must look at facts as they pertain and relate to Kravtsov and players with similar backgrounds to him. This thread isn't about what the AHL can do for a Canadian or American or whoever.

Bottom line, again, there’s no evidence whatsoever suggesting the AHL is a prerequisite to success for a player like Kravtsov.

If you don't want KHL teams and the league as whole to be referred to as "dumpster fire" then please give the same courtesy to the league where plenty of past and current NHL stars developed (as well as those who couldn't make it in the NHL but somehow are one of the premier players in the KHL).

 

[nyr2k2]

If the AHL was the best pathway for Russians to the NHL, everybody and his mother would be lining up to play there. Players, as a collective, aren't stupid. However facts point in a different direction. Most Russians, especially high end talents, will not play in the AHL as it is deemed an inferior dumpsterfire compared to the alternative KHL. The vast majority of our elite guys developed elsewhere.

I’m sorry if this offends you, but, in a Kravtsov thread, we must look at facts as they pertain and relate to Kravtsov and players with similar backgrounds to him. This thread isn't about what the AHL can do for a Canadian or American or whoever.

Bottom line, again, there’s no evidence whatsoever suggesting the AHL is a prerequisite to success for a player like Kravtsov.

I specifically said that for the Ovechkins and Crosbys of the world, there's no need for the AHL. "Your" elite talent can develop in the KHL, and that's fine.

I had nothing to contribute here until I saw your laughable mischaracterization of the AHL as a "dumpster fire", which is just about the most inane description I've ever read of the league. It doesn't offend me, it just offends logic.

 

[nyr2k2]

I mean, I hear ya, regarding "dumpster fire", but he's not wrong about getting paid $70K, riding buses for hours upon hours every week, and playing in front of a few hundred fans in cities like Bridgeport.

I remain fully convinced, however, that this is more about a 19-year-old who just wasn't ready for such a big change.

I have no dog in this fight, beyond defending the characterization of the AHL as a dumpster fire. That's it.

 

[Ghost of jas]

If someone told me that I could make 70k a year starting at 19 I'd accept.

When they told me the bad news that I'd be playing my favorite sport for a living, living in a crappy city, and riding high-end coach buses to travel, I would tell them I'd do it for 45.

Would you do it in foreign country when you can make much more money doing the same thing at home?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

A dumpster fire? The AHL is the top development league for NHL players in the world, regardless of nationality. It's a fantastic place to play to learn what it takes to be a successful NHL player, if you're not already so gifted that you can step right out there without prep (whether you're a Crosby or an Ovechkin).

And hey, at least the "dumpster fire" league doesn't have to worry about teams not being able to afford their bills and going under mid-season. There's something to be said for solvency!

If the AHL was the best pathway for Russians to the NHL, everybody and his mother would be lining up to play there. Players, as a collective, aren't stupid. However facts point in a different direction. Most Russians, especially high end talents, will not play in the AHL as it is deemed an inferior dumpsterfire compared to the alternative KHL. The vast majority of our elite guys developed elsewhere.

I’m sorry if this offends you, but, in a Kravtsov thread, we must look at facts as they pertain and relate to Kravtsov and players with similar backgrounds to him. This thread isn't about what the AHL can do for a Canadian or American or whoever.

Bottom line, again, there’s no evidence whatsoever suggesting the AHL is a prerequisite to success for a player like Kravtsov.

The truth is that it's a bit of both.

The AHL is the best way to develop for Canadians, Czechs, Germans, Austrians, Slovaks, Americans, Norwegians and Danes because the AHL is a better league than where these players (usually) come from. It's a step up to move to the AHL. Look at Chytil who goes from Zlin in the Extraliga to Hartford in the AHL and it's a great step for his development.

On the other hand you have Liiga, SHL and KHL which are at the very least in proximity with the AHL when it comes to quality. For those players, the better path is in a lot of cases to stay home and come over at a later age. They develop in their own environment, speaking their own language, with the organization they have known for years, without sacrificing the quality of hockey by not making the move.

Of course there are always exceptions to this, but I feel that in general, this is what it comes down to. I think the "adjusting to NA style of hockey by playing in the AHL" is a bit overrated, especially for high end prospects. There's some truth to it, but it's not that it's a matter of 1 tried and tested way that can be applied to everyone

 

[UnSandvich]

If someone told me that I could make 70k a year starting at 19 I'd accept.

When they told me the bad news that I'd be playing my favorite sport for a living, living in a crappy city, and riding high-end coach buses to travel, I would tell them I'd do it for 45.

Problem here (as I've brought up before) is that he's not going to be making 70k a year. With taxes, it's probably closer to half of that

EDIT: As compared to however much in Russia

 

[TheDirtyH]

Lol chill.

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

It is important, though. This is still a year where he can develop. If he takes to heart the critiques of his game provided by NYR and works on it, then that's great. If he works on preparing himself for life on North America and tries to develop some sort of support system here, that's great. It doesn't have to be a wash.

Conversely, if he decides he just needs to learn to dangle better to be successful, and doesn't put much thought into acclimating next year and what that will take, then it's a problem.

It's true that what he does next year is what ultimately matters, but there's a lot that can be done this season to impact next year, either positively or negatively.

I generally agree, however, he gave up the ability for the organization to guide his development in a meaningful way by exercising his escape clause.

I hope Kravtsov is aware that it's on him to learn from his experience in the United States and come back ready to put it all together next September. The organization will certainly check in on him and no doubt continue to make suggestions on what he should be doing to improve the areas that caused him to be demoted in the first place. But, that's all they are, suggestions. They don't have any real control over what happens. I think that's a heavy burden on a 19 year old who was considered by many in hockey to be ready for the NHL in September.

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

He can come back to NA at the end of February. You guys are really blowing this up.

There's no guarantee that his employer will choose to recall him. What if they don't see any meaningful progression in his development? What if they're concerned about placing him in Hartford? Or maybe they don't recall him because they figure it will be better to get a clean start over the summer. February and March are not the nicest months ride the bus through New England and upstate NY with players you barely know.

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

Not for players with Kravtsov’s background. The overwhelming majority of established Russian NHLers have NOT spent any considerable time in the AHL precisely because the KHL is a prosperous alternative.

If you more insightfully look at NHLers coming from the same upbringing, training style and environment as Kravtsov, you’ll quickly notice that a year in the AHL is a deviation from the normal successful NHL development path.

Could the AHL be beneficial for Kravtsov? Maybe, maybe not. But there’s no evidence whatsoever to suggest it’s a prerequisite for success.

How many of these Russian stars started playing in the NHL at 19?

And let's also remember that Kravtsov did not look ready to play in the NHL either.

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

Would you do it in foreign country when you can make much more money doing the same thing at home?

Short term pain for long term gain.

 

[Ghost of jas]

Short term pain for long term gain.

Not every 19-year-old has that kind of foresight.