Prospect Info: 2018 NHL Draft / Pick #9 - Vitali Kravtsov (RW) - Part VI

[nyr2k2]

This x1000

The thing that annoys me the most is when people try to blame just 1 party in these type of situations. Kravtsov could have put more effort in to try and stick. Work through the rough patch, so to speak. But at the same time it's foolish to ignore the decisions of the organization that led to this situation

You're going to question the organization? Before the year, you predicted Kravtsov would put up 30 points. I remember you put together your PP units and Kravtsov was on the second unit. You said he may have to start the year in Hartford. Where did you express concerns about his ability and willingness to stick? You were just as gung-ho about his chances as anyone. We had people calling him the best prospect in hockey. It's complete revisionist history to go back and make it seem like the team made a poor decision to offer him a contract and bring him over. Everyone thought he was ready, yourself included.

 

[Thirty One]

Others may still disagree, but I think it would be reasonable to call this a wasted opportunity. He had an opportunity to come here and acclimate to North American and the North American game, work with our coaching staff, focus on whatever he needed to do to be effective in the pro game here, and instead, he went back to Traktor. For me, that's a wasted opportunity. He could end up having a great year and taking strides, sure. So he does have a chance to make it a worthwhile season. But even then, I would still see a wasted opportunity.

Yeah, I don't disagree. I see wasted season and wasted opportunity as two very different things.

 

[nyr2k2]

It's not like Russia is a bad place for players to develop. Of the top-10 Russian scorers last year, Kuznetsov, Panarin, Dadonov, Tarasenko, and Buchnevich all spent their D+2 in Russia (obviously Panarin wasn't drafted, but he was still over there at the same age Kravtsov is right now). Of the other 5, 3 were top-2 picks that were in the NHL in their D+1, or in Ovie's case he would've been if not for the 04-05 lockout. Not a single one of them was in the AHL in D+2 (Kucherov and Radulov were playing in Canadian Jrs FFS).

I think there are benefits to him being in the AHL vs the KHL this season, but they seem to be vastly overstated in this thread. Being in the KHL in D+2 is not going to stunt Kravtsov's development. While there are things he might lose out on by not playing in the North American game, there are other things he can gain other things playing in the Russian game. It's not like he dominated there last year and has nothing left to learn.

While my problems with Kravtsov and how he responded to everything wouldn't change, but my feelings on his KHL stint would change if he weren't playing for a toxic waste dump in Traktor. I mean shit, they have 8 wins and 53 goals in 31 games. Their top scorers all have 11 points in 25-30 games. It's a horrible situation there. If he played for a respectable team, I'd be more optimistic about him taking positive strides for the season.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

You're going to question the organization? Before the year, you predicted Kravtsov would put up 30 points. I remember you put together you PP units an Kravtsov was on the second unit. You said he may have to start the year in Hartford. Where did you express concerns about his ability and willingness to stick? You were just as gung-ho about his chances as anyone. We had people calling him the best prospect in hockey. It's complete revisionist history to go back and make it seem like the team made a poor decision to offer him a contract and bring him over. Everyone thought he was ready, yourself included.

That was after he signed. I have said many times I felt he wasn't NHL ready

 

[Harbour Dog]

It takes two to tango. Other players have said no to the Rangers before. He wasn't forced to sign here. Only in retrospect does it seem that we "rushed" him. When he signed his ELC and said he was coming over, no one said he was being rushed.

FWIW, I think there was a large minority of us who never expected him to be in the NHL this year. Personally, he seemed so excited to get over here that I thought he would happily try to dominate at the AHL level.

 

[nyr2k2]

That was after he signed. I have said many times I felt he wasn't NHL ready

Oh come on. He's not NHL ready but at 19 he's going to be on the PP2 and score 30 points? That doesn't add up, at all. I looked, even back when you were saying he should probably play another year in Russia, you added that he could be a middle-six player and probably score 30-40 points as a rookie. I didn't see a single post where you said he wasn't NHL ready; and even if you did say that, you contradict yourself by stating he could score 20, 30, 40 points.

If you can score 30 points, you're NHL ready.

 

[nyr2k2]

FWIW, I think there was a large minority of us who never expected him to be in the NHL this year. Personally, he seemed so excited to get over here that I thought he would happily try to dominate at the AHL level.

Crazy, isn't it? And that's why I get annoyed when people claim we "rushed" him. Besides that being hindsight, we have Steven relaying anecdotes from the kid's dad, saying he was dying to come over here ASAP, and stories from published sources about how Kravtsov really wanted to be here. So we have a kid coming off a very good year in the KHL, who really, really wants to come play here, and we're going to argue we rushed him? That's bullshit. The kid did a total 180 on his desire to be here once he faced some adversity in Hartford.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I don’t buy that the org rushed him (I mean signing him especially is a no brainer, if you can lock up your KHL top prospect before he gets a new deal you have to) but I absolutely think they could have done more to ease the transition to the AHL and support with that aspect.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Crazy, isn't it? And that's why I get annoyed when people claim we "rushed" him. Besides that being hindsight, we have Steven relaying anecdotes from the kid's dad, saying he was dying to come over here ASAP, and stories from published sources about how Kravtsov really wanted to be here. So we have a kid coming off a very good year in the KHL, who really, really wants to come play here, and we're going to argue we rushed him? That's bull****. The kid did a total 180 on his desire to be here once he faced some adversity in Hartford.

Yeah, we have been guilty many times before of "rushing" kids, but I can't get behind Kravtsov as an example of that.

It never mattered that he was probably not NHL-ready. Everything we heard was that he was itching to start his North American career. He was watching videos of Gretzky, and Lemieux, and Jagr; and dreaming about what it would take to become that type of player. Well he failed the first test.

And I haven't got much interest in his season this year. Hopefully he just puts on some more muscle and matures emotionally, so that he responds to being benched as a challenge instead of as a piece of adversity to rum from.

 

[Harbour Dog]

I don’t buy that the org rushed him (I mean signing him especially is a no brainer, if you can lock up your KHL top prospect before he gets a new deal you have to) but I absolutely think they could have done more to ease the transition to the AHL and support with that aspect.

Yeah, this is fair. Doesn't excuse Kravtsov entirely, but it's certainly something that could have been approached differently by management.

I can't help but wonder if bringing Ruutu over for Kakko was somehow connected to Kravtsov leaving.

 

[nyr2k2]

I don’t buy that the org rushed him (I mean signing him especially is a no brainer, if you can lock up your KHL top prospect before he gets a new deal you have to) but I absolutely think they could have done more to ease the transition to the AHL and support with that aspect.

It makes me wonder what we did, period. There were obviously some miscommunications, like the heart rate thing becoming something probably much more substantial than it really was. Some of the other stuff, like him freaking over not being able to communicate with a barber? IDK, that seems more like a lack of resourcefulness. I got a haircut in Romania, and I did it by taking a couple minutes to find a good picture of myself on my phone. Of course the guy understood what I was doing. It wasn't exactly what I wanted, but it was fine. Sometimes you just need to try, instead of running. Hopefully he grows up some.

The communication with the team, seems like someone should have been able to communicate in Russian. I mean I hear Kravtsov speaks English okay, so he shouldn't have been totally clueless. Maybe a translator on hand at practices could have helped? IDK. Shesterkin seemed to hit the ground running (I know he's older), so could it have been that bad?

I can't be too critical of the team's efforts to help him acclimate without knowing what they did or didn't do, particularly given that Kravtsov seems a little flighty.

 

[apoptygma]

I think people underestimate the off ice aspect of this. It is a huge difference to move to another country, and even more for a 19 year old. I remember how missfitted I felt when i joined navy bootcamp at 18 myself, and that was in my own country. A totaly new set of social rules and social structure. Give him time to process all the impressions and he will come back next year more prepared.

 

[McSauer]

He probably would've been called up by now if he had stayed a few more weeks. More and more disappointed with this decision on his part...

 

[9darter]

How closely can the Rangers monitor his progress in Russia?
Can they exercise any influence at all over his training, deployment, etc.?

Well, they tried that when he was here but he ran away like a ***** the first chance he got....

Thanks, but that's not a useful reply to my question.
Anyone with info on how the communication between NYR and Traktor works? Daily updates or a phonecall every three months?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

It would have really benefited him to suck it up and stay over here. I’m sure he would have hit his groove eventually and would have been on the fast track to NY.

Our Hartford staff knows what they’re doing. I don’t fault the kid if he got home sick, that happens and he was given a provision in his contract that allowed him to go home but all he really did was delay his NHL debut and potentially nuked a development year.

 

[Zats Muccarello]

6 games in KHL so far:

1 goal
1 assist
-1 +/-
9 sog
17:45 toi/g

Not so bueno but at least he is getting ice time

 

[pblawr]

For whatever reason (I'd guess weaker defenseman / less tight style of play), KHL to NHL transitions seems to be really difficult.

- Tolvanen, after a great post-draft season in the KHL, has only been mediocre in the AHL so far
- It took Kuznetsov a year and half of NHL play and until he was 23 to break out in the NHL
- It took Tarasenko a year and a half of NHL play and until he was 23 to break out in the NHL
- Buchnevich has struggled with his play off the puck in the NHL to this point, although at 24, with 3 NHL seasons under his belt, he seems to be having his best season yet
- I think the best NHL defenseman to come out of the KHL so far is Dmitri Orlov, which says a lot in itself, and he spent parts of 5 seasons in the AHL before adjusting in the NHL

Bu none of that changes the fact that Kravtsov is incredibly offensively talented, as he's displayed not only in the KHL, but also at the WJC, Traverse City, 4 Nations, etc, and no one had anything but positive things to say about his work ethic until, at age 19, he decided that he wasn't comfortable moving halfway around the world to a team that he struggled on where he barely knew anyone. It seems like the expectations for an immediate impact were premature, but I'm not sure there's anything here that should change the expectations for where he ultimately ends up.

 

[Calad]

Ok. Talk to me in a year when you're actually concerned as well. But let me know when you have a legitimate argument as to how Kravtsov going back to Russia benefits the Rangers organization in any way, shape, or form.

Let me give it a shot. Our top prospect was sent to the AHL, and rather than being forced to stay in the AHL, where he feels he isnt getting a fair shake, while career depth d-man is playing forward over him in the NHL. Instead of letting his contempt fester for the coaching staff, management and organization, eventually forcing Gorton to trade him due to the unhappy situation, he returns back to Russia with the support of our staff (regardless of whether or not they preferred he stayed, they are still supporting his decision).
I'd imagine they met with him before he returned to Europe and discussed what they wanted him to work on before coming back. If I were him I'd do my best to improve my game so I don't get stuck in Hartford again I would hope someone from the development staff will keep tabs on him throughout the KHL season, maybe even work with him at points to further develop his game.

And who knows, KHL season ends in February, which is more than enough time for Kravtsov to come back to Hartford at the end of the season and join the playoff push. Maybe some of the problems plaguing him (like too low of a heart rate in game LOL) are gone when he returns. All that remains is to wait and see. But all in all, pissing off a prospect is not a good way to keep him around long term.

 

[nyr2k2]

I think people underestimate the off ice aspect of this. It is a huge difference to move to another country, and even more for a 19 year old. I remember how missfitted I felt when i joined navy bootcamp at 18 myself, and that was in my own country. A totaly new set of social rules and social structure. Give him time to process all the impressions and he will come back next year more prepared.

Well, the point you're making is not without merit, but it's also one that about 50 other people have made. So, I don't think it's being overlooked--probably just discounted. My take on it is that I get it, but teenage hockey players leave their country and come to the US/Canada all the time. It's not as if it's a change that can't be overcome. And, surely, with a worldly father like he has, he would have been aware of the potential cultural difficulties. He apparently started learning English before he was even a teenager and stayed with a billet family over the summer, so it's hard for me to believe he was completely out of his element.

Anyway, I'm done with this VK stuff. I hope it works out for him.

 

[aufheben]

6GP / 1G / 1A / 9 SOG / -2

Meanwhile Traktor has lost 5/6 games since he returned. Lol. Should have stuck it out in Hartford.

 

[CaptTennille]

6GP / 1G / 1A / 9 SOG / -2

Meanwhile Traktor has lost 5/6 games since he returned. Lol. Should have stuck it out in Hartford.

I’d rather him lose on the ice than win on the bench.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Let me give it a shot. Our top prospect was sent to the AHL, and rather than being forced to stay in the AHL, where he feels he isnt getting a fair shake, while career depth d-man is playing forward over him in the NHL. Instead of letting his contempt fester for the coaching staff, management and organization, eventually forcing Gorton to trade him due to the unhappy situation, he returns back to Russia with the support of our staff (regardless of whether or not they preferred he stayed, they are still supporting his decision).
I'd imagine they met with him before he returned to Europe and discussed what they wanted him to work on before coming back. If I were him I'd do my best to improve my game so I don't get stuck in Hartford again I would hope someone from the development staff will keep tabs on him throughout the KHL season, maybe even work with him at points to further develop his game.

And who knows, KHL season ends in February, which is more than enough time for Kravtsov to come back to Hartford at the end of the season and join the playoff push. Maybe some of the problems plaguing him (like too low of a heart rate in game LOL) are gone when he returns. All that remains is to wait and see. But all in all, pissing off a prospect is not a good way to keep him around long term.

Probably the likely scenario. Also shows an absurd amount of entitlement and arrogance from a young player. And that's worrisome.

 

[aufheben]

I’d rather him lose on the ice than win on the bench.

I really doubt he would have been benched all season.

 

[I Eat Crow]

He came to training camp and was decent, not good or great. Didn't earn the spot, and frankly deserved to go to Hartford to work on his game. There, he could have been spoon fed top 6 minutes in all situations adjusting to life in the US and adjusting to a new system, teammates, et al.

He took the demotion as a slight against him and sulked instead of going down there like Chytil ready to prove the coaches wrong. Chytil is playing like he doesn't want to go back to Hartford. Good for him. Kravtsov went to Hartford and loafed around. He'll learn. I think the "it was hard to adjust" excuses are hogwosh. He didn't make the team and pouted and went off to Russia the first chance he got. It rubs me (and I'm sure the front office and coaching staff) the wrong way, and I think they're right to feel that way.

Fingers crossed he does some maturing and some serious soul searching. Playing on a crappy team is good for him if he's getting the minutes. He needs ice time. Strong arming a trade to SKA or CSKA where he'll play only 8 or 9 minutes a night won't help him either. He's just fine where he is.

Brendan Smith and Michael f***ing Haley are getting regular game time at forward this year. He needs to come into next training camp with more humility, receptive to coaching feedback, and ready to work his ass off. He'll be with the big club if he does that. To be honest if he pouts and loafs again next year and doesn't listen to the coaches I'd trade his ass.

 

[aufheben]

He came to training camp and was decent, not good or great. Didn't earn the spot, and frankly deserved to go to Hartford to work on his game. There, he could have been spoon fed top 6 minutes in all situations adjusting to life in the US and adjusting to a new system, teammates, et al.

He took the demotion as a slight against him and sulked instead of going down there like Chytil ready to prove the coaches wrong. Chytil is playing like he doesn't want to go back to Hartford. Good for him. Kravtsov went to Hartford and loafed around. He'll learn. I think the "it was hard to adjust" excuses are hogwosh. He didn't make the team and pouted and went off to Russia the first chance he got. It rubs me (and I'm sure the front office and coaching staff) the wrong way, and I think they're right to feel that way.

Fingers crossed he does some maturing and some serious soul searching. Playing on a crappy team is good for him if he's getting the minutes. He needs ice time. Strong arming a trade to SKA or CSKA where he'll play only 8 or 9 minutes a night won't help him either. He's just fine where he is.

Brendan Smith and Michael ****ing Haley are getting regular game time at forward this year. He needs to come into next training camp with more humility, receptive to coaching feedback, and ready to work his ass off. He'll be with the big club if he does that. To be honest if he pouts and loafs again next year and doesn't listen to the coaches I'd trade his ass.

I’m sure it was a very hard adjustment. But he’s just going to have to re-do it again next year. It’s never going to be easy.