Prospect Info: 2018/19 Marlies & Prospects Thread Part V

[Morgs]

Thanks for the respectful post on Kral. A certain someone decided to post an attacking post just because I said something good about him.

I've always been one of Kral's biggest supporters. I had him ranked 35th~ in the draft last season, so you know I got him.

I think the marginal difference in production being a year older is a tad worrying, but he's the exact mould of defenseman that Dubas seems to love and fits in the modern day NHL where transition, pucks skills, and skating are the biggest strengths (Dermott, Liljegren, Sandin, Lindgren, Hollowell, etc).

 

[Orfieus]

There is one thing I don't understand about Liljegren, if Sandin is the better Dman wby does that mean Liljegren underperformed / not NHL caliber?

Can someone please tell me what I am missing?

 

[RoadWarrior]

There is one thing I don't understand about Liljegren, if Sandin is the better Dman wby does that mean Liljegren underperformed / not NHL caliber?

Can someone please tell me what I am missing?

Leaf fans need a goat. The fan base has decided that they like Sandin more than Liljegren even though they are completely different players and play different sides of the ice and most fans haven’t ever seen them play a game together.

 

[Matthews34]

There is one thing I don't understand about Liljegren, if Sandin is the better Dman wby does that mean Liljegren underperformed / not NHL caliber?

Can someone please tell me what I am missing?

You're not missing anything you're just capable of complex thinking.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Versatile Marlies forward Pierre Engvall could be a solution...

The Maple Leafs’ seventh-round pick, 188th overall, in the 2014 draft, Engvall has made enormous strides in his development since joining the Marlies at the end of the 2017-18 season. Even still, he is not an offensive juggernaut or a top prospect in the organization, but what has made him one to watch is his positional versatility — and that could have him on the fast track to the NHL.

“We thought his size and the way he can skate, the strength – we thought he might be suited to be a centre,” Keefe said of the 6-foot-5 and 215-pound Engvall.

Keefe said before the move they had been preparing Engvall secretly in practice, asking him to take a few faceoffs and stay down low in defensive coverage. Little things to see how he could transition into a centreman.

“There are little things to continue to work at and clean up,” Keefe said. “But considering he never really played centre in his career and doing it this time of year at this level and doing well with it is a great sign.”

Engvall, a left-handed shot, recently returned to the wing, but his stint at centre won’t be his last and could have bigger picture implications for the Maple Leafs organization.

“(The decision) was more looking down the line at something we may entertain for our own purposes and also for the organization,” Keefe said. “Looking at it there is not a lot of depth there at the centre ice position, so if you can develop one that would be an advantage.”

 

[Einzakin]

There is one thing I don't understand about Liljegren, if Sandin is the better Dman wby does that mean Liljegren underperformed / not NHL caliber?

Can someone please tell me what I am missing?

Sandin who is younger, has performed better. He's considered an untouchable by Leafs management, Liljegren is not.

Your performance is related to your peers and the rest of the league. Right now Tim has not shown he can dominate at the AHL level. Rasmus has to an extent, in shorter time. He is closer to being NHL ready as of now. That could change.

Liljegren regressed in points, but has supposedly gotten better defensively (that is debatable). The games I've watched he can look good, but can make mistakes at times. Seems like he has that elite talent but hasn't put it all together yet. Probably has slighty higher ceiling than Sandin, but who knows if he'll reach it.

What you're missing is the truth because around here nobody's bad. Everyone's a perferct prospect. f***ing Kral got 2 points in 12 WHL playoff games and also got hurt, yet he's had a good playoffs. He should be on the Marlies. He'll be in the NHL in 2 years. Just lol, just f***ing lol. Too many yesmen around here who are kid fans and don't actually watch and critique the team. If we had them running the team Mason Marchment and Pierre Engvall would make the f***ing Leafs next year.

 

[Einzakin]

He was overwhelming. Rosen was good when Lilly was with him. When Lilly got hurt, Rosen fell off a cliff.
Sandin and Lilly are playing 25+ minutes a game.

Rosen fell off a cliff.

Without Timothy Liljegren, Rosen had 20 pts in 27 and a bit games.

Without Rosen, Timothy Liljgren had 1 pt in 5 games.

Timothy Liljgren had 67 shots this year in 43 games. That's a guy who's supposed to be a top player in the NHL soon according to ou. He's got 67 shots in THE AHL. Getting TOP MINUTES supposedly. How does this translate to him being NHL ready? How?

 

[LeafChief]

Rosen fell off a cliff.

Without Timothy Liljegren, Rosen had 20 pts in 27 and a bit games.

Without Rosen, Timothy Liljgren had 1 pt in 5 games.

Timothy Liljgren had 67 shots this year in 43 games. That's a guy who's supposed to be a top player in the NHL soon according to ou. He's got 67 shots in THE AHL. Getting TOP MINUTES supposedly. How does this translate to him being NHL ready? How?

Seems someone has a bone to pick.

 

[biotk]

There is one thing I don't understand about Liljegren, if Sandin is the better Dman wby does that mean Liljegren underperformed / not NHL caliber?

Can someone please tell me what I am missing?

My reason for changing my assessment has absolutely nothing to do with Sandin, and everything to do with poor progress that Liljegren has made at this time.

I said after last season that I remained very high on Liljegren, but was concerned with his lack of production. I gave several reasons that might have accounted for that lack of production, but said that if it didn't improve this season I would change my assessment of him. It didn't and I changed my assessment of him instead of succumbing to cognitive dissonance and making a bunch of excuses.

People went on an on about how he was ranked whereever in PPG among 18 year old D in AHL history. I didn't (and don't) care about that as there was almost no one to compare that to.

This year a number of D (7) from the first 3 rounds of his draft joined the AHL. At the start of the season everyone (meaning all Leafs fans posting about it) believed that he would easily outproduce all of them (except for maybe Brannstrom). That was a reasonable expectation. He had a year of AHL experience. He was on the top pairing with Rosen. He has always been heralded as an offensive D. He didn't outproduce them. They all outproduced him. Leafs fans just switched to saying that points no longer matter, and started saying that Liljegren was great defensively.

I think that Liljegren is currently a very good AHL defenseman, but lots of very good AHL defensemen can't make the next jump. Production matters. It is the biggest indicator of success at the next level. For years I have considered an AHL pace of 30 even strength points (or at least close to that number) projected over 82 games in a season as a decent benchmark for a D being ready for the NHL.

Holl and Dermott exceed that last year. Sandin and Rosen this year. Jokiharju and Valimaki as well (and the other 5 D taken in first three rounds of his draft class who played in the AHL - they all exceeded Liljegren). Even Kylington who is now a 6/7 for Calgary exceeded 30. The no offense Pysyk was pacing for 26 ES points in his AHL rookie season. Liljegren was pacing for 17 ES in rookie season and 17 ES points this year. That's bad (over the last 3 seasons on the Marlies pretty much only 3 D have been lower during a season - LoVerde this year, Rosen last year, and Valiev the year before). Of course that can change. Rosen had a difficult transition to North America last year and was pacing for 16 ES points last year before rocketing up to a 41 ES point pace this year. Maybe with a healthy season Liljegren will put it all together. Maybe he is a late bloomer - but late bloomers very rarely were standouts at 16 years old.

Those are part of the reasons why I not optimistic about Liljegren's prospects going forward. It has nothing to do with Sandin. It has nothing to do with not being able to handle two great D prospects at the same time (I felt very highly about both at the start of the season, and wish I was feeling highly about both now) and it has nothing to do with needing a goat (I have never needed one, or even wanted one). I hope like hell that he will put in a great year in the AHL next year. But at this time he deserves to be downgraded in people's expectations. And for me the expectations that I have for Liljegren are that I believe that he get some games - but not many - for the Leafs' in 2020-2021 on the third pairing (if he is not traded first) and will not be a Leaf for much longer than that (as I think that the organization will not want to keep him under the local media microscope, and would prefer to give him a chance to develop into an NHL regular elsewhere if it doesn't happen in Toronto in the next couple years). That is not rosy like people would like, but I have been a hockey fan for many decades and I have seen countless first round prospects falter. Liljegren was a high risk, high reward prospect on draft day. He remains a high risk, high reward prospect today, but the likelihood of high reward (which was never great) has fallen dramatically in my opinion.

 

[Einzakin]

Seems someone has a bone to pick.

Nope. I just pushback when people can handle a prospect isn't developing perfectly. Still said he was good but he's got some holes, and needs to take the next step next year. Don't be offended.

 

[Einzakin]

My reason for changing my assessment has absolutely nothing to do with Sandin, and everything to do with poor progress that Liljegren has made at this time.

I said after last season that I remained very high on Liljegren, but was concerned with his lack of production. I gave several reasons that might have accounted for that lack of production, but said that if it didn't improve this season I would change my assessment of him. It didn't and I changed my assessment of him instead of succumbing to cognitive dissonance and making a bunch of excuses.

People went on an on about how he was ranked whereever in PPG among 18 year old D in AHL history. I didn't (and don't) care about that as there was almost no one to compare that to.

This year a number of D (7) from the first 3 rounds of his draft joined the AHL. At the start of the season everyone (meaning all Leafs fans posting about it) believed that he would easily outproduce all of them (except for maybe Brannstrom). That was a reasonable expectation. He had a year of AHL experience. He was on the top pairing with Rosen. He has always been heralded as an offensive D. He didn't outproduce them. They all outproduced him. Leafs fans just switched to saying that points no longer matter, and started saying that Liljegren was great defensively.

I think that Liljegren is currently a very good AHL defenseman, but lots of very good AHL defensemen can't make the next jump. Production matters. It is the biggest indicator of success at the next level. For years I have considered an AHL pace of 30 even strength points (or at least close to that number) projected over 82 games in a season as a decent benchmark for a D being ready for the NHL.

Holl and Dermott exceed that last year. Sandin and Rosen this year. Jokiharju and Valimaki as well (and the other 5 D taken in first three rounds of his draft class who played in the AHL - they all exceeded Liljegren). Even Kylington who is now a 6/7 for Calgary exceeded 30. The no offense Pysyk was pacing for 26 ES points in his AHL rookie season. Liljegren was pacing for 17 ES in rookie season and 17 ES points this year. That's bad (over the last 3 seasons on the Marlies pretty much only 3 D have been lower during a season - LoVerde this year, Rosen last year, and Valiev the year before). Of course that can change. Rosen had a difficult transition to North America last year and was pacing for 16 ES points last year before rocketing up to a 41 ES point pace this year. Maybe with a healthy season Liljegren will put it all together. Maybe he is a late bloomer - but late bloomers very rarely were standouts at 16 years old.

Those are part of the reasons why I not optimistic about Liljegren's prospects going forward. It has nothing to do with Sandin. It has nothing to do with not being able to handle two great D prospects at the same time (I felt very highly about both at the start of the season, and wish I was feeling highly about both now) and it has nothing to do with needing a goat (I have never needed one, or even wanted one). I hope like hell that he will put in a great year in the AHL next year. But at this time he deserves to be downgraded in people's expectations. And for me the expectations that I have for Liljegren are that I believe that he get some games - but not many - for the Leafs' in 2020-2021 on the third pairing (if he is not traded first) and will not be a Leaf for much longer than that (as I think that the organization will not want to keep him under the local media microscope, and would prefer to give him a chance to develop into an NHL regular elsewhere if it doesn't happen in Toronto in the next couple years). That is not rosy like people would like, but I have been a hockey fan for many decades and I have seen countless first round prospects falter. Liljegren was a high risk, high reward prospect on draft day. He remains a high risk, high reward prospect today, but the likelihood of high reward (which was never great) has fallen dramatically in my opinion.

Thank goodness. You've restored my faith a little bit. I'm tired of the fanboys always seeing what they want to see and crying whenever someone tells the truth.

 

[LeafChief]

Nope. I just pushback when people can handle a prospect isn't developing perfectly. Still said he was good but he's got some holes, and needs to take the next step next year. Don't be offended.

Not offended.

Just seems weird you seemingly popped up when another poster with a similar thought process seems to have disappeared.

 

[Orfieus]

Sandin who is younger, has performed better. He's considered an untouchable by Leafs management, Liljegren is not.

Your performance is related to your peers and the rest of the league. Right now Tim has not shown he can dominate at the AHL level. Rasmus has to an extent, in shorter time. He is closer to being NHL ready as of now. That could change.

Liljegren regressed in points, but has supposedly gotten better defensively (that is debatable). The games I've watched he can look good, but can make mistakes at times. Seems like he has that elite talent but hasn't put it all together yet. Probably has slighty higher ceiling than Sandin, but who knows if he'll reach it.

What you're missing is the truth because around here nobody's bad. Everyone's a perferct prospect. ****ing Kral got 2 points in 12 WHL playoff games and also got hurt, yet he's had a good playoffs. He should be on the Marlies. He'll be in the NHL in 2 years. Just lol, just ****ing lol. Too many yesmen around here who are kid fans and don't actually watch and critique the team. If we had them running the team Mason Marchment and Pierre Engvall would make the ****ing Leafs next year.

"The games I've watched he can look good, but can make mistakes at times", the exact same thing can be said about Sandin, but it is really a meaningless statement.

The reality is this, when Liljigren was given more responsibility you expected the same flashy player as last year when he was a 3rd pairing RHD who mainly got OZone starts and wasn't even on the PK. Liljigren might have fewer points this year (from a slow start + a serious foot injury) but to proclaim he regressed because Sandin is the better player is absurd. To claim Liljigren regressed because of his point totals (after one season no less) is absurd. And your "judgment" of Liljigren is absurd.

edit: at most you can say Liljigren had a tough year.

 

[Einzakin]

"The games I've watched he can look good, but can make mistakes at times", the exact same thing can be said about Sandin, but it is really a meaningless statement.

The reality is this, when Liljigren was given more responsibility you expected the same flashy player as last year when he was a 3rd pairing RHD who mainly got OZone starts and wasn't even on the PK. Liljigren might have fewer points this year (from a slow start + a serious foot injury) but to proclaim he regressed because Sandin is the better player is absurd. To claim Liljigren regressed because of his point totals (after one season no less) is absurd. And your "judgment" of Liljigren is absurd.

Rasmus Sandin's hockey IQ is insane. He is so good positionally he rarely gets beat and rarely turns the puck over.

T-Lil can get beat wide but he's often fast enough at the AHL level he can usually make up for it. He needs to be better positionally. He turns the puck over on breakouts sometimes. He can get muscled off the puck.

The same can't be said about Sandin. Two completely different players. Lilgren has regressed in the sense that we all expected him to dominate the AHL this year. He's moved down in the organizational rankings. I'd call that regression. He's not a bust yet though, but if he doesn't step it up next year I think they'll trade him.

 

[Einzakin]

Not offended.

Just seems weird you seemingly popped up when another poster with a similar thought process seems to have disappeared.

The f*** are you talking about?

Are you calling this a conspiracy? Are we the same poster. Just Lol dude. Maybe two people see the obvious? The things the Leaf management see. The things analysts see.

My goodness.

 

[Orfieus]

Rasmus Sandin's hockey IQ is insane. He is so good positionally he rarely gets beat and rarely turns the puck over.

T-Lil can get beat wide but he's often fast enough at the AHL level he can usually make up for it. He needs to be better positionally. He turns the puck over on breakouts sometimes. He can get muscled off the puck.

The same can't be said about Sandin. Two completely different players. Lilgren has regressed in the sense that we all expected him to dominate the AHL this year. He's moved down in the organizational rankings. I'd call that regression. He's not a bust yet though, but if he doesn't step it up next year I think they'll trade him.

WRONG! Stop talking about Sandin, we are talking about Liljigren. Are you saying those issues never presented themselves when he was on the 3rd pairing?

edit: I'm getting bored talking about this so let me keep this simple, if Liljigren was put on the 3rd pairing do you think his performacewould have improved?

 

[LeafChief]

The **** are you talking about?

Are you calling this a conspiracy? Are we the same poster. Just Lol dude. Maybe two people see the obvious? The things the Leaf management see. The things analysts see.

My goodness.

Very consistent that the two of you freak out on posters that don't seem to agree with your position.

If you've noticed, I haven't questioned your opinion once. Just pointing out that 'burner' accounts are against the CoC.

 

[Einzakin]

WRONG! Stop talking about Sandin, we are talking about Liljigren. Are you saying those issues never presented themselves when he was on the 3rd pairing?

edit: I'm getting bored talking about this so let me keep this simple, if Liljigren was put on the 3rd pairing do you think his performacewould have improved?

Ok if you're bored,,, baiiiiii.

 

[Einzakin]

Very consistent that the two of you freak out on posters that don't seem to agree with your position.

If you've noticed, I haven't questioned your opinion once. Just pointing out that 'burner' accounts are against the CoC.

I would counter with it seems like people are freaking out on anyone who doesn't agree that Liljegren is the greatest. Personal attacks, etc.

I've stated opinions and facts. I've been pretty calm. You wanna get all sad and mad and tatrum that's fine. That stuff may work on people in your personal life but I could GAF.

And yah this is a burner account from 2011. It's all a conspiracy. We're all out to get Timothy Liljegren and we hate the Leafs!!! You caught me bro. You caught me.

 

[LeafChief]

I would counter with it seems like people are freaking out on anyone who doesn't agree that Liljegren is the greatest. Personal attacks, etc.

I've stated opinions and facts. I've been pretty calm. You wanna get all sad and mad and tatrum that's fine. That stuff may work on people in your personal life but I could GAF.

And yah this is a burner account from 2011. It's all a conspiracy. We're all out to get Timothy Liljegren and we hate the Leafs!!! You caught me bro. You caught me.

You seem triggered.

 

[Orfieus]

Ok if you're bored,,, baiiiiii.

I'm putting this regressed topic to rest, and you probably know exactly what I was getting at which is why you decided to avoid my question. If Liljigren was put back on the 3rd pairing he probably would have been the same player as last year. Only getting OZone starts, easy pairings, limited icetime. So the simple fact is if Liljigren isn't worse then last year how did he regress?

Liljigren didn't regress but instead cemented himself as a #1RHD Dman in the AHL at the age of 19. I wonder what type of AHL player he will be next year at age 20???

 

[Einzakin]

You seem triggered.

Cool story man. It's all a conspiracy.

 

[Einzakin]

I'm putting this regressed topic to rest, and you probably know exactly what I was getting at which is why you decided to avoid my question. If Liljigren was put back on the 3rd pairing he probably would have been the same player as last year. Only getting OZone starts, easy pairings, limited icetime. So the simple fact is if Liljigren isn't worse then last year how did he regress?

Liljigren didn't regress but instead cemented himself as a #1RHD Dman in the AHL at the age of 19. I wonder what type of AHL player he will be next year at age 20???

It's a fair question. I think it's harder to play on the 1st pairing. I don't dispute he's gotten harder minutes. He was in the top 4 his first year. He just hasn't improved like I want him to. He just hasn't had an offensive impact. We can give him excuses all day, but the truth is he hasn't met expectations. This is why I said I still like him, but it's not NHL ready. Being NHL ready is performing and exceeding in those positions. Posters here are getting mad because I'm saying he has a few holes and should not be called up to the NHL for a while. Not until he domiantes the AHL. This is how this how thing started and why all these posters keep whining.

Sandin has (based solely on twitter comments and one Dubas comments) played more minutes. Probably not harder minutes. He's earned being on the top PP. Why wouldn't they give that to Liljegren? Why didn't Tim command that spot. Sandin took it from him. Sandin progressed more. Sandin has earned a callup before him. That's all I'm saying.

Tim isn't a bad player. He just hasn't progressed like some of us would have liked him to. He's not NHL ready yet. He makes too many mistakes. Maybe he will fix those. If the best arugment is he is on the top pairing give him a break. No. You need to dominate as a top pairing in the AHL to be even a 7/8 D in the NHL.

 

[Jeypic]

Liljegren is better at hockey now then he was a year ago. His offence hasn’t taken off like we all hoped for, but he is a more complete player. He also still possesses elite vision and passing, and is an above average skater as far as prospects go.

He will be an nhl dman, i think next year we’ll have a much better idea as to just how good of one he can be. Aside from injuries slowing things down for him.. i am just fine with how he has developed thus far.

 

[Einzakin]

Liljegren is better at hockey now then he was a year ago. His offence hasn’t taken off like we all hoped for, but he is a more complete player. He also still possesses elite vision and passing, and is an above average skater as far as prospects go.

He will be an nhl dman, i think next year we’ll have a much better idea as to just how good of one he can be. Aside from injuries slowing things down for him.. i am just fine with how he has developed thus far.

If he turns out he is having the type of season Morgan did with Babs I'd be ecstatic. Only focusing on D for a year and really honing in, that would be perfect. If he can do that this year, and then next year dominate offensively, I'll eat every bad word I had of him. One can hope.