Safe assumption, but he was pretty scathing with his pre camp words for Staal, at least by AV standards.
Staal's play so far can't be very inspiring either, but who knows.
News Article: 2017 Training Camp & Pre-Season Discussion
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Safe assumption, but he was pretty scathing with his pre camp words for Staal, at least by AV standards.
Staal's play so far can't be very inspiring either, but who knows.
The problem with Andersson is that we’ve been sold all summer that he’s nhl ready. So that’s where the disappointment comes from. He’s not nhl ready. He’s not close to nhl ready frankly. He looks exactly the same as he did in TCT.
Then you have Chytil looking fantastic. So makes him look even worse.
Also hurts watching Suzuki who has looked great. I haven’t seen midlestadt.
As far as the E goes can’t believe this in even an argument but it’s Beacon so there’s that. Your leftovers go to the E. Nothing more.
Then you have Chytil looking fantastic. So makes him look even worse.
Also hurts watching Suzuki who has looked great. I haven’t seen midlestadt.
As far as the E goes can’t believe this in even an argument but it’s Beacon so there’s that. Your leftovers go to the E. Nothing more.
Yeah, that makes a bit more sense. "Don't believe the hype" is always my default position for prospects, so I was pretty skeptical of him making the team (unless we decided we were really desperate for a 3rd line centre).
I've only seen the one preseason game (last night), but I thought he looked ok without being great. A year in Sweden should be good for him
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
Yes, thats a given, but I see 8 established NHL'ers who are top 9 forwards, and then if we keep Chytil or Andersson, I don't think you keep them unless they are top 9 players, so I'd expect them all to produce at a top 9 level. I'm not saying random draft picks out of junior get a spot ahead of Grabner, we are talking about top 9 forwards. For all we know, Grabner might not be a top 9 forward this season. He's kind of rotated good and bad seasons during his career.
Beacon
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I think he was not good. They're playing against NHLers who don't care and minor leaguers. You should look good early in preseason if you're even a midlevel AHLer. He was invisible. Not one play where I looked at him and thought, "that was a real nice play."
Harbour Dog
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And what criteria are you using to declare him 'not good for a #7'? I can easily see him coming back in 2018 with another year of development and putting up mid 30s in points just like the majority of the guys Mike listed. He never stood out, no doubt, but it just seems like you're piling on the kid because he doesn't appear to be immediately NHL ready.
Beacon
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There was not one play LA made that made me think that it was a nice play. The best that can be said of him is that he didn't fall on his face, but that's not much to brag about when you play against NHLers who don't care and a ton of minor leaguers. If in a year he comes in here and shows something great, then fine. But it's not a year from now, it's today and right now, he is nowhere near NHL ready. In October, teams won't be playing their v version of Kampfer, they will play their version of McDonagh who will be going 100% trying to win games. LA would get humiliated right now if he played against NHLers trying 100%. A year from now things may be different, but there's no reason to believe he can compete in the NHL today.
Harbour Dog
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Not making an excuse for him in TCT or pre-season, but his game may never be predicated on making memorable plays. My expectations weren't to see him create a bunch of offense, but I was hoping for him to win more board battles and put more pressure on the opposing D than he did. Hopefully after a full season of top 6 ice time with Frolunda, he comes back stronger and hungrier next year.
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Harbour Dog
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Yes, I understand that @Beacon - it might be too early for LA this year. And we don`t have multiple options and depth in that position. And I don`t believe to use Miller as center and think now all is fine.. We will probably see another move by GM J. Gorton who is always looking for opportunities to improve the team and get younger in the process.
I`m saying might, because Lias A. has a great camp consider his age and with 2 pts. in each games he has participated in including the OT winner goal.
The late goal against us vs Devils was Smith`s man who was closest to block the shot or do something.
I`m saying might, because Lias A. has a great camp consider his age and with 2 pts. in each games he has participated in including the OT winner goal.
The late goal against us vs Devils was Smith`s man who was closest to block the shot or do something.
Harbour Dog
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I'm unphased. Never expected him to be an NHLer out of the gate anyway. Gonna be fun to follow him with Frolunda this year!
Beacon
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Again, that's because players normally cannot turn pro until the age of 20. If you're not good enough to make the AHL at the age of 20, you're probably a terrible prospect, whether you go to the ECHL or to the Juniors as an overagers. How many overagers make the NHL?
The idea that the ECHL is worse than the OHL is just ignorance. Sam Noreau had .50 ppg in the Juniors. A year later, he had .15 in the ECHL. About the same for Troy Donnay. Michael St. Croix had 1.5 ppg in the Juniors and only 0.7-0.8 in his several ECHL seasons despite being older. Josh Nicholls had 1.2 ppg in WHL and 0.67 in the ECHL. Chris McCarthy had over ppg in college, then only a little over half ppg in the ECHL. Andrew Yogan had 1.2 in the Juniors and 0.8 in the ECHL. Richard Nejezchleb had over ppg in the WHL and half of that in the WHL. I think that's everyone we had in the ECHL in recent years, but remind me if I forgot someone.
This also cannot be explained by saying that ECHL is less offensive than the Juniors because goalies also do worse in the ECHL than the Juniors. Look at Halverson's OHL stats (both on a good team and a so-so team a year later) vs his ECHL stats. Same for Skapski, though he may have the excuse of coming off an injury. Malcolm X had 2.24 in Yale, then 2.90 in Greenville. Dov Grumet-Morris briefly played for the Pack. He was a terrific college goalie, then joined the ECHL and was at first very average there (he got better with time, but the Dov who dominated college couldn't dominate E). Greenville goalie Nicola Riopel was great in the QMJHL (2.05 and .930) and then became an average ECHL goalie.
The ECHL is a tougher league than the OHL/QMJHL/WHL. Easily and by a wide margin. Any ECHL team will sweep 90% of the Junior teams in a best-of-7 playoff format. A couple Junior teams may have a superstar or even two who could singlehandedly take over games, but outside of a dozen or so stars, the Juniors are far weaker than the ECHL, which is why goalies, defensemen, forwards all find it harder to play in the E than O, Q, W or NCAA.
Beacon
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Lias was never going to solve our C problems this year. The issue is not lacking a guy who can kinda sorta keep up on the bottom-6. The issue is that we do not have a 1C. Lias can't be that this year.
As for our 4C, Nieves is a better option. He has the size, the speed and the ability to tie up the puck in the offensive zone that helps when you are sending out your 4th line.
As for our 4C, Nieves is a better option. He has the size, the speed and the ability to tie up the puck in the offensive zone that helps when you are sending out your 4th line.
I don't think the argument on Day should be about OHL vs ECHL, it should be Windsor vs Greenville, i'd much rather he be in Windsor which is a very good program.
Also, still don't get your (Beacon) fascination with comparing leagues so much? You also do it in very weird ways where you only use raw PPG, never any context.
Also, still don't get your (Beacon) fascination with comparing leagues so much? You also do it in very weird ways where you only use raw PPG, never any context.
Beacon
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To determine how well a guy is doing, step 1 is his league, aka his opposition. Tanner Glass can look like Wayne Gretzky in a beer league and was a star in college. You can't compare Shesterkin doing well in the KHL with St. Croix doing wel in the Juniors or Fogarty in BCHL. Context matters, and the quality of the league is prine context.
I am not judging leagues by stats alone, though that's not the worst way to judge things when every single player we had did worse in the ECHL (stat-wise) than the prior year in the Juniors. If it were 1-2 players, no biggie, but when it's *every* player, something is up.
I could cite the fact in watching an occasional ECHL and Junior game, it is obvious to me which is higher level hockey, but then a person disagrees, and how do you argue except to cite a consistent pattern of stats? It's the closest objective measure we have.
You want a kid in the best league where he can survive. Day should be in the E if he's good enough for it.
I am not judging leagues by stats alone, though that's not the worst way to judge things when every single player we had did worse in the ECHL (stat-wise) than the prior year in the Juniors. If it were 1-2 players, no biggie, but when it's *every* player, something is up.
I could cite the fact in watching an occasional ECHL and Junior game, it is obvious to me which is higher level hockey, but then a person disagrees, and how do you argue except to cite a consistent pattern of stats? It's the closest objective measure we have.
You want a kid in the best league where he can survive. Day should be in the E if he's good enough for it.
I think the problem is that we haven't had a high pick in a while. I think its good that we keep expectations in shack, because we are certainly also often guilty of hyping kids too much.
But it doesn't look unlikely that only 2 kids from this years draft will play in the NHL this season, Hischer and Patrick. The two best picks playing for the worst teams. Since 2000, 1 of 16 seventh overall picks played instantly in the NHL, but our guy had a horrible camp and was an embarrassment because he didn't make it? I don't know every word that has been said, but to me at most I've heard people "flirting" with the idea of Lias playing instantly, while still in most cases saying that even if he where to be ready, it would still probably be best to return him.
To me that just say more about some posters expectations and not realistic evaluations made in the right context. But I assume that its only a natural side effect of the fact that we haven't had any 1st round picks in a while, and certainly no high picks.
The starting point when evaluating a 1st round pick must be:
-If you go back and look at drafts not only when the players just got into the league, or not, but when their careers are done, you see that at least 50 percent of the 1st round picks never even become meaningful contributors.
And this has actually very little to do with range, the only exception really is the very good absolute top picks. McD, AO, Malkin, Crosby and co. They don't bust often. But there are plenty of top 10 picks busting, the quantity of kids filling that criteria is actually a bit scary.
-Its very rare that 18 y/o's come in and contribute right away. Very rare. It is not an exaggeration to claim that any expectations of a top 5-10 pick to come in and contribute directly is completely unrealistic. As a matter of fact, this also applies on year 2. Its unrealistic to expect a kid to contribute his 2nd year too looking at facts. 21-23 is where you can expect more, normally.
-There are very few top players being picked in a 1st round. And with 30 teams in the league, the average top 2-3 player per team isn't even that great. The second highest scoring forward on a team in the NHL scores around 55 pts on average.
If we assume that a top forward has a 10 year career, 2 per team, that is 60 in the NHL on average. 6 per year with a 10 year career. A solid normal 1st round should have 4-5 forwards who scores up towards 50 pts. The top 2 forwards often does well. That leaves 2-3 forwards of the remaining 29 picks...
IN THIS CONTEXT, Lias is a -- good -- pick if he can come in and contribute on par with like a JT Miller. You could probably label it a very good pick. Would it sting if Mittlestad or someone becomes a Tarasenko II for another team? Sure. But the NHL draft is a crap shot, and extremely few picks get it right. We can't be talking about more than a few odd percent actually picking the "best" player at a certain position. And the odds of getting someone that doesn't contribute much if any at all isn't that low either.
Lias has potential to become better than that, but like I've said from the get go, it probably requires that he can add another step in his skating.
This is what I wrote on him during the WJSS, and I still stand by it:
I would like to add in the discussion that very few here have witness the camp training sessions live. And most of us have only watched the pre-season games in an evaluation if a player is ready or not playing in NHL in such a consideration. And both Lias A. & Chytil may have impressed the coaching staff while training so it possible to make the team since they are so high talented skilled in the draft.
We don`t have enough wingers if Miller is going to play a center role this season - so Chytil might end up playing in a wing role for instant in the beginning of the season, because Fast is injured.
If they continue to use Miller as wing which is more likely since he had 56 pts. last year - Lias A. have a chance to center the 3rd line this season, and that is an amazing feat, and no point to send him back to Sweden. Because he will get better and improve his skating and overall skillset while learning how to adapt to NHL. And he won`t adapt to NHL in Sweden - he will play on large ice in a different environment.
I`m not even adding the New York coaching staff in the player development here in New York - they are probably more experience compare to the coaching staff in Sweden as well with perfect training facilities to work on quickness, skating, fitness, endurance, balance, and other important attributes to be successful in NHL.
And we could easy end up in games when Lias A. in a center positon with a 3rd line like this, but they will probably get more ice with Miller & Zucc on the same line - so it`s not really a 3rd line.
Forwards
Kreider - Zib - Buch
Nash - Hayes - Vesey
Miller - Lias A. (Chytil) - Zucc
Matt Puempel (Chytil) - Nieves (Chytil) - Grabner
(David Desharnais, Gabriel Fontaine.)
(Fast injured.)
________________________________________
Defense
Ryan Mc. - Shattenkirk
Skjei - DeAngelo (Smith)
Smith (Pionk) - Pionk (DeAngelo)
(Holden, Staal, Graves.)
Henrik
Pavelec
*Instead you`ve another player who can win faceoffs if Lias struggle with JT Miller on the same line, but Lias had over 69 FO% in his last game with 16:14 TOI while centring Nash who had an excellent game.
And it`s also a bonus if both Vesey & Buch continue their promising progression to be a more of an impact player in NHL this year.
We don`t have enough wingers if Miller is going to play a center role this season - so Chytil might end up playing in a wing role for instant in the beginning of the season, because Fast is injured.
If they continue to use Miller as wing which is more likely since he had 56 pts. last year - Lias A. have a chance to center the 3rd line this season, and that is an amazing feat, and no point to send him back to Sweden. Because he will get better and improve his skating and overall skillset while learning how to adapt to NHL. And he won`t adapt to NHL in Sweden - he will play on large ice in a different environment.
I`m not even adding the New York coaching staff in the player development here in New York - they are probably more experience compare to the coaching staff in Sweden as well with perfect training facilities to work on quickness, skating, fitness, endurance, balance, and other important attributes to be successful in NHL.
And we could easy end up in games when Lias A. in a center positon with a 3rd line like this, but they will probably get more ice with Miller & Zucc on the same line - so it`s not really a 3rd line.
Forwards
Kreider - Zib - Buch
Nash - Hayes - Vesey
Miller - Lias A. (Chytil) - Zucc
Matt Puempel (Chytil) - Nieves (Chytil) - Grabner
(David Desharnais, Gabriel Fontaine.)
(Fast injured.)
________________________________________
Defense
Ryan Mc. - Shattenkirk
Skjei - DeAngelo (Smith)
Smith (Pionk) - Pionk (DeAngelo)
(Holden, Staal, Graves.)
Henrik
Pavelec
*Instead you`ve another player who can win faceoffs if Lias struggle with JT Miller on the same line, but Lias had over 69 FO% in his last game with 16:14 TOI while centring Nash who had an excellent game.
And it`s also a bonus if both Vesey & Buch continue their promising progression to be a more of an impact player in NHL this year.
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BBKers
Registered User
I would like to add in the discussion that very few here have witness the camp training sessions live. And most of us have only watched the pre-season games in an evaluation if a player is ready or not playing in NHL in such a consideration. And both Lias A. & Chytil may have impressed the coaching staff while training so it possible to make the team since they are so high talented skilled in the draft.
We don`t have enough wingers if Miller is going to play a center role this season - so Chytil might end up playing in a wing role for instant in the beginning of the season, because Fast is injured.
If they continue to use Miller as wing which is more likely since he had 56 pts. last year - Lias A. have a chance to center the 3rd line this season, and that is an amazing feat, and no point to send him back to Sweden. Because he will get better and improve his skating and overall skillset while learning how to adapt to NHL. And he won`t adapt to NHL in Sweden - he will play on large ice in a different environment.
I`m not even adding the New York coaching staff in the player development here in New York - they are probably more experience compare to the coaching staff in Sweden as well with perfect facilities to work on quickness, skating, fitness, endurance, balance, and other important attributes to be successful in NHL.
And we could easy end up in games when Lias A. in a center positon with a 3rd line like this, but they will probably get more ice with Miller & Zucc on the same line - so it`s not really a 3rd line.
Kreider - Zib - Buch
Nash - Hayes - Vesey
Miller - Lias A. - Zucc
Grabner - Nieves - Chytil
(Fast injured.)
So something to think about before you exclude anyone from this year training camp 2017-18 season! ))
*Instead you`ve another player who can win faceoffs if Lias struggle with JT Miller on the same line, but Lias had over 69 FO% in his last game with 16:14 TOI while centring Nash who had an excellent game.
Very good points - especially about practice - and also correct from what I understand. Some of these "analysts" here are becoming unbearable. Their negativity likely has its root in personal favorites getting passed over at the draft. All are entitled to an opinion but wtf? . Both LA and Cyril have consistently been amongst the 13 best fwd players overall in camp. I would be very surprised if both do not get a cup of coffee ...
I would package our "#1 C" with Holden to find a better bottom 6 option.
NYR Viper
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The Oilers should trade Pulujaarvi as soon as possible, he didn't make the team at 18 last year.
Matt Rentfree
Registered User
At this point, I really don't see how they don't get their cup of coffee - we have 11 forwards that will be on the roster opening night - either because they deserve to be there or because of waivers (Puempel).
We have 3 open forward slots, so assuming one goes to Nieves or Fontaine, that still leaves 2 open forward slots till Fast is off IR.
True they could keep both Nieves and Fontaine up, but even if they do, they still have an extra slot. I don't see them signing Desjardins or Farnham and no one else was particularly impressive in training camp, so worst case, one of them is getting 9 games I would think.
EDIT: Unless we go with 8 D and keep ADA and one of Pionk/Graves up as well, but I doubt that's happening.
eco's bones
Registered User
Wouldn't be surprised if the Rangers grabbed a forward off waivers towards the end of training camp and/or move Holden for a forward.
Donnay? Noreau? Nicholls? St. Croix?---****, ****, **** and ****. But anyway I look at the ECHL as something of a graveyard for anybody who is not a goalie. I wouldn't put a 19 year old kid there. John Gilmour on the other hand......I have no issue with Day going back to Windsor. It's not like he's dominated the OHL yet.
Lias Andersson's been fine.
Donnay? Noreau? Nicholls? St. Croix?---****, ****, **** and ****. But anyway I look at the ECHL as something of a graveyard for anybody who is not a goalie. I wouldn't put a 19 year old kid there. John Gilmour on the other hand......I have no issue with Day going back to Windsor. It's not like he's dominated the OHL yet.
Lias Andersson's been fine.
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