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2017 Offseason Thread 5.0 Summer Doldrums

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deeshamrock said:
First of all, I'm not a guy, I'm a female fan. And secondly, that answer doesn't support what I commented on. Sticking up for yourself , in DD's case, doesn't mean fighting, which you can't seem to get.
And Leadership, is a huge part of a a team success and tied to the locker room
Kick's lack thereof has affected them and the results over the last 3 years are tied to it.
Click to expand...

I honestly couldn't care less about your gender. But it seemed important to you, to bring that up, so im glad I was able to give you a opportunity.

And as far as the kings poor performance the past 3 years, could it be because we essentially lost 2 top line wingers (williams gone and gabby who is a shell of the cup run gabby) and talent wise a top pairing d man (voynov)?

Could it be that we have yet to replace those spots with even close to comparable talent?

I guess its probably grit, leadership, toughness. That makes more sense...
 
Tkachuk obviously targeted Doughty. First was the elbow, then he called him out in the media and then proceeded to target him all game while Doughty just took it.

Doughty doesn't have to fight him, although he is bigger and the season was toast anyways so I'm not worried about a broken hand at that point, but he needed to do something.

We've beaten the dead horse of the Kings response via trashing Clifford, Andreoff etc...but Doughty is given a pass. Why? Toews, Crosby, Malkin...even Jeff Carter fought his own battle this past season. Again, not saying he has to fight, but he can definitely go out of his way to rough Tkachuk up without having to drop the gloves.

For a guy that runs his mouth as much as he does, this whole situation was really embarrassing. Then to read he thinks this team needs more leadership and grit...oh boy. He's supposed to provide both of these things.
 
BigKing said:
Doughty doesn't have to fight him, although he is bigger and the season was toast anyways so I'm not worried about a broken hand at that point, but he needed to do something.
Click to expand...

Lol your not worried about him breaking his hand.
 
Rusty Batch said:
I honestly couldn't care less about your gender. But it seemed important to you, to bring that up, so im glad I was able to give you a opportunity.

And as far as the kings poor performance the past 3 years, could it be because we essentially lost 2 top line wingers (williams gone and gabby who is a shell of the cup run gabby) and talent wise a top pairing d man (voynov)?

Could it be that we have yet to replace those spots with even close to comparable talent?

I guess its probably grit, leadership, toughness. That makes more sense...
Click to expand...

What does the loss of talent have to do with Doughty saying the team needs grit and leadership?
 
Rusty Batch said:
I honestly couldn't care less about your gender. But it seemed important to you, to bring that up, so im glad I was able to give you a opportunity.

And as far as the kings poor performance the past 3 years, could it be because we essentially lost 2 top line wingers (williams gone and gabby who is a shell of the cup run gabby) and talent wise a top pairing d man (voynov)?

Could it be that we have yet to replace those spots with even close to comparable talent?

I guess its probably grit, leadership, toughness. That makes more sense...
Click to expand...

There's no reason it can't be a loss of talent, and grit/leadership/toughness. A lot of things have come together to create everything post-2014.
 
Rusty Batch said:
Lol your not worried about him breaking his hand.
Click to expand...

Not in the throes of a dead season.

Still, I'm not saying I need him to fight. I definitely wouldn't mind it in this situation, however. That being said, I'm not looking for him to rack up 8 FMs a year or even one for that matter.

As for the argument about Doughty being taken off the ice for five minutes...of course you want your best players out there. If Doughty sticking up for himself and inspiring his teammates leads to better play from the team in exchange for that five minute penalty that he would of taken once all season, who gives a ****? It's three minutes more than a hooking penalty or one minute more than a penalty and then an unsportsmanlike for *****ing at the ref, something he has done in the past. Difference is that the fight can pick up the entire team's play while the other two examples don't do a damn thing.

Let's look at that game in Calgary. Best moment? Iginla sticking up for Kopitar. Easily one of the highlights of the entire season. Outside of the Ducks game in Quick's first game back, that is probably the best game the Kings played all season and Iginla's work was a huge part of the equation.

A well-timed fight from one of your best players can really energize a team. In this case, it was a future HOF'er in the twilight of his career with barely any time with the Kings going up against a legit heavyweight in defense of Kopitar. If Doughty would have gone after Tkachuk in some fashion, not even a full-fledged fight, it would have endeared him to his teammates. This isn't Tony Twist we are talking about, it's ****ing Matthew Tkachuk. That leadership and grit Doughty says the team needs: he had the ability to do so. Still has that ability...this team would get pumped if he went after Tkachuk first time they play next season.

Since there isn't much to talk about right now, let me drop this little bomb of a theory:

We tear up Clifford and Andreoff for not doing anything to Tkachuk: especially in the last Calgary game at Staples when they were already eliminated from the playoffs (Clifford was scratched). Thing is both of these guys have a long history of sticking up for teammates and fighting, at least at every other level than the NHL for AA. So why didn't they do it here? Didn't do it in the game when the elbow took place and didn't do it any other time with multiple chances. So why?

Is it because Doughty is a big ***** that runs his mouth and talks a big game but never backs it up and other grown men aren't in a rush to come to his aide?
 
Rusty Batch said:
True, but it's probably more because of the loss of talent.
Click to expand...

It is definitely due more to the loss of talent; however, hockey teams can be more than the sum of their parts.

Last season was just a bunch of parts skating around out there with a noticeable lack of unity and caring for one another like the best teams display.

I do think a lot of it has to do with the dissatisfaction with Sutter. Hopefully that changes this season. Last year was not a great one for the young players to enter in to so I'm hoping for more from the veteran leaders on this team or just the vets in general. This wasn't a case of a Toffoli/Muzzin/Pearson breaking in to a team with legit veteran leaders with everyone on the same page, it was a Forbort/Gravel/LaDue/Kempe breaking in to a **** show.
 
https://www.nhl.com/kings/news/31-in-31-inside-look-at-the-la-kings/c-290664652
Improvement will need to come from within.

Stevens said he believes Kopitar, for one, can rebound after finishing with 52 points (12 goals, 40 assists), his lowest total in his 10 full NHL seasons.

"I think we'd all agree he had an off year last year," Stevens said. "I've talked to him quite a bit over the summer. I know he's training hard. I think he's excited to put last year behind him and get going this year and make amends."
Click to expand...

As for whether the Kings should be considered Stanley Cup contenders, Stevens said, "I wouldn't have taken the job here if I didn't think we could win. This is not the same team that won two Cups. But there are an awful lot of pieces that are still here. Our challenge is to get some of our top guys and their games back to where they were."
Click to expand...

Let's see how they plan to achieve that with little change in player personnel.
 
Rusty Batch said:
True, but it's probably more because of the loss of talent.
Click to expand...

It's all included. The chemistry of the team is different, and it would've been different even if they could've plugged in 2 wingers and a top 3/4 defenseman in their primes. That's why it's so difficult to not only win, but keep winning. You have to have the right guys on the team, at the right time, at the same time. Start changing elements, for whatever reasons, and things start changing.
 
theMajor said:
lest we forget the massive changes in staff/coaching personnel which should result in pretty substantial system changes, which have drawn the ire of countless posters on this board since the TM days :popcorn:
some people just want it all I guess
Click to expand...

It's also easier to play a restrictive, defensive style than it is to learn to score. You can't turn a plug into a goal scorer, but it's easy to turn a talented player into a plug (and also waste their talents).
 
King'sPawn said:
And... what does that have to do with Doughty saying the team needs more grit and leadership?
Click to expand...

I was responding to someone else who attributed the loss of "leadership" to the kings doing poorly the last 3 years...

My point was that it is much more likely that it was the large loss of talent, than a perceived loss in leadership.

Hopefully that explanation works for you and we can move on.
 
BigKing said:
Tkachuk obviously targeted Doughty. First was the elbow, then he called him out in the media and then proceeded to target him all game while Doughty just took it.

Doughty doesn't have to fight him, although he is bigger and the season was toast anyways so I'm not worried about a broken hand at that point, but he needed to do something.

We've beaten the dead horse of the Kings response via trashing Clifford, Andreoff etc...but Doughty is given a pass. Why? Toews, Crosby, Malkin...even Jeff Carter fought his own battle this past season. Again, not saying he has to fight, but he can definitely go out of his way to rough Tkachuk up without having to drop the gloves.

For a guy that runs his mouth as much as he does, this whole situation was really embarrassing. Then to read he thinks this team needs more leadership and grit...oh boy. He's supposed to provide both of these things.
Click to expand...

There should definitely have been more of a response. A rough ride into the boards, a few crosschecks, a charge. Something to show a response. The bending over and taking it up the tailpipe response wasn't acceptable.

We were at our best when Brown was destroying people and not caring about their feelings. The team would play right on the edge and would be tough to play against. The guys have become too passive. Hopefully the offseason changes will correct that.
 
Rusty Batch said:
I honestly couldn't care less about your gender. But it seemed important to you, to bring that up, so im glad I was able to give you a opportunity.

And as far as the kings poor performance the past 3 years, could it be because we essentially lost 2 top line wingers (williams gone and gabby who is a shell of the cup run gabby) and talent wise a top pairing d man (voynov)?

Could it be that we have yet to replace those spots with even close to comparable talent?

I guess its probably grit, leadership, toughness. That makes more sense...
Click to expand...

Loss more than that.

Still haven't replaced Stoll at 3C.
 
BigKing said:
Not in the throes of a dead season.

Still, I'm not saying I need him to fight. I definitely wouldn't mind it in this situation, however. That being said, I'm not looking for him to rack up 8 FMs a year or even one for that matter.

As for the argument about Doughty being taken off the ice for five minutes...of course you want your best players out there. If Doughty sticking up for himself and inspiring his teammates leads to better play from the team in exchange for that five minute penalty that he would of taken once all season, who gives a ****? It's three minutes more than a hooking penalty or one minute more than a penalty and then an unsportsmanlike for *****ing at the ref, something he has done in the past. Difference is that the fight can pick up the entire team's play while the other two examples don't do a damn thing.

Let's look at that game in Calgary. Best moment? Iginla sticking up for Kopitar. Easily one of the highlights of the entire season. Outside of the Ducks game in Quick's first game back, that is probably the best game the Kings played all season and Iginla's work was a huge part of the equation.

A well-timed fight from one of your best players can really energize a team. In this case, it was a future HOF'er in the twilight of his career with barely any time with the Kings going up against a legit heavyweight in defense of Kopitar. If Doughty would have gone after Tkachuk in some fashion, not even a full-fledged fight, it would have endeared him to his teammates. This isn't Tony Twist we are talking about, it's ****ing Matthew Tkachuk. That leadership and grit Doughty says the team needs: he had the ability to do so. Still has that ability...this team would get pumped if he went after Tkachuk first time they play next season.

Since there isn't much to talk about right now, let me drop this little bomb of a theory:

We tear up Clifford and Andreoff for not doing anything to Tkachuk: especially in the last Calgary game at Staples when they were already eliminated from the playoffs (Clifford was scratched). Thing is both of these guys have a long history of sticking up for teammates and fighting, at least at every other level than the NHL for AA. So why didn't they do it here? Didn't do it in the game when the elbow took place and didn't do it any other time with multiple chances. So why?

Is it because Doughty is a big ***** that runs his mouth and talks a big game but never backs it up and other grown men aren't in a rush to come to his aide?
Click to expand...

I disagree with our superstars having to stick up for themselves. And the btw, if your are going to stick for yourself, you better be ready to drop the gloves and fight. Look at Carter, decided to fight Kesler and got knocked down. But his play after that game was not the same. Ended up scoring on 11 points in 21 games. When before he had 55 points in 61 games.

And agitators want the better players to react to them. That is their job. And if they can take you off the ice with them, that is a bigger plus.

Doughty loves LA and i don't think its because the Players don't have his back. When he won the Norris, all he talked about were his teammates. I would look at Sutter as the Source of why players were not sticking up for each other.
 
https://www.nhl.com/news/2017-18-kings-numbers-stats-analysis/c-290620378?tid=290471364
There arguably isn't a player who is relied upon by their team more than Kings defenseman Drew Doughty.

In the past three seasons, Doughty leads the NHL with 6,900:58 of ice time. Broken down by manpower situation, Doughty ranks second with 5,429:00 at even strength, seventh with 669:02 shorthanded, and 16th with 802:56 on the power play.

It's not just the volume of minutes Doughty plays, but the difficulty of those minutes. He takes on top opponents while guiding a secondary player as his defense partner, like Brayden McNabb in 2015-16 and rookie Derek Forbort last season. Despite this tough assignment, the Kings are at their best with Doughty on the ice, with a League-leading SAT of plus-1,269 at 5-on-5 the past three seasons.
Click to expand...

NHL.com also provided a top 5 list of Kings prospects:
https://www.nhl.com/news/los-angeles-kings-prospect-watch/c-290651998?tid=290471364

As most of us have been anticipating, they predict that LaDue, Brodzinski and Kempe will be with the team this season. They'd have to take some steps backwards in order for them not to make the lineup out of camp.
 
kingsofLA said:
I disagree with our superstars having to stick up for themselves. And the btw, if your are going to stick for yourself, you better be ready to drop the gloves and fight. Look at Carter, decided to fight Kesler and got knocked down. But his play after that game was not the same. Ended up scoring on 11 points in 21 games. When before he had 55 points in 61 games.

And agitators want the better players to react to them. That is their job. And if they can take you off the ice with them, that is a bigger plus.

Doughty loves LA and i don't think its because the Players don't have his back. When he won the Norris, all he talked about were his teammates. I would look at Sutter as the Source of why players were not sticking up for each other.
Click to expand...

Of course it isn't. He loves LA because he lives in semi-anonymity in one of the best spots in the world while making millions of dollars. We will also see how much he loves it when negotiations start on his extension. Apparently there is a need for more leadership and grit at the moment.

I've also yet to see an NHL player accept a Norris and just talk about themselves.

Sticking up for yourself doesn't necessarily mean dropping your gloves and fighting, but it definitely means you don't have a little punk rookie try to take your head off at center ice--after already being suspended for elbowing you in the mouth--and not even sneeze in his direction. Carter wound up around his usual averages...the Carter from the first half of the season isn't the real Carter so I'm not going to say he stopped being able to score because he lost a fight.

It's true that Sutter could have had the shackles on guys which led to the muted response but I also don't recall Sutter ever chastising someone for sticking up for a teammate.

I have no evidence to back up that guys don't like him and I'm not even saying it is the case; however, I do know it would **** me off during and after a **** sandwich of a season to have to:

-Stick up for a grown man who is 20 pounds bigger than me and runs his mouth all the time while making tons of money while wearing an "A" on his sweater
-The guy that is terrorizing him is a small 19 year old
-Then the guy who won't stick up for himself while wearing an "A" says there needs to be more grit and leadership on the team.
 
As someone who's a big Doughty fan, he's definitely a big ***** who talks the talk, and never walks the walk. Through time the most praised leaders were the one who lead by example and fought along side their soldiers. I hate that Doughty never fights, and neither does Kopitar. I know it's a weird complaint, but God damn, do something instead of running your mouth. Most of the greats had a bit of a wild side.
 
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