Prospect Info: 2017 NHL Draft / Pick #7 - Lias Andersson (C)

[will1066]

The on-ice thuggery arguments make no sense. No one had been commenting about Lias' on-ice play.

Nevertheless, you don't need to be a thug on the ice to show that you have fire and passion.

As for the Graves example, most hockey players have done something borderline or outright regrettable on the ice whether it was intended or not. Graves is one of the classiest hockey players off the ice. As are some outright goons of the past.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Lias is awesome.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

“You want your players to compete, to be competitive, to not like to lose. So, all that part I like about it,” Vigneault said before his Rangers beat the Coyotes, 2-1 in a shootout, on Saturday night at Gila River Arena. “[But] there’s behavior and conduct. But he’s a young man, and he wants to win. So that’s real positive.”

https://nypost.com/2018/01/07/what-rangers-prospects-medal-toss-proved-to-alain-vigneault/

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I have problem with what he did.

 

[Siddi]

It's not his teammates I'm thinking about. They wouldn't initiate the congratulatory handshakes after getting their silver medals like the Canadians had the class to do for the Americans the previous year. I'm sure their emotional roller coaster was just as steep in that moment. The Swedes could have cared less as Dahlin's post interview displayed. Many of them are that one small step away from the professional stage. It's the message sent to thousands of younger hockey players that have I have a harder time with.

Whats wrong with his message? 1st place is all that matters when you compete. Kids dont watch sports and dream about the loser medal.

I haven't seen anyone credible from the hockey world criticize Lias for what he did, he is infact being congratulated and getting tons of respect from swedish media yet here on HFNYR w have to endure soapbox preachers.

 

[Kocur Dill]

I could have sworn If you lose the Gold Medal game you got the Bronze. The secondary game was Silver or nothing.

Am I imagining that or it that for a different competition?

The way it is currently set up has the Silver as a participation trophy and the Bronze as an achievement. Which seems bass akwards to me. It gives the Silver less meaning than the Bronze. You "earn" a lesser medal in the Bronze for winning, but are "awarded" the greater medal in the Silver for losing.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

To start---I have no problem with what Lias did the other night. Might as well get that out of the way.

How Messier and Graves played in their era wasn't all that unusual. It was a lot meaner and rougher back then than it is now. Messier was IMO a dirty player. Him and about 100 others playing around that same time. Mario by the way was too and yeah he got his wrist broken from a slash by Graves but what was conveniently overlooked then in the hoopla and not remembered today (apparently) is that Mario would take all the padding out of his gloves to have greater flexibility. That slash Graves gave him--watching games back then you'd see that same slash 30-40 times a night. It wasn't unusual--it just caught him right but Mario was at least somewhat culpable for the injury (at least in my eyes) in respect to his neglect of his own safety---kind of like Gretzky back in that same day with that ****ing kids version of a Jofa helmet. If you **** around with your equipment don't be surprised when you get hurt. And with Mario---people complain about Crosby whining, whining and whining but he learned it from the king of crybabies (I'm speaking once again of Mario) and IMO Crosby doesn't even come very close to being the crybaby that Mario was.

But this is what I mean. Saying "that's how everyone played" is not an excuse. This wasn't 200 years ago when people weren't as developed and therefore you can't compare our morals today to our morals then. The fact that that style of play was glorified then and is still today by the same people that cry about class when someone does something inconsequential is hypocritical.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

It's not his teammates I'm thinking about. They wouldn't initiate the congratulatory handshakes after getting their silver medals like the Canadians had the class to do for the Americans the previous year. I'm sure their emotional roller coaster was just as steep in that moment. The Swedes could have cared less as Dahlin's post interview displayed. Many of them are that one small step away from the professional stage. It's the message sent to thousands of younger hockey players that have I have a harder time with.

 

[Tawnos]

But this is what I mean. Saying "that's how everyone played" is not an excuse. This wasn't 200 years ago when people weren't as developed and therefore you can't compare our morals today to our morals then. The fact that that style of play was glorified then and is still today by the same people that cry about class when someone does something inconsequential is hypocritical.

No it isn’t, because you’re talking about two entirely different things. One is respect for your opponents and teammates and the other is respect for the game, its traditions and your hosts. What Andersson did was definitely disrespectful to the latter. If your host gives you something you don’t want, whether earned or not, you don’t throw it away until you’re out of their sight.

As I’ve said before, I have no problem with disrespect in the right context. I have no problem with Andersson disrespecting the game and its traditions to send a message to Swedish hockey that silver is unacceptable. The problem is that even that message is getting drowned out by the reaction his actions have created. It’s hard to have a potent message clearly received when you make a spectacle of things.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

The on-ice thuggery arguments make no sense. No one had been commenting about Lias' on-ice play.

Nevertheless, you don't need to be a thug on the ice to show that you have fire and passion.

As for the Graves example, most hockey players have done something borderline or outright regrettable on the ice whether it was intended or not. Graves is one of the classiest hockey players off the ice. As are some outright goons of the past.

That's exactly the point. People argued over something inconsequential while for decades the same people glorified on ice thuggery. If you can't grasp the point I'm making I don't know what to tell you.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

No it isn’t, because you’re talking about two entirely different things. One is respect for your opponents and teammates and the other is respect for the game, its traditions and your hosts. What Andersson did was definitely disrespectful to the latter. If your host gives you something you don’t want, whether earned or not, you don’t throw it away until you’re out of their sight.

As I’ve said before, I have no problem with disrespect in the right context. I have no problem with Andersson disrespecting the game and its traditions to send a message to Swedish hockey that silver is unacceptable. The problem is that even that message is getting drowned out by the reaction his actions have created. It’s hard to have a potent message clearly received when you make a spectacle of things.

They're not different things when the same people actively rooting for Scott Stevens (thanks again @Machinehead) ending Eric Lindros's career because he's a tough player that just wanted to win the cup and Lindros should really learn to keep his head up, are the same people yelling how unclassy Lias Andersson was for once again for doing something completely inconsequential. Who did Lias hurt? And explain to me the contradiction of rooting for players to actively hurt other players and lauding them three ways to Sunday and then flipping out about "respect" when a player does something that doesn't hurt anyone. You can't just put them in different buckets because they both have to do with respect. Ending players' careers with dirty play is far more disrespectful than giving YOUR silver medal to a fan. Both these things are related, just because they're not 100% identical doesn't mean that you can separate them in order to mitigate your cognitive dissonance.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Also Lias and his teammates made his hosts lots of money this tournament. It's not like someone let a stranger (or even a friend) into his house. You're making it sound like these guys were hosts out of the goodness of their hearts. He was there because he gave them a chance to make money. He wasn't gifted that medal, he earned it by playing winning hockey that earned these people a ton of money.

 

[eco's bones]

But this is what I mean. Saying "that's how everyone played" is not an excuse. This wasn't 200 years ago when people weren't as developed and therefore you can't compare our morals today to our morals then. The fact that that style of play was glorified then and is still today by the same people that cry about class when someone does something inconsequential is hypocritical.

The game has gradually changed to a much more non-contact form of the game than what it was. There are no morals f***ing involved apart from the morals of the moment AFAIC. If we want to make Messier out into a monster that's fine---keep in mind Bobby Clarke, Gordie Howe, Maurice Richard, Ted Lindsay, Doug Harvey and Eddie Shore--the entire legacy of the game that helped lead us to today in 2018. Messier came from a long tradition of players who played on the edge and quite often carved each other up and it wasn't just Rangers players over the years--the fact we've been the receivers generally more often than the opposite--just another reason why we have less Cups.

Another fact is the NHL as an institution might set rules and conduct but it's also walking away from any responsibility for its players who in the past lived under other rules of conduct. The NHL walks away because it and it's owners are really only interested in one thing and this is-----$.

 

[McD37]

Please don't stand that close to the mirror

He himself said he is...

 

[will1066]

Snowblind, I'm not understanding the notion of "the same people" as you have repeatedly stated. Please don't lump me into that group of people. I have said on-ice antics have nothing to do with what he did which was post game.

 

[Tawnos]

They're not different things when the same people actively rooting for Scott Stevens (thanks again @Machinehead) ending Eric Lindros's career because he's a tough player that just wanted to win the cup and Lindros should really learn to keep his head up, are the same people yelling how unclassy Lias Andersson was for once again for doing something completely inconsequential. Who did Lias hurt? And explain to me the contradiction of rooting for players to actively hurt other players and lauding them three ways to Sunday and then flipping out about "respect" when a player does something that doesn't hurt anyone. You can't just put them in different buckets because they both have to do with respect. Ending players' careers with dirty play is far more disrespectful than giving YOUR silver medal to a fan. Both these things are related, just because they're not 100% identical doesn't mean that you can separate them in order to mitigate your cognitive dissonance.

You seem to think that the disrespect came from giving the medal away. It didn’t. It came from the manner in which he did it.

The ideas ARE mutually exclusive, since they have to do with different things. One is about how you interact with the people you are competing with and the other has to do with how you interact with the world outside of that competition.

To rephrase your words in another way: you can’t just put them in the same bucket because they both have to do with respect. Respect in shown in different ways in different situations. It’s not a universal thing that you do the same way all the time.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

The game has gradually changed to a much more non-contact form of the game than what it was. There are no morals ****ing involved apart from the morals of the moment AFAIC. If we want to make Messier out into a monster that's fine---keep in mind Bobby Clarke, Gordie Howe, Maurice Richard, Ted Lindsay, Doug Harvey and Eddie Shore--the entire legacy of the game that helped lead us to today in 2018. Messier came from a long tradition of players who played on the edge and quite often carved each other up and it wasn't just Rangers players over the years--the fact we've been the receivers generally more often than the opposite--just another reason why we have less Cups.

Another fact is the NHL as an institution might set rules and conduct but it's also walking away from any responsibility for its players who in the past lived under other rules of conduct. The NHL walks away because it and it's owners are really only interested in one thing and this is-----$.

This isn't about Messier. This is about hockey fans glorifying dirty plays and dirty players. You bringing up other players that did it back in the day inadvertently strengthens my point. For decades and to this day those 70s, 80s, and 90s, players and the style of hockey played back then has been glorified by the same fans that cry CLASSLESS every time something completely inconsequential happens because it's disrespectful to the invisible force called "the game" or "the tournament". Meanwhile actual human beings had their health ruined because of the style of play these people glorify.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

You seem to think that the disrespect came from giving the medal away. It didn’t. It came from the manner in which he did it.

The ideas ARE mutually exclusive, since they have to do with different things. One is about how you interact with the people you are competing with and the other has to do with how you interact with the world outside of that competition.

To rephrase your words in another way: you can’t just put them in the same bucket because they both have to do with respect. Respect in shown in different ways in different situations. It’s not a universal thing that you do the same way all the time.

Yes you can put them in the same bucket because if you don't think that hitting players with blindside elbows or hits to the head is disrespectful, but think something completely inconsequential to anyone IS disrespectful and you go on rants about it (general you here), you're a hypocrite. And I guess they are different aspects of respect. One is respect for your fellow man's well being. The other is a respect for a mythical entity with no feelings, emotions, or ability to feel pain, called "the game". One legitimately matters and the other is an excuse for people to get on their high horse.

 

[Irishguy42]

We done talking about Messier? Not entirely relevant here.

What has Swedish media said about the toss? Coaching staff/teammates?

 

[Tawnos]

Yes you can put them in the same bucket because if you don't think that hitting players with blindside elbows or hits to the head is disrespectful, but think something completely inconsequential to anyone IS disrespectful and you go on rants about it (general you here), you're a hypocrite. And I guess they are different aspects of respect. One is respect for your fellow man's well being. The other is a respect for a mythical entity with no feelings, emotions, or ability to feel pain, called "the game". One legitimately matters and the other is an excuse for people to get on their high horse.

Both legitimately matter.

Look, playing dirty is disrespectful to your opponents as people. But like i said earlier, disrespect is not universally a bad thing. In the context of the game at the time you’re referring to, not showing your opponents physical respect was a big part of accomplishing your goals. It was a different time and guess what? That DOES excuse the behavior of the people who were brought up in it. Applying modern standards of morality to a past with different standards of morality doesn’t do anyone any good. I don’t think anyone would claim that the way Messier played wasn’t disrespectful to his opponents well-being. The question is more whether or not such a disrespect can really be considered reprehensible.

 

[Trxjw]

There is nothing to support that other than your own opinion, it is unfounded to the point that his teammates went so far as to say the medal had "zero value." It contradicts your view.

Again, do you understand the difference between me feeling it was disrespectful to his teammates, and me claiming that his teammates felt disrespected? Because I never once did the former, yet you keep implying that I did.

 

[Edge]

I'm not thrilled with his decision. I would assume it's going to be addressed internally, if it hasn't already been addressed.

I also think it's being blown a bit out of proportion.

The events show what we've been talking about when it comes to his fire and desire to win.

Those traits, channeled properly, could be a much needed kick in the ass for more than few guys on this squad.

 

[will1066]

Also Lias and his teammates made his hosts lots of money this tournament. It's not like someone let a stranger (or even a friend) into his house. You're making it sound like these guys were hosts out of the goodness of their hearts. He was there because he gave them a chance to make money. He wasn't gifted that medal, he earned it by playing winning hockey that earned these people a ton of money.

I feel like some comments about this being a business and being about work and earning something are fallacies. I'm of like mind with Tawnos about disrespecting the host and sporting tradition. The notion that this tournament was a cold-hard business and someone's conduct had no consequences is something I cannot grasp. One can still go to a business meeting, get down to doing business, and yet still be gracious toward the host when one is about to leave the premises.

What's the word I'm looking for? Professional etiquette.

 

[Graves94]

LOL, I can't understand all these people criticizing an 18 year old, for not following the norm after accepting a loser medal, but everyone is ok when players of conference winning teams don't touch the conference trophy, when presented by Bill Daly (Assistant Commissioner of the league they play in)!
But that's ok, because it has become the norm not to touch it, because it's superstitious...lol! Talk about disrespecting someone, poor guy (Daly) looks like a tool during the presentation...

 

[Nopuckluck]

This might get deleted but I won't be surprised. Love what the kid did. Shows he hates losing. Wish some of our current guys felt the same. As far as hockey today compared to the game I grew up with. No fell in love with....that's laughable.

Hockey today is a metaphor for our society. Just look at how soft and sensitive everyone has become. I didn't get my way do I'm going to protest.