2017 Draft discussion- Sabres pick 8th. Part 2

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

Drafting wingers for me is roughly equivalent to starting Darien hatcher post lockout.

 

[sabrebuild]

Yea, what would 5'10" Phil Housley have to teach him

To be fair 5'10" in housley's era was pretty respectable compared to a 5'9" today.

 

[Jame]

To be fair 5'10" in housley's era was pretty respectable compared to a 5'9" today.

Fair.

Question. Are there elite/high end offensive defensemen that are failing to make it in the NHL because of their size?

I feel like it's an assumption we make... that it's an impediment to success.

Jared Spurgeon and Torrey Krug are at the top of their game

Enstrom, Streit and Campbell have had great careers

Vatanen, Ellis, Barrie

gostisbehere, Murphy

 

[Der Jaeger]

Last year's draft was a lesson in BPA v need at the top of the draft. Murray said Nylander was BPA on his board at the time of the pick. The need was defense, and Sergachev, Chychrun, and McAvoy were still on the board. Murray went BPA.

We continue to debate the Lehner trade, the Kane/Bogosian trade, drafting Reinhart, etc. As we should. But imagine one simple move at last year's draft, and how it could change the team's outlook.

Imagine Murray took Sergachev or McAvoy, both offensive-minded puck movers. Both look ready to contribute next season.

McCabe - Ristolainen
Kane trade - Bogosian
Antipin - Sergachev/McAvoy.

With this as the future

McCabe - Ristolainen
Guhle - Sergachev/McAvoy.

That second group could be what Nashville has in time.

BPA isn't always the right way. And not that Nylander is a bad prospect or won't develop. But one move changes the organization pretty dramatically.

Which is why GMJB shouldn't be discouraged from taking a defenseman at 8 if the rankings on his board are close.

 

[Jame]

Last year's draft was a lesson in BPA v need at the top of the draft. Murray said Nylander was BPA on his board at the time of the pick. The need was defense, and Sergachev, Chychrun, and McAvoy were still on the board. Murray went BPA.

We continue to debate the Lehner trade, the Kane/Bogosian trade, drafting Reinhart, etc. As we should. But imagine one simple move at last year's draft, and how it could change the team's outlook.

Imagine Murray took Sergachev or McAvoy, both offensive-minded puck movers. Both look ready to contribute next season.

McCabe - Ristolainen
Kane trade - Bogosian
Antipin - Sergachev/McAvoy.

With this as the future

McCabe - Ristolainen
Guhle - Sergachev/McAvoy.

That second group could be what Nashville has in time.

BPA isn't always the right way. And not that Nylander is a bad prospect or won't develop. But one move changes the organization pretty dramatically.

Which is why GMJB shouldn't be discouraged from taking a defenseman at 8 if the rankings on his board are close.

Far and away the biggest roster building mistake that Murray made...

 

[Samsonite23]

Last year's draft was a lesson in BPA v need at the top of the draft. Murray said Nylander was BPA on his board at the time of the pick. The need was defense, and Sergachev, Chychrun, and McAvoy were still on the board. Murray went BPA.

We continue to debate the Lehner trade, the Kane/Bogosian trade, drafting Reinhart, etc. As we should. But imagine one simple move at last year's draft, and how it could change the team's outlook.

Imagine Murray took Sergachev or McAvoy, both offensive-minded puck movers. Both look ready to contribute next season.

McCabe - Ristolainen
Kane trade - Bogosian
Antipin - Sergachev/McAvoy.

With this as the future

McCabe - Ristolainen
Guhle - Sergachev/McAvoy.

That second group could be what Nashville has in time.

BPA isn't always the right way. And not that Nylander is a bad prospect or won't develop. But one move changes the organization pretty dramatically.

Which is why GMJB shouldn't be discouraged from taking a defenseman at 8 if the rankings on his board are close.

I've been trying to get over that choice all year. Think I just relapsed.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I've been trying to get over that choice all year. Think I just relapsed.

You're welcome.

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

Far and away the biggest roster building mistake that Murray made...

For once we agree. Wish we could convince MTL to trade for Serg with Nylander as center piece lol

 

[Jame]

I've been trying to get over that choice all year. Think I just relapsed.

Just wait until they are regular contributors... that relapse episode is going to be painful

 

[BananaSquad]

What if GMJB takes Oettinger?

 

[Butt Ox]

Would round out to be the same time that Nylander should be dropping bombs all over pp2, eh. As long as we're crystal ball gazing and all that.

 

[Jim Bob]

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/news/bakers-top-31-11-eeli-tolvanen/c-289837828

Baker's Top 31: #11 Eeli Tolvanen

He is intriguing as a sniper to go with Eichel or Reinhart.

I've gone with him in a few sims where I traded back because of the D that went top 7 or a trade up back into the late 1st.

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/news/bakers-top-31-10-martin-necas/c-289838296

Baker's Top 31: #10 Martin Necas

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/news/bakers-top-31-9-owen-tippett/c-289838698

Baker's Top 31: #9 Owen Tippett

 

[Chainshot]

What if GMJB takes Oettinger?

In the second round?

 

[Jim Bob]

In the second round?

He is a guy that I have taken quite a few times when running the draft sim.

But, it's always late 1st to 2nd round.

 

[kenfury]

Last year's draft was a lesson in BPA v need at the top of the draft. Murray said Nylander was BPA on his board at the time of the pick. The need was defense, and Sergachev, Chychrun, and McAvoy were still on the board. Murray went BPA.

We continue to debate the Lehner trade, the Kane/Bogosian trade, drafting Reinhart, etc. As we should. But imagine one simple move at last year's draft, and how it could change the team's outlook.

Imagine Murray took Sergachev or McAvoy, both offensive-minded puck movers. Both look ready to contribute next season.

McCabe - Ristolainen
Kane trade - Bogosian
Antipin - Sergachev/McAvoy.

With this as the future

McCabe - Ristolainen
Guhle - Sergachev/McAvoy.

That second group could be what Nashville has in time.

BPA isn't always the right way. And not that Nylander is a bad prospect or won't develop. But one move changes the organization pretty dramatically.

Which is why GMJB shouldn't be discouraged from taking a defenseman at 8 if the rankings on his board are close.

Thanks for giving me flashbacks of my ever increasing rage last year as I saw Sergachev, Bean, McAvoy and finally Chychrun go and the Sabres not have a plan to move up and grab a D. One of the few moves I strongly disagreed with TM on.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Thanks for giving me flashbacks of my ever increasing rage last year as I saw Sergachev, Bean, McAvoy and finally Chychrun go and the Sabres not have a plan to move up and grab a D. One of the few moves I strongly disagreed with TM on.

Same here. This was the most angry I ever got at Murray... Not even close. Actually the point I started to lose faith that he knew how to build a winning roster.

Never mind moving up to select those players... He should have used 8 on bringing Fowler in as widely speculated.. Or just use that pick on one of these guys.

Unless it is a cavernous gap, BPA is such a terrible strategy IMO... Or unless you are lucky enough to be stacked in all the important positions /roles.

Nothing against Nylander but I will always maintain this was a terrible pick no matter how he turns out. To ignore such a huge organisational need is unforgivable.

The wound is opening again!

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Same here. This was the most angry I ever got at Murray... Not even close. Actually the point I started to lose faith that he knew how to build a winning roster.

I started questioning Murray when the rumors were going around that he was offering Stamkos $10.5 AAv when we were already brimming with centers. And then he passed up the opportunity to draft defense when he had the chance at some very good options at #8 last year.

Overall I still approve of Murray, but I always worried that he minimized the importance of a great defense.

 

[dotcommunism]

Stay on topic, please. This isn't a grade Tim Murray's GM performance thread.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

I started questioning Murray when the rumors were going around that he was offering Stamkos $10.5 AAv when we were already brimming with centers. And then he passed up the opportunity to draft defense when he had the chance at some very good options at #8 last year.

Overall I still approve of Murray, but I always worried that he minimized the importance of a great defense.

Agreed but in his defence I'm only going to criticise moves he actually made & not ones he may have wanted to make given the chance.

I was still very relieved when stamkos resigned in Tbay though!

On topic - hope the pick is used to acquire a d upgrade. Preferably a trade for someone seasoned but if we keep the pick it had better be a blue liner. Or else I might explode.

 

[brian_griffin]

I think the answer is in his lack of a dynamic level to his skating/puck rush. That's obviously not to say he isn't a greaT skater... he is, especially on his edges, his agility. I just think he lacks that top top end dynamic creator element the other two have.

The flip side is his total package game make him a super safe pick / high floor prospect.

I've had Jusso in my 2nd tier / top 8 all along.

I think the defensive depth in the top of the 1st is massively underrated, coinciding with numerous overrated forwards in comparison.

Taking a forward at 8 is silly talk.

I think because he has a nice rounded skillset but doesn't seem to have any elite qualities. I'm a fan of his game and wouldn't be upset if he was picked at 8

If it's a falling forward I wish it was Glass but I'd be more than happy with Mittlestadt as well. Though I can't imagine a forward we won't see for several years appeals to most here.

I don't trust Liljegren. When hockey IQ is questioned in a defenseman I don't fancy using such a high pick on them. It's pretty much the recipe for the ones that don't make it.

Honestly I'd rather they reach all the way down for Brannstrom over Liljegren.

@you three above, refresh my memory: Was it Liljegren, Valimaki, or someone else, whom one or more of you agreed could be a comparable to Teppo Numminen?

Who is Jeff Crisp?

He's the head amateur scout

And son of former NHL player and coach Terry Crisp, who himself won Stanley Cups in both roles.

Preds D construction and play style allowed 5-10/175 Ryan Ellis to play well. Subban is stout for his height. Ekholm is taller. Josi is average. Weber and Irwin are average.

If GMJB picked a smaller defenseman, that defenseman could slot in the same way. Ristolainen and Bogosian are horses who can skate well. McCabe is average height but stout for his height.

Organizationally, Guhle isn't small, and from pictures, he's getting bigger. Borgen is average. Stephens is average. Fitzgerald is smaller.

Assuming that Kane nets an average to above-average sized defender, the overall D could add a smaller player. Slotting in Makar, Heiskanen, or Brannstrom isn't going to be an issue. Especially if Housley is the head coach.

Zhitnik was 5'10" but was built like a fire hydrant. Dan Boyle. We could go on...

 

[Jim Bob]

I am mildly addicted to the DraftWired sim.

Here is an interesting one with discernment on:

1-8 Cale Makar RD Brooks
1-26 Eeli Tolvanen RW Sioux City [Trade 26 from CHI for 37, 161, 192]
2-43 Jake Oettinger G Team USA [Trade 43 from WPG for 55, 99]
3-74 Filip Westerlund RD Frolunda [Trade 74, 209 from WPG for 68]
3-89 Jake Leschyshyn LW Regina

 

[Husko]

Numinen definitely seems like a more apt comparison for Valimaki than Liljigren

 

[1972]

I don't think this is that hard of a decision.

If Heiskanen or Makar are available you take one of them. If both are taken and Vilardi or Glass are still available you take one of them, if all four of those guys are gone you take Liljegren.

 

[Reddawg]

I don't think this is that hard of a decision.

If Heiskanen or Makar are available you take one of them. If both are taken and Vilardi or Glass are still available you take one of them, if all four of those guys are gone you take Liljegren.

That's basically the way I feel. No matter what we're going to get a quality piece in the 8 spot. Liljegren or Valimaki if the other four are already gone.

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

I don't think this is that hard of a decision.

If Heiskanen or Makar are available you take one of them. If both are taken and Vilardi or Glass are still available you take one of them, if all four of those guys are gone you take Liljegren.

I'd rather Valimaki.