Speculation: 2017-18 Roster Discussion - Part 2

[Rschmitz]

I have zero issues with how the prospects are being brought along or how Yzerman is handling our window. He's positioned himself nicely this off season to keep the core of the team together and add pieces to it.

Without sacrifice there can be no victory.
-Transformers

 

[The Macho King]

I'm not saying we should be moving every insurance player in the organization. But I mean, is it a bigger concern that Stamkos and Johnson might get hurt, or that Slater Koekkoek might be our second pairing D with next to no NHL experience? The alternative: a Brayden Coburn who appears to be regressing. Stamkos and Johnson MIGHT get hurt (okay, Johnson probably will), but the other problem is a sure thing, and we've had top-4 problems for a long, long time.

We didn't get into this position overnight, so I'm not talking about changing it all in one big swoop. It's more like, I think we could achieve a lot more organizational balance if we were to deal some players who we're very certain will not reach their full potential in TB, but have a shot to do so elsewhere.

I just don't see who we missed out on that could be a difference maker. Hamonic - good player, but how good over replacement? He's going to displace one of Dotchin or Stralman - but Dotchin outproduced him last season and I don't think anyone would say he's better than Stralman, and he's injury-prone on top of it (he's played a full season once - the lockout season).

I want Yzerman to make the *right* move, but some of that is just moves to make moves. If the right guy comes available at the right price, I trust Yzerman to pull the trigger.

 

[Todd1a]

The time is now to go all in on cups, Yzerman keeps building for the future when he should be getting pieces to win now i.e CHI and PIT style

I agree 100 percent the way to be the Hawks and penguins is to become them and it's our time to go for it!

 

[Todd1a]

Yzerman sold at the deadline because at that time it looked like our team was going to be a lottery team. If he would have known what happened afterwards I don't think he would have traded Boyle. Getting rid of Filppula was a no brainer though.

I was talking about 2012 when he said about trading for lindback

 

[Todd1a]

Well it's tough to do when you have a team that goes far into the playoffs for two years. As we know Coop likes his players to be defensively responsible. How many players are doing this at 20? Point was a rare case where the offense is matched with the defense responsibility. I know we like to get on Coops case for liking players like this but these are the players that wins games. If our teams would only stay healthy and have a little more depth scoring I think we have a cup by now.

But what happened after we brought tons of crunch players up we won went like 20-5!!! Probably stunned yzerman.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I'm not saying we should be moving every insurance player in the organization. But I mean, is it a bigger concern that Stamkos and Johnson might get hurt, or that Slater Koekkoek might be our second pairing D with next to no NHL experience? The alternative: a Brayden Coburn who appears to be regressing. Stamkos and Johnson MIGHT get hurt (okay, Johnson probably will), but the other problem is a sure thing, and we've had top-4 problems for a long, long time.

We didn't get into this position overnight, so I'm not talking about changing it all in one big swoop. It's more like, I think we could achieve a lot more organizational balance if we were to deal some players who we're very certain will not reach their full potential in TB, but have a shot to do so elsewhere.

I'm all for making a move, but for who? Not a whole lot out there.

 

[DFC]

I just don't see who we missed out on that could be a difference maker. Hamonic - good player, but how good over replacement? He's going to displace one of Dotchin or Stralman - but Dotchin outproduced him last season and I don't think anyone would say he's better than Stralman, and he's injury-prone on top of it (he's played a full season once - the lockout season).

I want Yzerman to make the *right* move, but some of that is just moves to make moves. If the right guy comes available at the right price, I trust Yzerman to pull the trigger.

I'm not really talking specifically about this off-season, but more about what seems like the general philosophy of the team right now. When was the last time we traded a prospect to land an NHL player? I honestly can't remember. Benoit Pouliot? I guess maybe Conacher for Bishop, if you make the case that Conacher was still a prospect at the time.

Meanwhile, it doesn't seem like we're digging all that deep into the prospect pool either. And we're starting to see players age out of their window of value, so to speak.

 

[The Macho King]

I'm not really talking specifically about this off-season, but more about what seems like the general philosophy of the team right now. When was the last time we traded a prospect to land an NHL player? I honestly can't remember. Benoit Pouliot?

Meanwhile, it doesn't seem like we're digging all that deep into the prospect pool either. And we're starting to see players age out of their window of value, so to speak.

What player has been available for trade that we missed out on that would have seriously improved our team? Hjalmarsson is the closest I can think of, but Arizona paid a big price to get him, so even if we were in the bidding, would we have paid the price? And that's a guy on the wrong side of thirty, so there's a risk that he is slowing down.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

What player has been available for trade that we missed out on that would have seriously improved our team? Hjalmarsson is the closest I can think of, but Arizona paid a big price to get him, so even if we were in the bidding, would we have paid the price? And that's a guy on the wrong side of thirty, so there's a risk that he is slowing down.

Arizona didn't give up any of their top talent, so no, they did not pay a big price.

And it's impossible to know who is available because we traded (What could wind up being the best trade chip sans Panarin) for an 18 yr old. Im lookimg at that as a big problem concidering we are hearing teams like Minn, Car, and Ana are looking to trade defenders. All these teams have defenders who can impact a team now as opposed to years from now.

 

[DFC]

What player has been available for trade that we missed out on that would have seriously improved our team? Hjalmarsson is the closest I can think of, but Arizona paid a big price to get him, so even if we were in the bidding, would we have paid the price? And that's a guy on the wrong side of thirty, so there's a risk that he is slowing down.

That's this off-season. I'm really not saying we should have pulled the trigger on anything this off-season. I was lukewarm on Hamonic, but not sad that we didn't land him.

It's more that, it's been four years since we've dealt futures for an NHL player. Again, I'm not saying we should be doing it all the time or anything. I'm the guy who's always arguing that teams should NEVER go all in. But I just don't think it should be a team philosophy that we never trade futures either. Seems like we've gone to the other extreme. It could obviously just be a coincidence that we never trade prospects for NHLers, but it's been a long, long time.

 

[Todd1a]

I'm not really talking specifically about this off-season, but more about what seems like the general philosophy of the team right now. When was the last time we traded a prospect to land an NHL player? I honestly can't remember. Benoit Pouliot? I guess maybe Conacher for Bishop, if you make the case that Conacher was still a prospect at the time.

Meanwhile, it doesn't seem like we're digging all that deep into the prospect pool either. And we're starting to see players age out of their window of value, so to speak.

It's frustrating to say the least I don't like our philosophy it's like let's keep rebuilding so we don't have to rebuild massively one day ? Instead of let's finish our rebuild into a cup contender. I don't feel like we even try to make our selves a serious cup contender sometimes? Our goal right now should be to surround our core guys with the best possible players to complete for the cup for the next 3 years! Because like it or not hedman and stamkos are not super young anymore. I think yzerman over values some of his prospects a lot. When do we get to step 2 ? I'm not totally trashing yzerman since 2010 yzerman has been awesome rebuilding this team! But it seems like we are ready for the final step now and for what ever reason he just won't go there ?

 

[The Macho King]

Arizona didn't give up any of their top talent, so no, they did not pay a big price.

And it's impossible to know who is available because we traded (What could wind up being the best trade chip sans Panarin) for an 18 yr old. Im lookimg at that as a big problem concidering we are hearing teams like Minn, Car, and Ana are looking to trade defenders. All these teams have defenders who can impact a team now as opposed to years from now.

And what did Panarin return? A 53 point winger.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

Yzerman made two colossal errors last year:

1) keeping the exact same squad while doing NOTHING to improve it

2) never made a decision on Bishop. Instead decided to do some wishy washy, split time thing with Vasi that was crap for both of them. Then he trades Bish at TDL for scraps.

Yes, the Stamkos injury was devastating. But you saw a whole team regress other than Hedman and Kuch. No new help anywhere to be seen.

Then comes the absolute shock to the organization that the 2015 Stanley Cup Finalist, 2016 ECF game 7 loser, and 16-17 Stanley Cup favorite DIDN'T EVEN MAKE THE DAMN PLAYOFFS!

So then comes a letter to the fans - FROM THE FREAKING OWNER, saying that what happens is unacceptable and they have identified their core and WILL fix it.

First thing see do in the off-season - TRADE JONATHAN FREAKING DROUIN for a PROSPECT (without even negotiating with him according to his agent). Thus actually setting us back for 17-18 Instead of improving.

So the expansion/regular drafts have come and gone and we are sitting here with a team that hasn't improved one lick for next year.

Now FA is a week away and the pool is super thin and the prices are high. On top of that, other teams in the East are getting better.

^ THAT is why this is a scary situation to be in going into 2017-2018. Not saying Yzerman won't make something happen, but if you are denying that we are in a tough situation with what appears to be slim options you are blind.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

And what did Panarin return? A 53 point winger.

Bro, that was a B.S. trade around a future cap dump. Not the same situation at all.

 

[DFC]

Yzerman made two colossal errors last year:

1) keeping the exact same squad while doing NOTHING to improve it

2) never made a decision on Bishop. Instead decided to do some wishy washy, split time thing with Vasi that was crap for both of them. Then he trades Bish at TDL for scraps.

Yes, the Stamkos injury was devastating. But you saw a whole team regress other than Hedman and Kuch. No new help anywhere to be seen.

Then comes the absolute shock to the organization that the 2015 Stanley Cup Finalist, 2016 ECF game 7 loser, and 16-17 Stanley Cup favorite DIDN'T EVEN MAKE THE DAMN PLAYOFFS!

So then comes a letter to the fans - FROM THE FREAKING OWNER, saying that what happens is unacceptable and they have identified their core and WILL fix it.

First thing see do in the off-season - TRADE JONATHAN FREAKING DROUIN for a PROSPECT (without even negotiating with him according to his agent). Thus actually setting us back for 17-18 Instead of improving.

So the expansion/regular drafts have come and gone and we are sitting here with a team that hasn't improved one lick for next year.

Now FA is a week away and the pool is super thin and the prices are high. On top of that, other teams in the East are getting better.

^ THAT is why this is a scary situation to be in going into 2017-2018.

He gets a pass on #1. Every media outlet said the trade market was completely frozen all year last year. And Yzerman actually did make a deal, Drouin for Shattenkirk, that wound up getting nixed by Shattenkirk.

I also think it's a little early to complain that we haven't improved a bit from last year. We've passed the draft where not a whole lot happened, league-wide. I'd be shocked if we came out of July 1 without a new addition. All UFA contracts are risky, but we're in a decent position to take a risk. I'm really starting to like the idea of adding Marleau, even if we overpay him in $, so long as the term is short.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

He gets a pass on #1. Every media outlet said the trade market was completely frozen all year last year. And Yzerman actually did make a deal, Drouin for Shattenkirk, that wound up getting nixed by Shattenkirk.

I also think it's a little early to complain that we haven't improved a bit from last year. We've passed the draft where not a whole lot happened, league-wide. I'd be shocked if we came out of July 1 without a new addition. All UFA contracts are risky, but we're in a decent position to take a risk. I'm really starting to like the idea of adding Marleau, even if we overpay him in $, so long as the term is short.

Dropping Drouin and adding Marleau is a lateral move at best. Gonna have to do more than that.

 

[DFC]

Dropping Drouin and adding Marleau is a lateral move at best. Gonna have to do more than that.

Most of the attention is probably going to go to the D. And then we have to hope Erne and Point improve, Johnson and Palat show up in October, and Stamkos stays healthy. If we get all of that, or even some of that, the forwards should be improved. Especially if Nikita Kucherov plays like a Hart candidate again.

As bad as last season was, it ended on a really good note. We need the post-trade deadline team to show up in October, with a healthy Stamkos, and we need to make a few additions to it. I think we can make those additions both with the amount of cap space we have, and, if need be, (and I hope we're willing to do this if the right player is available) by dealing a piece or two from our prospect pool.

 

[Rschmitz]

I'm not really talking specifically about this off-season, but more about what seems like the general philosophy of the team right now. When was the last time we traded a prospect to land an NHL player? I honestly can't remember. Benoit Pouliot? I guess maybe Conacher for Bishop, if you make the case that Conacher was still a prospect at the time.

Meanwhile, it doesn't seem like we're digging all that deep into the prospect pool either. And we're starting to see players age out of their window of value, so to speak.

We traded a 1st and Gudas for Coburn
Several picks for Lindback
Bukeboom and a third for Brewer
2nd for Garrison

 

[Rschmitz]

You can't really "go for it" any more, at least not in the off season. At the deadline you can toss away assets because you aren't absorbing the entire cap hit, but that's it.

 

[The Macho King]

We traded a 1st and Gudas for Coburn
Several picks for Lindback
Bukeboom and a third for Brewer
2nd for Garrison

Connacher for Bishop.

 

[Rschmitz]

Connacher for Bishop.

Yep. Someone said somewhere that they weren't going to count that one for some reason.

Ty Wishart for Dwayne Roloson was another one.

With all due respect to anyone who thinks otherwise, I think the notion that Yzerman doesn't deal away futures is just false. We will probably see it again this off season.

 

[Felonious Python]

 

[Todd1a]

Calls on Johnson this team right now has to Add a top 6 forward not lose one lol

 

[Todd1a]

You can't really "go for it" any more, at least not in the off season. At the deadline you can toss away assets because you aren't absorbing the entire cap hit, but that's it.

And how many times have the Blackhawks done this and won! We seem to be the Canucks, rangers and sharks and are somehow ok with that!

 

[The Macho King]

And how many times have the Blackhawks done this and won! We seem to be the Canucks, rangers and sharks and are somehow ok with that!

Have any of the Blackhawks deadline acquisitions ever played an important role in a cup run? Most of the time they end up scratched/buried.