Speculation: 2017-18 Roster Discussion - Part 2

[DFC]

I think we will see more trades involving our futures when we get a clearer idea of where we are currently. I just think we need to see this team succeed again.

I hope so. Because we have an entire team of solid B prospects in the pool right now. Not all of them can play for us. I'm hoping to see us actually give a few of them NHL looks this year. I'm hoping to see young players take on a bigger role in general, which would justify the approach/philosophy of the last five years.

It just feels like every year we get excited to add yet more prospects. And we just missed the playoffs.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Yes I totally agree and see your point DFC. I think people misunderstand me I'm not saying going all in also! In 2012 it was ok for yzerman to do what he was doing he was rebuilding the farm which was needed. I agree we never go into the 2nd phase to truly become a cup contender and it frustrates me. I think we can all agree we are not far away from winning a cup. But we need to make 2-3 moves to get there. Drouin and Deangelo's trades set us back from that instead of getting guys that can help right now. Right now we clearly don't have the trade assets to get any defenseman or a top 9 forward or at least yzerman is not willing to part with any prospects or draft picks at this time. With players in there prime in tampa right now yzerman has to understand the window has arrived and is here yet it seems like he keeps rebuilding ?

But what if we aren't as close as we think we are? What if you make a play to get over the hump but then Stamkos and Johnson get hurt again? You just got rid of futures because you were too certain of the team now. I think if we do make a trade for futures soon it will be after we see what happens in FA. More likely at the deadline.

 

[Felonious Python]

 

[CupsOverCash]

I hope so. Because we have an entire team of solid B prospects in the pool right now. Not all of them can play for us. I'm hoping to see us actually give a few of them NHL looks this year. I'm hoping to see young players take on a bigger role in general, which would justify the approach/philosophy of the last five years.

It just feels like every year we get excited to add yet more prospects. And we just missed the playoffs.

I think we will see this more so this training camp than the last few. Trading away Boyle, Garrison and Filppula wasn't just about getting cap space, it was about creating some room for prospects ready to make the jump. I think we have quite a few prospects that can make some heads turn in camp. Get ready for a competitive camp.

 

[DFC]

But what if we aren't as close as we think we are? What if you make a play to get over the hump but then Stamkos and Johnson get hurt again? You just got rid of futures because you were too certain of the team now. I think if we do make a trade for futures soon it will be after we see what happens in FA. More likely at the deadline.

If we aren't as close as we think we are, we're screwed, because the core of the team is in its prime right now.

And again, no one's saying to sell the farm for the current team. But "futures" are a gamble. It's okay, once in a while, to sell an opportunity to gamble for a sure thing in the here and now.

The Garrison trade, for instance, worked out pretty well for us, even with Garrison falling a cliff last year. He gave us two good years of stability, and that was a big factor in two deep playoff runs.

I'm really not even saying Yzerman should be jumping on deals like the Hamonic one. More like, I just don't agree with the mindset that it's somehow ALWAYS an overpayment to give up good picks for a solid player in the here-and-now.

 

[DFC]

I think we will see this more so this training camp than the last few. Trading away Boyle, Garrison and Filppula wasn't just about getting cap space, it was about creating some room for prospects ready to make the jump. I think we have quite a few prospects that can make some heads turn in camp. Get ready for a competitive camp.

I'm hoping you're right. I suspect you might be. And I'll be pretty happy to see a couple of rookies in the lineup again.

Seems like a big problem we ran into was a bunch of our former young and hungry rookies grew into complacent vets. A little more spirit and fire is definitely needed.

Looks like Cirelli and Stephens could take the Brayden Point path to the NHL, if we're willing to let it happen.

 

[CupsOverCash]

If we aren't as close as we think we are, we're screwed, because the core of the team is in its prime right now.

And again, no one's saying to sell the farm for the current team. But "futures" are a gamble. It's okay, once in a while, to sell an opportunity to gamble for a sure thing in the here and now.

The Garrison trade, for instance, worked out pretty well for us, even with Garrison falling a cliff last year. He gave us two good years of stability, and that was a big factor in two deep playoff runs.

I'm really not even saying Yzerman should be jumping on deals like the Hamonic one. More like, I just don't agree with the mindset that it's somehow ALWAYS an overpayment to give up good picks for a solid player in the here-and-now.

Well we have seen Yzerman give up picks in trades before but he did so when we were hot and contending. If we were coming in this year coming off of another deep run I could see us being a little more aggressive in trades. But we're coming off a season where Stamkos was hurt all year. Johnson was getting hurt left and right. We just traded Drouin so that leaves a hole. I think we have to see what happens in FA. Because that will give us an idea of where they think we are. I still think our team can contend this year but we have to stay healthy. Something we haven't been able to do very well the last few years. It would be nice if the hockey gods gave us a break with injuries.

 

[Bolt32]

I'm hoping you're right. I suspect you might be. And I'll be pretty happy to see a couple of rookies in the lineup again.

Seems like a big problem we ran into was a bunch of our former young and hungry rookies grew into complacent vets. A little more spirit and fire is definitely needed.

Looks like Cirelli and Stephens could take the Brayden Point path to the NHL, if we're willing to let it happen.

I'm on the same page on letting a tough competition for the bottom 6 spots play out. We need more fire and energy in that locker-room. Guys that want that taste of the playoffs and a shot at the cup. Last year we did run into that problem of complacency. Dunno if it was fire lost, or just they think they could coast into the playoffs due to their two straight deep runs. Neither of it is true, and it's something that needs to be addressed.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I'm hoping you're right. I suspect you might be. And I'll be pretty happy to see a couple of rookies in the lineup again.

Seems like a big problem we ran into was a bunch of our former young and hungry rookies grew into complacent vets. A little more spirit and fire is definitely needed.

Looks like Cirelli and Stephens could take the Brayden Point path to the NHL, if we're willing to let it happen.

There are a lot of good players that will be ready within the next 3 years. The excitement over this team isn't winding down, it's only beginning. It's just this season is a little bit weird for me in seeing where we will be. Like I said we need to stay healthy. If we do that we will be a force again.

 

[Todd1a]

But what if we aren't as close as we think we are? What if you make a play to get over the hump but then Stamkos and Johnson get hurt again? You just got rid of futures because you were too certain of the team now. I think if we do make a trade for futures soon it will be after we see what happens in FA. More likely at the deadline.

The core is in there prime if we are not close then it's time to rebuild then. ready or not the time is now our core is in there prime.

 

[CupsOverCash]

The core is in there prime if we are not close then it's time to rebuild then. ready or not the time is now our core is in there prime.

I think it has more to do with how well this team stays healthy. In a way we have been rebuilding but we did just open up a lot of cap space. Let's see what happens in FA. We can always make a trade. We aren't in a hurry to do that.

 

[DFC]

There are a lot of good players that will be ready within the next 3 years. The excitement over this team isn't winding down, it's only beginning. It's just this season is a little bit weird for me in seeing where we will be. Like I said we need to stay healthy. If we do that we will be a force again.

We've been on that "three year" thing for a long time though. For all the prospects we've had, there hasn't been a whole lot of turnover. You wouldn't think we'd be going into this year with Killorn and Callahan slated as our 2nd line wingers. The super deep prospect pool is supposed to fix problems like that.

But our window opened a couple of years ago. It's still open. I do think management realizes it, and I think, over the summer, we're going to see Yzerman add a few pieces. Doesn't seem like he wants to stand pat.

Our team that showed up after the trade deadline (ironically) is a contending team. But they need to remember (the way they used to) that the season starts in October. I'm thinking specifically of Johnson and Palat, obviously. We know Palat does it every year, but I don't think people realize how dramatically Johnson's game turned around last year too. But again, we need to see that in October.

 

[Bolt32]

We've been on that "three year" thing for a long time though. For all the prospects we've had, there hasn't been a whole lot of turnover. You wouldn't think we'd be going into this year with Killorn and Callahan slated as our 2nd line wingers. The super deep prospect pool is supposed to fix problems like that.

But our window opened a couple of years ago. It's still open. I do think management realizes it, and I think, over the summer, we're going to see Yzerman add a few pieces. Doesn't seem like he wants to stand pat.

Our team that showed up after the trade deadline (ironically) is a contending team. But they need to remember (the way they used to) that the season starts in October. I'm thinking specifically of Johnson and Palat, obviously. We know Palat does it every year, but I don't think people realize how dramatically Johnson's game turned around last year too. But again, we need to see that in October.

I've been wondering that maybe he was just hurt? Dunno, I know he battled injuries, and wen't through the playoffs hurt. Dunno, probably just wishful thinking. That they weren't being completely transparent with the injuries he was battling. Hopefully next season the team just comes out in a storm and makes this seem just like a bad dream.

 

[CupsOverCash]

We've been on that "three year" thing for a long time though. For all the prospects we've had, there hasn't been a whole lot of turnover. You wouldn't think we'd be going into this year with Killorn and Callahan slated as our 2nd line wingers. The super deep prospect pool is supposed to fix problems like that.

But our window opened a couple of years ago. It's still open. I do think management realizes it, and I think, over the summer, we're going to see Yzerman add a few pieces. Doesn't seem like he wants to stand pat.

Our team that showed up after the trade deadline (ironically) is a contending team. But they need to remember (the way they used to) that the season starts in October. I'm thinking specifically of Johnson and Palat, obviously. We know Palat does it every year, but I don't think people realize how dramatically Johnson's game turned around last year too. But again, we need to see that in October.

I think a reason we haven't seen much turnover in terms of rookies is because of our FA veterans (important pieces and their contracts) and because of our contending status. One reason why we had those guys is because of our poor drafting before SY and Murray were here. It still hurts us to this day. Those guys draft well we have other guys there instead.

Although I do think it's good to add veteran pieces here and there. We will see SY do this again in FA. To what extent I don't know but these things do hold up young guys from coming up and making an impact at a young age. But I think as our team has our draftees entering their primes we will have other players come in and complement them. Without having to compensate with overpaying for other guys to come in.

 

[DFC]

I think a reason we haven't seen much turnover in terms of rookies is because of our FA veterans (important pieces and their contracts) and because of our contending status. One reason why we had those guys is because of our poor drafting before SY and Murray were here. It still hurts us to this day. Those guys draft well we have other guys there instead.

Although I do think it's good to add veteran pieces here and there. We will see SY do this again in FA. To what extent I don't know but these things do hold up young guys from coming up and making an impact at a young age. But I think as our team has our draftees entering their primes we will have other players come in and complement them. Without having to compensate with overpaying for other guys to come in.

So for instance, assuming TJ is signed and, indeed, in the long-term plans for management, how much sense does it make to keep 11,259 centers in the organization? I get that we need insurance players, but we need those at every position. It seems like, as early as two years ago, we could have moved a prospect center or two to address organizational weaknesses.

But we seem to be running into this pattern of drafting players (particularly centers), running their value up when they over-perform in junior and (sometimes) the AHL, and then driving it back into the gutter when they can't really carve out an NHL role at 23 or 24. I'm obviously thinking mostly about Namestnikov here, but you can sort of see the same thing playing out with Matt Peca.

I'll always believe it was a mistake not to move Namestnikov as soon as it was clear he would never be a 2C here. He had Stamkos and Johnson in front of him, and a number of younger, better prospects behind him. And now he has next to no value as a trade asset.

 

[CupsOverCash]

So for instance, assuming TJ is signed and, indeed, in the long-term plans for management, how much sense does it make to keep 11,259 centers in the organization? I get that we need insurance players, but we need those at every position. It seems like, as early as two years ago, we could have moved a prospect center or two to address organizational weaknesses.

But we seem to be running into this pattern of drafting players (particularly centers), running their value up when they over-perform in junior and (sometimes) the AHL, and then driving it back into the gutter when they can't really carve out an NHL role at 23 or 24. I'm obviously thinking mostly about Namestnikov here, but you can sort of see the same thing playing out with Matt Peca.

I'll always believe it was a mistake not to move Namestnikov as soon as it was clear he would never be a 2C here. He had Stamkos and Johnson in front of him, and a number of younger, better prospects behind him. And now he has next to no value as a trade asset.

I think one reason why they collect these guys is because of competition. There's only so many guys who can come up and grab a spot but if you have a lot of competition it drives play up. When that happens guys have to be more valuable than just a center. They have to prove they can play wing too. You see the guys we're drafting and it's smart high character guys with skill. The competition is there. We just need these guys to prove their value in a big stage. Which I think we have actually done a pretty good job at seeing our AHL teams go very far in the playoffs. But I think we will see more guys threatening to take other guys jobs more in the next few years. I particularly can't wait to see training camp this year. Very competitive. Especially after our team just missed the playoffs.

Namestnikov is a strange one to me. I think he has been a "good" player he just hasn't produced offensively. If that doesn't change I could see someone take his job soon. He's been given a fair shake at our team. He's responsible and shows some flash offensively but just not enough for a team that needs him to step up when our other guys aren't doing their thing. I think he has value but not where we would like it to be.

 

[Todd1a]

I think one reason why they collect these guys is because of competition. There's only so many guys who can come up and grab a spot but if you have a lot of competition it drives play up. When that happens guys have to be more valuable than just a center. They have to prove they can play wing too. You see the guys we're drafting and it's smart high character guys with skill. The competition is there. We just need these guys to prove their value in a big stage. Which I think we have actually done a pretty good job at seeing our AHL teams go very far in the playoffs. But I think we will see more guys threatening to take other guys jobs more in the next few years. I particularly can't wait to see training camp this year. Very competitive. Especially after our team just missed the playoffs.

Namestnikov is a strange one to me. I think he has been a "good" player he just hasn't produced offensively. If that doesn't change I could see someone take his job soon. He's been given a fair shake at our team. He's responsible and shows some flash offensively but just not enough for a team that needs him to step up when our other guys aren't doing their thing. I think he has value but not where we would like it to be.

For once this past year I was glad to see Brayden point make the team! It would be nice if one junior player made our team each season instead of holding them back in the ahl. I feel like most of the time yzerman keeps guys down there to long that deserve to be in the NHL. Some kids are ready for the NHL at 20 years old and some kids are not! But at least give some a good chance.

 

[DFC]

I think one reason why they collect these guys is because of competition. There's only so many guys who can come up and grab a spot but if you have a lot of competition it drives play up. When that happens guys have to be more valuable than just a center. They have to prove they can play wing too. You see the guys we're drafting and it's smart high character guys with skill. The competition is there. We just need these guys to prove their value in a big stage. Which I think we have actually done a pretty good job at seeing our AHL teams go very far in the playoffs. But I think we will see more guys threatening to take other guys jobs more in the next few years. I particularly can't wait to see training camp this year. Very competitive. Especially after our team just missed the playoffs.

Namestnikov is a strange one to me. I think he has been a "good" player he just hasn't produced offensively. If that doesn't change I could see someone take his job soon. He's been given a fair shake at our team. He's responsible and shows some flash offensively but just not enough for a team that needs him to step up when our other guys aren't doing their thing. I think he has value but not where we would like it to be.

I think it was clear two years ago that Namestnikov would never be the #2C here. But he still had the potential to be a #2 elsewhere, so he was a prime candidate to move. Now I'm looking at Matt Peca, who appears to have the skills to play in the NHL, maybe as a 3C, but, in our organization, has players both ahead of him and behind him who are more valuable.

Now, this wouldn't be a problem if we weren't starving for defense at all levels.

I guess, over all, what I'm saying is I wish we would deal a little more often (not all the time, but a little more often) from our positions of strength to address weaknesses. Our prospect pool, as a whole, is a position of strength, but we rarely use it to acquire NHL pieces, and have a tendency to, instead, let the prospects diminish in value over time.

 

[CupsOverCash]

For once this past year I was glad to see Brayden point make the team! It would be nice if one junior player made our team each season instead of holding them back in the ahl. I feel like most of the time yzerman keeps guys down there to long that deserve to be in the NHL. Some kids are ready for the NHL at 20 years old and some kids are not! But at least give some a good chance.

Well it's tough to do when you have a team that goes far into the playoffs for two years. As we know Coop likes his players to be defensively responsible. How many players are doing this at 20? Point was a rare case where the offense is matched with the defense responsibility. I know we like to get on Coops case for liking players like this but these are the players that wins games. If our teams would only stay healthy and have a little more depth scoring I think we have a cup by now.

 

[The Gongshow]

The time is now to go all in on cups, Yzerman keeps building for the future when he should be getting pieces to win now i.e CHI and PIT style

 

[CupsOverCash]

I think it was clear two years ago that Namestnikov would never be the #2C here. But he still had the potential to be a #2 elsewhere, so he was a prime candidate to move. Now I'm looking at Matt Peca, who appears to have the skills to play in the NHL, maybe as a 3C, but, in our organization, has players both ahead of him and behind him who are more valuable.

Now, this wouldn't be a problem if we weren't starving for defense at all levels.

I guess, over all, what I'm saying is I wish we would deal a little more often (not all the time, but a little more often) from our positions of strength to address weaknesses. Our prospect pool, as a whole, is a position of strength, but we rarely use it to acquire NHL pieces, and have a tendency to, instead, let the prospects diminish in value over time.

Yea I would agree with that. I think Yzerman gets a little greedy with his prospects. I think he likes to develop players a little more than maybe he should. Which can be good but can also be a problem. I think it depends on the attitude of the player. I understand some of these guys want to play as soon as they can and prove they belong which means they will get paid sooner than later. While I think Yzerman takes the longer route to keep them a little cheaper I do think he believes in the long term development too. That was something Detroit was so good at and a reason why they were so good for so long.

My concern is some of these kids don't want to do that. We saw it with Drouin. Sergachev wants to play next year. I don't think he will. Especially when we can get a 2nd round back. My hope is that we will have an abundance of Centers that prove themselves and we sell some of them for valuable pieces. I'm not sure what we could get for a player like Peca but I think if we get players like Howden and Stephens prove themselves at the next level we will see some more trades involving our centers. Remember C is a valuable position too. Let's just hope Yzerman doesn't get too greedy with them.

 

[DFC]

Yea I would agree with that. I think Yzerman gets a little greedy with his prospects. I think he likes to develop players a little more than maybe he should. Which can be good but can also be a problem. I think it depends on the attitude of the player. I understand some of these guys want to play as soon as they can and prove they belong which means they will get paid sooner than later. While I think Yzerman takes the longer route to keep them a little cheaper I do think he believes in the long term development too. That was something Detroit was so good at and a reason why they were so good for so long.

My concern is some of these kids don't want to do that. We saw it with Drouin. Sergachev wants to play next year. I don't think he will. Especially when we can get a 2nd round back. My hope is that we will have an abundance of Centers that prove themselves and we sell some of them for valuable pieces. I'm not sure what we could get for a player like Peca but I think if we get players like Howden and Stephens prove themselves at the next level we will see some more trades involving our centers. Remember C is a valuable position too. Let's just hope Yzerman doesn't get too greedy with them.

I agree that C is a valuable position. And I think Yzerman has always tried to build down the middle. But right now, we're kind of set. We have Stamkos, Johnson, and Point. I have no issue with keeping extra centers around who can, you know, fill in someday if we trade Johnson. But, instead of, for instance, Howden and Cirelli, what if we approached it more like Howden OR Cirelli? And, when we know with a high level of certainty that, like in Namestnikov's case, one of them won't reach the kind of potential in TB that they might reach elsewhere, move them along and wish them the best.

I just hope we don't spend the next few years smashing players against the glass ceiling of our 1-2-3. Or that other glass ceiling: Alex Killorn.

 

[The Macho King]

The time is now to go all in on cups, Yzerman keeps building for the future when he should be getting pieces to win now i.e CHI and PIT style

When did Chicago trade top prospects? Hell - outside of the Kessel trade, when did Pitt? (And the Kessel deal doesn't come along often)

There are a lot more examples of teams that went for it and regretted it than ones that went for it and had it work out.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I agree that C is a valuable position. And I think Yzerman has always tried to build down the middle. But right now, we're kind of set. We have Stamkos, Johnson, and Point. I have no issue with keeping extra centers around who can, you know, fill in someday if we trade Johnson. But, instead of, for instance, Howden and Cirelli, what if we approached it more like Howden OR Cirelli? And, when we know with a high level of certainty that, like in Namestnikov's case, one of them won't reach the kind of potential in TB that they might reach elsewhere, move them along and wish them the best.

I just hope we don't spend the next few years smashing players against the glass ceiling of our 1-2-3. Or that other glass ceiling: Alex Killorn.

This brings me back to what I was saying before. I just don't see us doing this right now. Stamkos and Johnson have been getting hurt yearly now. What do we do if this happens again this year? I think SY will make moves. Even in FA. I just don't see us moving futures right now. Just enough uncertainty about this season to shy away from it.

 

[DFC]

This brings me back to what I was saying before. I just don't see us doing this right now. Stamkos and Johnson have been getting hurt yearly now. What do we do if this happens again this year? I think SY will make moves. Even in FA. I just don't see us moving futures right now. Just enough uncertainty about this season to shy away from it.

I'm not saying we should be moving every insurance player in the organization. But I mean, is it a bigger concern that Stamkos and Johnson might get hurt, or that Slater Koekkoek might be our second pairing D with next to no NHL experience? The alternative: a Brayden Coburn who appears to be regressing. Stamkos and Johnson MIGHT get hurt (okay, Johnson probably will), but the other problem is a sure thing, and we've had top-4 problems for a long, long time.

We didn't get into this position overnight, so I'm not talking about changing it all in one big swoop. It's more like, I think we could achieve a lot more organizational balance if we were to deal some players who we're very certain will not reach their full potential in TB, but have a shot to do so elsewhere.