Salary Cap: 2017-18 Roster Building Thread V | Contract/FA charts in Post #1 | CAP SET at $75M

[Riptide]

For our 3C, if Bonino isn't resigned I think We should give Toronto a call for bozak. 1yr left on his deal and ask for them to retain Salary. Something like Lukas Bengttson+2018 2nd for Bozak at 50% retain?

Not happening. He put up 55 points last season and they're not looking to move him. If we wanted him, we'd have to give up something worthwhile... none of which was offered in what you proposed.

Did I not read this post a few pages?

Yes, apparently being told that it's unrealistic the first time wasn't enough.

 

[Riptide]

Right. I guess I'm leary even of a reasonable caphit to Bonino if it's going for 5 years (or god forbid, 6). IMO, before they sign any UFA contracts, management should be taking a hard look at what Chicago had to do with Panarin and then imagining how they'd feel making the same decision down the road about Guentzel.

A) This isn't comparable to Chicago's situation. Pittsburgh's cap situation is nowhere close to Chicago's. Chicago has 7 - yes 7 contracts over 5m and are spending 21 million on 3 wingers.

B) Unlike Chicago, Pittsburgh has multiple contracts expiring before we have to give Guentzel a new contact. Hagelin, Hornqvist, Cole, etc. On top of that we have multiple players (or will have between now and 2 years from now) making between 1-3m almost all of whom will be easily moveable. Chicago was ****ed until Hossa got a weird "allergy" that saved them. The only moveable contracts to none "core" players were to players they needed such as AA or Hjalmarsson or elite talent like Panarin.

C) The difference between Panarin and Bonino is that Panarin is a winger and Bonino is a center. You're not going to win a cup without a quality #3C. You can win a cup (and many teams have) without multiple elite wingers.

 

[Pancakes]

Has any player had a greater increase in production than 37 goals between one season and another?

Gretzky went from 55 to 92

Bernie Nicholls went from 32 to 70

 

[rho]

A) This isn't comparable to Chicago's situation. Pittsburgh's cap situation is nowhere close to Chicago's. Chicago has 7 - yes 7 contracts over 5m and are spending 21 million on 3 wingers.

I didn't say the situations are comparable (yet). Chicago didn't get to where they are overnight or with one move. No one move is going to break the team or put them in cap hell. But it's that kind of thinking (this one move isn't going to hurt us) that leads you down the garden path.

 

[Peat]

Right. I guess I'm leary even of a reasonable caphit to Bonino if it's going for 5 years (or god forbid, 6). IMO, before they sign any UFA contracts, management should be taking a hard look at what Chicago had to do with Panarin and then imagining how they'd feel making the same decision down the road about Guentzel.

I hear you. I'd be uncomfy with 5. A 4 year contract on a 29 year old centre feels safe enough providing there's no NTCs. 5 could be pushing it.

Plus, this would be our first contract flirting with danger and Chicago had gods knows how many.

The market really does stink though. Toronto want to hold on to Bozak, Hanzal will want the same thing as Bonino, Thornton wants 3 years, Haula/Jarnkrok/Lowry aren't available, Henrique would be great but would cost a serious asset, there's a bunch of maybe guys who you could get for cheap but there's a reason for that... and so on. If we have a choice between a sub-par centre now and a potentially unsafe contract later on, I'd rather do it right now.

Sign Bonino for 4 years and trade him 2 years on. That's safe. I think.

The real danger comes if they start trying to give all of Rust, Wilson, etc.etc. nice contracts.

 

[ColePens]

From Bonino's standpoint, he should go with the best contract. Because the owners will dump him like a bad habit if his play drops considerably. I'm anti-team friendly deal. Owners rarely hold up their end if a player does something for them.

 

[Riptide]

I didn't say the situations are comparable (yet). Chicago didn't get to where they are overnight or with one move. No one move is going to break the team or put them in cap hell. But it's that kind of thinking (this one move isn't going to hurt us) that leads you down the garden path.

They still wouldn't be even if we signed him and overpaid to do it. And being so paranoid about the cap in 2+ years is what's going to prevent this team from being a contender. You overpay for centers because you cannot win without them. You do not overpay for wingers like Chicago has done.

 

[Extra Texture]

I do find it funny that the very same people in this thread laughing at the thought of Yak with the Pens in the very same thread claim Hags is irreplaceable.

Hags at 4 million per gave the team 6 goals. I would bet my entire net worth, in fact, my life that Yak would at least double that production and for half of the money.

I dont think I've seen anyone claim Hags is irreplaceable.

What he definitely is, and it seems to be a widely held opinion around here, is a valuable player who most preferred not to lose to Vegas for nothing. Even with his cap hit, his overall game is much more valuable than the points he scores (the number of which was, by the way, 27 in 37 games in the reg season with the Pens last year....if he finds the right line he clicks).

But yeah, that ignores the larger point. Hagelin works in this team. We already know that. It was a gamble at the time yeah, but it paid off in spades when Sully turned the team into speed demons. Yak is an unknown.

 

[rho]

The real danger comes if they start trying to give all of Rust, Wilson, etc.etc. nice contracts.

Haha, maybe it's just the pessimist in me (or more probably, the alarmist), but I worry about making mistakes this offseason like giving 3-year contracts to Daley or Hainsey.

 

[Beauner]

OT, but I just saw Sid at the PensGear store at the Arena just walking around, picking stuff up for his family I presume. Too bad I was too shy to say anything

From Bonino's standpoint, he should go with the best contract. Because the owners will dump him like a bad habit if his play drops considerably. I'm anti-team friendly deal. Owners rarely hold up their end if a player does something for them.

Just look at all the owners/GMs who asked guys to waive their NTCs or NMSc for the draft. I think it was Glencross maybe that said if he could do it again he'd never take a hometown discount.

 

[ColePens]

OT, but I just saw Sid at the PensGear store at the Arena just walking around, picking stuff up for his family I presume. Too bad I was too shy to say anything


Just look at all the owners/GMs who asked guys to waive their NTCs or NMSc for the draft. I think it was Glencross maybe that said if he could do it again he'd never take a hometown discount.

I look at Cutch's for the Pirates, too. Dude did everything he could to give the team a chance to spend money. They basically took the money for themselves. You look at buy-outs, waived NMCs, the Subban trade for crying out loud, etc. Hell no would I ever give an owner a discount.

And that's the thing - you might want to give Pittsburgh and your teammates a discount, but you aren't. You are giving it to an owner who has plenty of money to spend. If you want to work a fair deal where you are comfortable, sure. Go ahead. But do not help the owner out. He will never reciprocate the same way.

 

[Riptide]

I look at Cutch's for the Pirates, too. Dude did everything he could to give the team a chance to spend money. They basically took the money for themselves. You look at buy-outs, waived NMCs, the Subban trade for crying out loud, etc. Hell no would I ever give an owner a discount.

And that's the thing - you might want to give Pittsburgh and your teammates a discount, but you aren't. You are giving it to an owner who has plenty of money to spend. If you want to work a fair deal where you are comfortable, sure. Go ahead. But do not help the owner out. He will never reciprocate the same way.

It's not the same thing in the NHL as it is in MLB. In MLB there's no hard cap, so when a player leaves a million or two on the table... it doesn't impact things the same way unless the team plans on spending to a set budget and actually uses those savings on the roster. In the NHL, there's a hard cap. Pittsburgh is a cap team, which means if a player leaves 500k a year on the table, that is cap space that the team can use and that this team has used every year over the last few years. So, no it's not money that's going to the owner's pockets.

 

[rho]

They still wouldn't be even if we signed him and overpaid to do it. And being so paranoid about the cap in 2+ years is what's going to prevent this team from being a contender. You overpay for centers because you cannot win without them. You do not overpay for wingers like Chicago has done.

Again, I didn't say that one contract would break the team. But that attitude ("what'll one more hurt") can. What you call paranoia, I call prudence. Agree to disagree I guess. If you're interested in maximizing the current window (and of course, I am too) I'd say that overpaying for a short term is a better "mistake" than paying market rates for long term. In other words, I'd rather overpay Thornton for 2 years (if he were to accept it) than pay Bonino market rate for 5 or 6.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

You can win a cup (and many teams have) without multiple elite wingers.

Depends on the team. It always depends on the team. The 2011 Boston Bruins won the Cup with Chris Kelly as the 3C and Gregory Campbell as the 4C. It worked for Boston because all four centers played Claude Julien hockey.

Personally, I think the 'Hawks have made a monumental gaffe in trading two invaluable pieces in Panarin and Hjalmarsson. If the 'Hawks did not view either player as part of their core, shame on them. It is going to hurt.

Quenneville's a good coach but those two players won't be replaced. Alex DeBrincat is a very good prospect and plays a similar game as Panarin, but I think they are asking a lot of a 20-year-old to produce with Kane. Murphy will not be able to replace all that Hjalmarsson did for the 'Hawks.

They did all this to try to get Toews going offensively, basically, by bringing back Saad.

I would rather have Panarin and Hjalmarsson than Toews. Yeah you create a hole at center, but at least you get rid of what is starting to become an albatross contract.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

From Bonino's standpoint, he should go with the best contract. Because the owners will dump him like a bad habit if his play drops considerably. I'm anti-team friendly deal. Owners rarely hold up their end if a player does something for them.

It is a fine line, I would demand what I thought my legitmite value was, but not push for ever single cent I could grab. Look at the rumors around McDavid and 14M. With his projected ability and rising cap here in a few years will he be worth 14M, yes, but will a 14M cap hit for one player hurt that teams chances of winning? Also yes.

Then look at the Toews and Kane deals in Chicago, 21M for 2 players. Were both of them merited a big pay day? Oh yes, after multiple championships like they helped bring and being to two corner stones of that top 6 they most certainly would. But you also can't tell me, if they would have taken anywhere from 8.5-9M per that it wouldn't help Chicago ice an even better team year to year. Look at Tarasenko's deal, and yes before someone says it I am aware of UFA VS RFA, but how much better is Kane than Tarasenko? 3M per better? I am not sure.

So it comes down to players properly fending for themselves in terms of their value, but not gutting a team in the wallet ether if they want a truly year in year out championship contending team.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

Just popped up on the Bleacher Report on my phone, Markov looking for 2 year, 6M per in a deal.

 

[Extra Texture]

From Bonino's standpoint, he should go with the best contract. Because the owners will dump him like a bad habit if his play drops considerably. I'm anti-team friendly deal. Owners rarely hold up their end if a player does something for them.

I would agree with that, and I think he will ultimately chase the biggest offer.

A guy like Bones has to cash in, plain and simple. At 29, I could see him getting a 4-5 year deal with someone that takes him to age 34. Its time for him to get a big pay day and I dont begrudge him that at all.

In my own fantasyland I was hoping his could parlay his friendship with Shattenkirk, and the two could sign here for something under market (Bones ~3M, KS ~6M) just to play together and be super friends. But yeah, clearly that is gonna happen.

I was just considering this morning how cool I would be with Bones re-signing here for less money but a longer term. His main gift has never been speed. I feel like Bonino's game would age well over time. If the Pens called him up and offered him like 21M for 6 years (3.5M AAV) would he take it. I know you dont wanna really hand out term for lower level players, but I also dont think it would be the second coming of the Kunitz/Dupuis deals in how it would age. He's a good pivot, a good PKer, and I guess I just dont see his game aging badly if he is kept in that 3C role.

 

[Slaaapshuter]

C) The difference between Panarin and Bonino is that Panarin is a winger and Bonino is a center. You're not going to win a cup without a quality #3C. You can win a cup (and many teams have) without multiple elite wingers.

In my opinion we did just that. Or rather, we did have 3 quality C's, Bonino just wasn't one of them.

We did pretty good in the regular season, despite Bonino's presence for 80% of the game, where he was such a net negative he dragged everyone around him down. He wasn't visible against Columbus, he wasn't visible against Washington and only started to show against Ottawa. He was pretty good in his two final games, after which Rowney had to replace him on the center chart and we manage to win a Cup again...

1. From my view, Bonino ain't all that and a bag of chips.
2. As shown above, my opinion is that it's Cullen who is/was the more important centers of the two. If say next year Cullen isn't here and Bonino gets paid a massive contract. Once Cullen isn't there pulling his weight, I make a prediction that people will start to sour on Bonino and his contract real fast.
3. If you re-sign Bonino to a reasonable (low term, or at least a tradeable contract), I still think people will be less impressed with Bonino, because Cullen isn't there making the 4th line the most dangerous in the league and therefore more spotlight will be directed towards Bonino.

People were screaming for Bonino to be a healthy scratch during the regular season.

To summarize - A lot of Boninos flaws were overshadowed by Cullen's greatness. Once Cullen is gone... But by all means, if there's no deal to be made or FA to sign, keep Bonino. Just don't over commit just because there was no-one better this year.

 

[ColePens]

Yep, ET, and I don't think guys like Bones will be looking solid well into their late 30s like Cully did. You have to cash in.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I would agree with that, and I think he will ultimately chase the biggest offer.

A guy like Bones has to cash in, plain and simple. At 29, I could see him getting a 4-5 year deal with someone that takes him to age 34. Its time for him to get a big pay day and I dont begrudge him that at all.

In my own fantasyland I was hoping his could parlay his friendship with Shattenkirk, and the two could sign here for something under market (Bones ~3M, KS ~6M) just to play together and be super friends. But yeah, clearly that is gonna happen.

I was just considering this morning how cool I would be with Bones re-signing here for less money but a longer term. His main gift has never been speed. I feel like Bonino's game would age well over time. If the Pens called him up and offered him like 21M for 6 years (3.5M AAV) would he take it. I know you dont wanna really hand out term for lower level players, but I also dont think it would be the second coming of the Kunitz/Dupuis deals in how it would age. He's a good pivot, a good PKer, and I guess I just dont see his game aging badly if he is kept in that 3C role.

The problem with Kunitz and Dupuis (and Scuderi...) was that Shero didn't have just one. If it had been just Kunitz or just Dupuis it wouldn't have been such a problem. If a team has one unfortunate but not awful contract then I think they're fine, the problem is when it's multiple things.

Bonino for 6 years isn't appealing, 4/5 would be better, but it would help keep the cap hit down and I don't think there are a lot of 3C options available right now. The lack of obvious options is the big problem right now. It can't be another season of letting him float until the playoffs are close though. The talk comes after 10 bad games, not in March after a season of crap. If he has to be scratched because he's sucking them so be it because he can't be invisible for most of the season.

 

[Peat]

Haha, maybe it's just the pessimist in me (or more probably, the alarmist), but I worry about making mistakes this offseason like giving 3-year contracts to Daley or Hainsey.

I think you're worrying over nothing there. I certainly hope so, that would be mental

 

[chethejet]

Bonino can't go from a necessity to a luxury. He should take the best deal since quite frankly he is a 3rd line center. So if the Habs want to pay him 4+ for 5 years, take it. He has two cups and wants to maximize that. Pens will replace him with a solid center.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Friedman's low key good at throwing **** out there, but this is worth a read...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-trade-value-first-round-pick/

Basically says the Pens have "circled around him before" and it might take Maatta + to get him.

 

[Riptide]

Depends on the team. It always depends on the team. The 2011 Boston Bruins won the Cup with Chris Kelly as the 3C and Gregory Campbell as the 4C. It worked for Boston because all four centers played Claude Julien hockey.

You mean the Kelly who out produced Bonino this year and only had 5 pts less then him in his run last year? That Kelly? Not to mention that they also had Peverely playing more minutes then Kelly and who took almost as many draws as Campbell.

 

[AgentM]

Friedman's low key good at throwing **** out there, but this is worth a read...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-trade-value-first-round-pick/

Basically says the Pens have "circled around him before" and it might take Maatta + to get him.

Squirting gasoline on the dying embers of the Duchene talk! I don't think we need to make a move that big but I also don't care, I love huge trades and would welcome bringing him in!

I also agree with what Friedman mentioned Sather and Jackson saying about bringing in new blood to keep the drive for championships fresh. Adding another new forward and a new defenseman would be good for that.