2017-18 Kings News/Rumors/Tidbits

[Ziggy Stardust]

Jagr is close to becoming a senior citizen. The suggestion to sign him may not have been bad a few years ago, but now? Dear God, no.

 

[KINGS17]

Doughty isn't signing a moment before he wants to. He's in the driver's seat on this. He's the exceptional talent. It only makes sense for him to keep the Kings hanging in suspense as long as possible. He's going to get his giant contract one way or another, and no reason to take the Kings out of the potential bidding mix.

He's not going anywhere at this deadline, or this next draft, or July 1st. The earliest he'll get traded is the 2019 deadline, and only if the Kings aren't in the race.

If the cap goes up again, Doughty can get a couple extra pennies in his deal. He's not signing until he gets every dollar he can. It's going to be at least the 2nd half of next year when he does. Most likely just how Stamkos played out. All the way to July 1st, he'll talk to other teams, and probably re-sign for the most money. He could also walk. I'm guessing nothing will happen until at least the 2019 deadline though.

We'll talk about all the potential deals that could or should be made. How the Kings must choose as early as possible. Which is all fine and good, but that's not how these things go. They drag on, and on, and on. The Kings need to keep selling tickets. Reporters need something to talk about. Toronto needs to think they'll finally get one of their good Canadian boys to come home.

Uh in the end Stamkos signed for what the Lightning offered, not what his agent was looking to get. I think this also points out if the player wants to stay with his current team there is nothing his agent or NHLPA has to say about it.

From the article:

How Stamkos contract with Lightning was completed

"Yzerman had decided to hold firm on an offer of $8.5 million per season over eight years, but Meehan had orders from Stamkos to get a deal done with Tampa Bay. Stamkos wanted to stay and was willing to do it at Yzerman's price."

"Some people, when they're in this position, chase the most money possible," Stamkos said Thursday. "I think I realized the situation and understood there could have been some money left out there. But for me, that's not what it's all about. It's about going to an organization that I was comfortable with and something that gave me the best chance to win, in my mind."

Hmm, I don't think Kopitar and Doughty are on the same page as Stamkos. I guess it remains to be seen with Doughty.

"This team is on the verge of hopefully competing for Stanley Cups for years to come," Stamkos said. "I felt in my heart that Tampa was always the place I wanted to stay. It was just following my heart and being loyal to the organization that brought me up."

Does this seem to be a position Doughty will take? Sure didn't hear any of this out of Kopitar.

 

[lexlavender]

Uh in the end Stamkos signed for what the Lightning offered, not what his agent was looking to get. I think this also points out if the player wants to stay with his current team there is nothing his agent or NHLPA has to say about it.

From the article:

How Stamkos contract with Lightning was completed

"Yzerman had decided to hold firm on an offer of $8.5 million per season over eight years, but Meehan had orders from Stamkos to get a deal done with Tampa Bay. Stamkos wanted to stay and was willing to do it at Yzerman's price."

"Some people, when they're in this position, chase the most money possible," Stamkos said Thursday. "I think I realized the situation and understood there could have been some money left out there. But for me, that's not what it's all about. It's about going to an organization that I was comfortable with and something that gave me the best chance to win, in my mind."

Hmm, I don't think Kopitar and Doughty are on the same page as Stamkos. I guess it remains to be seen with Doughty.

"This team is on the verge of hopefully competing for Stanley Cups for years to come," Stamkos said. "I felt in my heart that Tampa was always the place I wanted to stay. It was just following my heart and being loyal to the organization that brought me up."

Does this seem to be a position Doughty will take? Sure didn't hear any of this out of Kopitar.

#1. You can't guarantee that Stamkos isn't being political with his comments. Kopitar also signed well before his free agency was up, yet you don't read into that at all apparently. I GUARANTEE Doughty will say similar crap if he resigns with LA (in fact, he's already been saying similar comments).

#2. 8.5 is equivalent to 10 because of the tax situation in Tampa.

#3. Why are we crapping on players who just want the best for them and their families in a business scenario?

 

[KINGS17]

#1. You can't guarantee that Stamkos isn't being political with his comments. Kopitar also signed well before his free agency was up, yet you don't read into that at all apparently. I GUARANTEE Doughty will say similar crap if he resigns with LA (in fact, he's already been saying similar comments).

#2. 8.5 is equivalent to 10 because of the tax situation in Tampa.

#3. Why are we crapping on players who just want the best for them and their families in a business scenario?

I didn't crap on anyone. Someone made an invalid comparison to the Stamkos contract negotiation. I corrected it and added some editorial comments. I commend Stamkos for knowing his own mind and sticking to his guns. His team is the odds on favorite to win a cup this season and will no doubt contend for the next few seasons as well.

Kopitar signed 6 months before he hit UFA status and got everything he was asking for in the negotiation. This after Lombardi was quoted as saying they weren't even in the same ballpark. Then Luc and Rob get involved and Kopitar signs the deal for exactly what he was asking. Sorry, but that's how it went down. The Kings got bent over to the max on Kopitar's deal. There is no other way to spin it.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

#3. Why are we crapping on players who just want the best for them and their families in a business scenario?

That's what fans do. That's also the reason why fans are still irrationally upset with Rob Blake.

 

[KINGS17]

That's what fans do. That's also the reason why fans are still irrationally upset with Rob Blake.

Let's not pretend some of the arguments made against such deals by fans are business arguments. It's easy for me to explain why you don't go out and sign a soon to be 30-year old forward to an 8-years and $80M contract. I have done it on multiple occasions.

It's the players and the agents who use the fans emotional attachment to the player to make irrational deals with management. Believe me I think Kopitar and Meehan are the smart ones in this situation. It certainly isn't the fans or Kings management.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Uh in the end Stamkos signed for what the Lightning offered, not what his agent was looking to get. I think this also points out if the player wants to stay with his current team there is nothing his agent or NHLPA has to say about it.

From the article:

How Stamkos contract with Lightning was completed

"Yzerman had decided to hold firm on an offer of $8.5 million per season over eight years, but Meehan had orders from Stamkos to get a deal done with Tampa Bay. Stamkos wanted to stay and was willing to do it at Yzerman's price."

"Some people, when they're in this position, chase the most money possible," Stamkos said Thursday. "I think I realized the situation and understood there could have been some money left out there. But for me, that's not what it's all about. It's about going to an organization that I was comfortable with and something that gave me the best chance to win, in my mind."

Hmm, I don't think Kopitar and Doughty are on the same page as Stamkos. I guess it remains to be seen with Doughty.

"This team is on the verge of hopefully competing for Stanley Cups for years to come," Stamkos said. "I felt in my heart that Tampa was always the place I wanted to stay. It was just following my heart and being loyal to the organization that brought me up."

Does this seem to be a position Doughty will take? Sure didn't hear any of this out of Kopitar.

I wouldn't expect Kopitar or Doughty to talk like that. They've got their Cups, now they want the money. They gave it to Kopitar, and will offer all they can to Doughty.

You can talk about Lombardi all day, but he also signed Gaborik, and didn't let Richards go. He also signed Brown and Quick to big and/or long deals. He did take Doughty to the end of camp in 2011, but he wasn't dealing with a soon to be UFA. However much Robitaille and Blake got their corporate hands involved, Lombardi wasn't going to let Kopitar go. Kopitar had the leverage. There's no other way to spin that either.

No matter what the Kings do they're screwed. Sign Doughty to a monster deal, and now that's on the cap. Trade him or let him walk, you most likely won't see a similar player for however many years. It may not be 20 years, but it probably won't be 5 either.

 

[KINGS17]

I wouldn't expect Kopitar or Doughty to talk like that. They've got their Cups, now they want the money. They gave it to Kopitar, and will offer all they can to Doughty.

You can talk about Lombardi all day, but he also signed Gaborik, and didn't let Richards go. He also signed Brown and Quick to big and/or long deals. He did take Doughty to the end of camp in 2011, but he wasn't dealing with a soon to be UFA. However much Robitaille and Blake got their corporate hands involved, Lombardi wasn't going to let Kopitar go. Kopitar had the leverage. There's no other way to spin that either.

No matter what the Kings do they're screwed. Sign Doughty to a monster deal, and now that's on the cap. Trade him or let him walk, you most likely won't see a similar player for however many years. It may not be 20 years, but it probably won't be 5 either.

Wait, I thought you said in an earlier post the Doughty negotiation would be similar to the Stamkos / Tampa Bay negotiation.

Am I missing something?

The idea it doesn't matter what you do, you're screwed is a fallacy. What the organization and what we do as individuals always matters. We aren't leaves whose fate is decided by some imaginary wind.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It’s what happens in the open market. You seem to forget that someone out there is cutting these checks, and how much revenue there is in the NHL.

I don’t blame the players for getting as much as they can. Their career can be cut short in an instance, and the average career of a pro athlete is considerably shorter than any other profession.

How often do you see a UFA sign for far less than what was expected? You seem to think the players live in this fantasy world where loyalty is far more rewarding than long term stability.

Are athletes overpaid? Sure, but we’re also attending an event where the price of beer is over $10, parking is over $20, a pretzel costs $5, and having to sit around annoying fans who constantly yell “shooooot” costs almost $100 a seat. The owners and management side are just as guilty for driving up prices.

They don’t have a gun to their heads nor are they being held hostage. This is how you remain competitive in sports. It’s an arms race.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Let's not pretend some of the arguments made against such deals by fans are business arguments. It's easy for me to explain why you don't go out and sign a soon to be 30-year old forward to an 8-years and $80M contract. I have done it on multiple occasions.

It's the players and the agents who use the fans emotional attachment to the player to make irrational deals with management. Believe me I think Kopitar and Meehan are the smart ones in this situation. It certainly isn't the fans or Kings management.

We've been over this before, but what are you doing with Kopitar? When he signed, the Kings were still 1st in the division, and he was having a good year. Where are you trading him, and for what? Is any team giving you a ton for a soon to be big money/cap hit 30 year old forward?

Trading him in after 14-15 is a no go, as that would've been selling low at the time. Obviously can't trade him after he signed, since all you're getting back are probably bad contracts to make the numbers fit.

The only time to trade Kopitar was June of 2014, when his value was at its highest. A good contract for a couple more years, coming off being the #1C for the Cup winner. That's the "year too early" scenario. Ever since then there hasn't been a good time to do it.

 

[KINGS17]

We've been over this before, but what are you doing with Kopitar? When he signed, the Kings were still 1st in the division, and he was having a good year. Where are you trading him, and for what? Is any team giving you a ton for a soon to be big money/cap hit 30 year old forward?

Trading him in after 14-15 is a no go, as that would've been selling low at the time. Obviously can't trade him after he signed, since all you're getting back are probably bad contracts to make the numbers fit.

The only time to trade Kopitar was June of 2014, when his value was at its highest. A good contract for a couple more years, coming off being the #1C for the Cup winner. That's the "year too early" scenario. Ever since then there hasn't been a good time to do it.

Already asked and answered multiple times.

 

[KINGS17]

It’s what happens in the open market. You seem to forget that someone out there is cutting these checks, and how much revenue there is in the NHL.

I don’t blame the players for getting as much as they can. Their career can be cut short in an instance, and the average career of a pro athlete is considerably shorter than any other profession.

How often do you see a UFA sign for far less than what was expected? You seem to think the players live in this fantasy world where loyalty is far more rewarding than long term stability.

Are athletes overpaid? Sure, but we’re also attending an event where the price of beer is over $10, parking is over $20, a pretzel costs $5, and having to sit around annoying fans who constantly yell “shooooot” costs almost $100 a seat. The owners and management side are just as guilty for driving up prices.

They don’t have a gun to their heads nor are they being held hostage. This is how you remain competitive in sports. It’s an arms race.

Okay, I'll amend my prior statement to say, "It certainly isn't most fans who are the smart ones in this situation."

 

[KingsFan7824]

Wait, I thought you said in an earlier post the Doughty negotiation would be similar to the Stamkos / Tampa Bay negotiation.

Am I missing something?

The idea it doesn't matter what you do, you're screwed is a fallacy. What the organization and what we do as individuals always matters. We aren't leaves whose fate is decided by some imaginary wind.

Yes, similar as in Doughty will end up re-signing, not leaving to go home like Parise. The details of exactly how Stamkos went back to Tampa aren't what I'm talking about. The Cups change the equation(just like Kane and Toews). Doughty will want the most money he can get. If he leaves money on the table to go to Toronto because that's where he can win again, then good for him. I'm just guessing that's not going to happen.

 

[KINGS17]

Yes, similar as in Doughty will end up re-signing, not leaving to go home like Parise. The details of exactly how Stamkos went back to Tampa aren't what I'm talking about. The Cups change the equation(just like Kane and Toews). Doughty will want the most money he can get. If he leaves money on the table to go to Toronto because that's where he can win again, then good for him. I'm just guessing that's not going to happen.

Okay, so you don't expect it to go as it did with Stamkos and Tampa Bay. You expect it to go as it did with Kane and Toews in Chicago...that's working out well.

 

[Fishhead]

Stamkos also had something working against him - his injury history. I have no doubt he wanted to stay in Tampa, but giving him a huge contract is a higher risk than a Kopitar or Doughty who have been very durable for the majority of their careers. I have no doubt Stamkos is a great guy and he meant what he said, but sports negotiations are very dynamic and take a lot of things into account.

The union will always be pretty strong, but I think the cap has diminished their leverage somewhat. Players are actually mindful of percentages of caps and the importance of having decent teammates. I think everyone knows what a guy like Doughty's value is, where pre-cap it would have been a free for all.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Already asked and answered multiple times.

And the only smart answer in June 2014. The whole team should've been gone then. Don't sign Gaborik, buy Richards out, don't sign Greene, trade Kopitar, trade Doughty, trade Carter. Quick should've been dealt in June of 2012(Jones might've been able to win in 2014), because now the Kings just have an older and more injury prone goalie that can't save enough shots with a more loose system played by the younger and more inexperienced players in front of him.

 

[KINGS17]

Stamkos also had something working against him - his injury history. I have no doubt he wanted to stay in Tampa, but giving him a huge contract is a higher risk than a Kopitar or Doughty who have been very durable for the majority of their careers. I have no doubt Stamkos is a great guy and he meant what he said, but sports negotiations are very dynamic and take a lot of things into account.

The union will always be pretty strong, but I think the cap has diminished their leverage somewhat. Players are actually mindful of percentages of caps and the importance of having decent teammates. I think everyone knows what a guy like Doughty's value is, where pre-cap it would have been a free for all.

You are correct Fish, Stamkos injury history did play a role in the negotiation. I think we have seen though there is always a bigger fool in the UFA tulip mania. Had Stamkos only consideration been money, he certainly could have received it somewhere else.

Good points all around made by you.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The Raiders just signed a coach to a contract that pays him $10 million per year.

You have a college football coach making $9 million per year.

These players will see their careers come to an end in their mid-to-late 30s, if they are so fortunate.

Would you fault yourself, or your kids, for asking to be compensated at market value, or more if someone out there is willing to pay you an exorbitant amount to do whatever it is you exceed at?

Look at reveled teams like people look at Apple, Amazon, Google, Netflix, etc. They pay top money for the best talent and try to assemble the best team possible to deliver a high quality product.

That's the going rate for exceptional athletes. If the Kings don't pay them, there is another team out there who will. And if the next class of elite athletes comes in, and asks for top dollars by their late 20s, you are going to let them walk and repeat that cycle?

The Penguins went on a dry spell after their Cup win in 2009. Do you think they should have considered moving Malkin, like many on HFBoards suggested they should have done for many years? Seems like hanging on to the core and retooling with some fresh new legs revitalized that team. Something the Kings could learn to do, if they could bring up some talent who can actually make a contribution at this level.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Okay, so you don't expect it to go as it did with Stamkos and Tampa Bay. You expect it to go as it did with Kane and Toews in Chicago...that's working out well.

Fine, use Kane, Toews, and Kopitar. I said Stamkos because they're from the same draft, have the same home town team, and are buddies. Use Getzlaf and Perry. Whatever big name UFA that re-signed with their team.

You're still expecting teams to do things that aren't done. Right or wrong, the vast majority of teams don't just get rid of guys. Especially teams that have won a title. It's always smarter to get rid guys of early, but very few teams do that.

Fans are fickle. You start letting guys walk out the door that won, and now you're an organization that doesn't want to win. Hell, the media is just as fickle, because that's all they would write about. Start signing guys that won to stupid contracts, and now you're too dumb to win. Or, you box yourself into such a corner that you can't win. Which is also all the media will write about as well. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It's the price you pay for success in a cap league. Without the cap, the Kings probably don't win at all. The Leafs sign Mitchell for $7m a year to be their 8th defenseman, even if he's injured. Richards/Carter are never traded from Philly so they can fit in a new goalie. The Rangers have both Nash and Gaborik.

 

[KINGS17]

The Raiders just signed a coach to a contract that pays him $10 million per year.

You have a college football coach making $9 million per year.

These players will see their careers come to an end in their mid-to-late 30s, if they are so fortunate.

Would you fault yourself, or your kids, for asking to be compensated at market value, or more if someone out there is willing to pay you an exorbitant amount to do whatever it is you exceed at?

Look at reveled teams like people look at Apple, Amazon, Google, Netflix, etc. They pay top money for the best talent and try to assemble the best team possible to deliver a high quality product.

That's the going rate for exceptional athletes. If the Kings don't pay them, there is another team out there who will. And if the next class of elite athletes comes in, and asks for top dollars by their late 20s, you are going to let them walk and repeat that cycle?

The Penguins went on a dry spell after their Cup win in 2009. Do you think they should have considered moving Malkin, like many on HFBoards suggested they should have done for many years? Seems like hanging on to the core and retooling with some fresh new legs revitalized that team. Something the Kings could learn to do, if they could bring up some talent who can actually make a contribution at this level.

Malkin was 23 years old in 2009. Your comparison is not valid at all, but many of you will continue to compare Crosby and Malkin (both generational talents), and the Pens to the Kings and Kopitar. There is no logic in this comparison.

The comparison to Apple, Amazon, Google etc. is also a fallacy. I haven't seen an engineer's performance degrade rapidly due to increased experience and the aging process which occurs from our 30's to 60's.

Again, I don't fault the players for asking for it. I fault management for giving it to them. My criticism of the players and their agents lies in the BS which is spewed about all they care about is being part of a winning organization.

Yes, if the Kings don't overpay for a player's declining performance over the last 4-5 years of their third contract some other sucker will overpay. We are in agreement on that.

 

[KINGS17]

Fine, use Kane, Toews, and Kopitar. I said Stamkos because they're from the same draft, have the same home town team, and are buddies. Use Getzlaf and Perry. Whatever big name UFA that re-signed with their team.

You're still expecting teams to do things that aren't done. Right or wrong, the vast majority of teams don't just get rid of guys. Especially teams that have won a title. It's always smarter to get rid guys of early, but very few teams do that.

Fans are fickle. You start letting guys walk out the door that won, and now you're an organization that doesn't want to win. Hell, the media is just as fickle, because that's all they would write about. Start signing guys that won to stupid contracts, and now you're too dumb to win. Or, you box yourself into such a corner that you can't win. Which is also all the media will write about as well. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It's the price you pay for success in a cap league. Without the cap, the Kings probably don't win at all. The Leafs sign Mitchell for $7m a year to be their 8th defenseman, even if he's injured. Richards/Carter are never traded from Philly so they can fit in a new goalie. The Rangers have both Nash and Gaborik.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Malkin was 23 years old in 2009. Your comparison is not valid at all, but many of you will continue to compare Crosby and Malkin (both generational talents), and the Pens to the Kings and Kopitar. There is no logic in this comparison.

The comparison to Apple, Amazon, Google etc. is also a fallacy. I haven't seen an engineer's performance degrade rapidly due to increased experience and the aging process which occurs from our 30's to 60's.

Again, I don't fault the players for asking for it. I fault management for giving it to them. My criticism of the players and their agents lies in the BS which is spewed about all they care about is being part of a winning organization.

Yes, if the Kings don't overpay for a player's declining performance over the last 4-5 years of their third contract some other sucker will overpay. We are in agreement on that.

Malkin wasn't 23 when he signed his last contract. He was in his late 20s, and that was his third contract with the Penguins.
Penguins sign Malkin to 8-year extension

There were talks and suggestions and supposed rumors of the Penguins having to move Malkin around that time and even after the extension.

Penguins GM shoots down Malkin trade rumors

I guess they should have listened to popular opinion rather than hanging on to one of their core pieces... after all, what good did it do for the Penguins?

 

[BigKing]

As far as being "irrational" towards Blake for "doing what is best for his family", that is not why some of us dislike him and is missing the point.

No problem with him wanting to get as much as possible as that is his right. Did the Kings low ball him? Sure; however, he decided to take a course of action that many fans feel was unnecessary and, at the least, not very endearing from a fans point of view.

I obviously don't care for him but I am not one of these posters that feels anybody should be taking big discounts to stay on the Kings simply because they are my favorite team or, for my favorite reason, "what's another million per year if you are already getting 10?"

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Thankfully Blake won't make the same idiotic mistake of threatening Doughty with an ultimatum if he doesn't sign for a ridiculously low offer.

 

[KINGS17]

Thankfully Blake won't make the same idiotic mistake of threatening Doughty with an ultimatum if he doesn't sign for a ridiculously low offer.

At some point in every negotiation it becomes take it or leave it.