Line Combos: 2016-2017 Kings Roster

  • Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
Status
Not open for further replies.
Again,

Muzzin Is not going to play this poorly all year, neither is Kopitar with his goal scoring drought.

LaDue...Folks pump the breaks there, he looks like your average AHL Defender, some nights, below average. He is going to be awhile.
 
There is absolutely zero chance Dean trades Muzzin or Martinez for a forward before the expansion draft. He cannot afford to lose Muzzin/Martinez in a trade and then McNabb/Forbort in the draft.

Muzzin traded and McNabb taken in draft leaves you with:

Forbort-Doughty
Martinez-Greene
Gravel-LaDue/MacDermid/free agent signing under $1.5 million

Sorry, that's an awful defense.
 
There is absolutely zero chance Dean trades Muzzin or Martinez for a forward before the expansion draft. He cannot afford to lose Muzzin/Martinez in a trade and then McNabb/Forbort in the draft.

Muzzin traded and McNabb taken in draft leaves you with:

Forbort-Doughty
Martinez-Greene
Gravel-LaDue/MacDermid/free agent signing under $1.5 million

Sorry, that's an awful defense.

Yup

LaDue also won't be ready, he is going to need another AHL season under his belt.
 
Going into this season, we were saying the defense they started with was a rebuilding type defense. Which it was. To make everything more complicated, so far this year, Muzzin has not played like a top 4 defenseman.

Muzzin, an offensive defenseman, with 81 combined points the last 2 years, is looking at a sub 20 point season, which would be fewer points than McNabb had a couple years ago.

Not saying trade Muzzin because of that, but they would be no closer to playing Greene top 4 minutes because of an injury than they were at the start of this season. Other than the play of Forbort, they would already be doing that this year.

The entire team minus Carter is having trouble scoring though, Muzzin has been inconsistent this season, but trading a guy because he's been underwhelming for less than half a season would be a knee jerk reaction that would have severe consequences in the future
 
Like I said, I think this team is a sleeping giant darkhorse. We've done what we've done in part thanks to the Sutter system (that I've been critical of) and in spite of injuries and guys having slow/off seasons at least production-wise. Between guys coming back from injury and starting to get going, we could cause some real damage. I think that's all any of us really asked this year, to be a playoff team, and one capable of being a pain.
 
Like I said, I think this team is a sleeping giant darkhorse. We've done what we've done in part thanks to the Sutter system (that I've been critical of) and in spite of injuries and guys having slow/off seasons at least production-wise. Between guys coming back from injury and starting to get going, we could cause some real damage. I think that's all any of us really asked this year, to be a playoff team, and one capable of being a pain.

Exactly! Just how about this we avoid the Sharks in the first round. Their fans were insufferable, like they won the damn cup by beating us.
 
Again,

Muzzin Is not going to play this poorly all year, neither is Kopitar with his goal scoring drought.

LaDue...Folks pump the breaks there, he looks like your average AHL Defender, some nights, below average. He is going to be awhile.

I don't think we get to say things like this anymore with that much confidence. Kopitar has already had a 16 goal season. Muzzin hasn't looked good since the playoffs last year, which includes the World Cup, where he barely played. History gives you hope, but the last two years have also caused you to never quite know with this team these days. Who expected Doughty and Muzzin to be as off as they've been to begin with?

There is absolutely zero chance Dean trades Muzzin or Martinez for a forward before the expansion draft. He cannot afford to lose Muzzin/Martinez in a trade and then McNabb/Forbort in the draft.

Muzzin traded and McNabb taken in draft leaves you with:

Forbort-Doughty
Martinez-Greene
Gravel-LaDue/MacDermid/free agent signing under $1.5 million

Sorry, that's an awful defense.

Look at their defense at the start of this season. Doughty, Muzzin, Martinez, and then a bunch of question marks. Sake of argument, Muzzin gets dealt, Forbort keeps playing well. Then it's Doughty, Forbort, Martinez, and a bunch of question marks.

With all these large contracts, most of which can't/won't be gotten rid of, they're probably going to have question marks on the roster at the start of every year for a while.

The entire team minus Carter is having trouble scoring though, Muzzin has been inconsistent this season, but trading a guy because he's been underwhelming for less than half a season would be a knee jerk reaction that would have severe consequences in the future

Right, which is why I said it doesn't necessarily mean you trade Muzzin. It doesn't matter what happens around the expansion draft, the Kings will have to deal with consequences. If they lose Dowd, now they have to find a 3rd center again. That already took a couple years. Forbort, they lose years of development, and a (still) cheap defenseman that seems to be improving. They've been looking for another top 4 guy for years. McNabb, a guy that was playing better this year, after a down year, after a fairly decent 14-15 season. Muzzin/Martinez, players just outside the core on good contracts that help make the team go.

There's no easy or good answer with the team's contract situation.
 
Muzzin is a puzzling player. At times, he can look great, then at times, you question what he is thinking (if he is even thinking at all). He can make good passes, but he can also make some stupid passes that puts himself or his teammates at risk, like the number of times he's passed the puck through the middle of the ice only to have it intercepted.

Sometimes he reminds me of guys like Darryl Sydor, Jaroslav Modry and Joe Corvo. Guys who can skate, log 20+ minutes, and make plays, but were also prone to making mistakes quite often. He runs around and tries to do way too much at times.

I also wonder if we have already seen the best out of him. Given his age, how much better is he going to get? Is he showing any signs of improvement in any areas of his game? I can't say that he has. When he was selected on Canada's World Cup team, he stood out, but not in a good way. Seemed like he was in over his head at that stage, like a deer caught in the headlights. That's kind of like how he's been playing this season as well.

I could see both sides of the argument though. Guys who can log 20+ minutes on the blueline are a valuable commodity, but I also get that protecting someone younger who may have more potential might be more pivotal, especially if moving a guy like Muzzin can garner a good haul.

I'm only in favor of moving him if the Kings can upgrade the team and still add a #4-5 dman with a right shot. Similar to what they got when they moved Rob Blake. Now Muzzin is not at that level nor will he ever be, but that type of return, which netted the team a physical top six forward and a physical, right handed dman could greatly benefit this team. It's in line with what Lombardi did when he moved Visnovsky for guys like Stoll and Greene.

I like the chemistry being displayed by Doughty and Forbort and see Forbort playing with more and more confidence. He also has a knack of getting his shots through from the point, unlike most of the other Kings dmen.

Martinez is still productive but he's struggled in his own zone, and part of the reason is that oftentimes him and his partner are not on the same page. Muzzin usually makes some errant pass that locks the team inside their own zone and they both get caught chasing guys behind the net, leaving somebody wide open in the slot. This happens often when those two are on the ice together.

I've also been disappointed by the lack of physical play in Muzzin's game. His offensive game and his defensive play is both getting away from him. He needs to step it up and show that he's worth that contract. Otherwise, I think it would make a lot of sense for the team to sell high on him before he loses more value, ala Kyle Quincey.
 
Like I said, I think this team is a sleeping giant darkhorse. We've done what we've done in part thanks to the Sutter system (that I've been critical of) and in spite of injuries and guys having slow/off seasons at least production-wise. Between guys coming back from injury and starting to get going, we could cause some real damage. I think that's all any of us really asked this year, to be a playoff team, and one capable of being a pain.

I think the Kings are a couple big pieces away from being legit contenders. Those pieces being a 100% Quick, a scoring Kopitar, and another scoring winger in addition to Toffoli, Pearson, and Gaborik contributing.

Two of those pieces won't be hard to get. That third one though is a big problem.

Look at their defense at the start of this season. Doughty, Muzzin, Martinez, and then a bunch of question marks. Sake of argument, Muzzin gets dealt, Forbort keeps playing well. Then it's Doughty, Forbort, Martinez, and a bunch of question marks.

With all these large contracts, most of which can't/won't be gotten rid of, they're probably going to have question marks on the roster at the start of every year for a while.

How many years in a row can you rely on guys coming out of no where and filling those holes though? Kings win mostly because of their defense. With a weak defense the system is pointless. They finally have 5 solid defenders after 2 years of plugging guys in from everywhere.

Forbort-Doughty
Muzzin-Martinez
McNabb-Greene, Gravel, etc, etc is a defense you can build on. A very cheap one also.
 
I don't think we get to say things like this anymore with that much confidence. Kopitar has already had a 16 goal season. Muzzin hasn't looked good since the playoffs last year, which includes the World Cup, where he barely played. History gives you hope, but the last two years have also caused you to never quite know with this team these days. Who expected Doughty and Muzzin to be as off as they've been to begin with?

I think it's fair to say that with confidence about Kopitar because we have a decade sample size to work with, and even in referencing his 16 goal season, he was shooting 2.5 times what he's shooting right now, and went nearly 2 PPG down the stretch to arrive at 64 points. So if you're referencing that, then the context tells us that saying the best is yet to come for Anze this year is entirely accurate. I mean, I'd like to think even our biggest pessimist wouldn't agree that Kopitar is going to be a 5% shooting, 45 point player from here on out.
 
I think the Kings are a couple big pieces away from being legit contenders. Those pieces being a 100% Quick, a scoring Kopitar, and another scoring winger in addition to Toffoli, Pearson, and Gaborik contributing.

Two of those pieces won't be hard to get. That third one though is a big problem.

Which is why I called them a darkhorse. I don't think we'd be going into any playoff series a favorite. Too many question marks. But at the same time, how do you 'improve' that, when it's not a matter of raw ability but just sheer performance (especially in reference to Doughty, Kopitar, Quick, Muzzin)? If they come to play, we're in any series; if they don't, we're out.
 
I wouldn't move Muzzin for anything less than a first line forward, and I still probably wouldn't do it because it would be effectively ending the teams chances at contending for a few seasons until a replacement is found. None of the younger guys are close to him right now.

Muzzin is struggling, and things aren't going right for him. His PDO is 94.77, that's pretty significant. It's crazy that Martinez has a PDO 96, things are going to normalize eventually.

Forbort and Gravel are still learning and look pretty good, especially Forbort. But the real test for those two is going to be what happens when the intensity picks up in a month or two and things get tighter and more intense. I certainly wouldn't move a top guy like Muzzin for a forward until Forbort/Gravel have proven more. As good as Forbort has looked lately, he has a high PDO and is the only sub-50 CF% D-man on the team, despite playing with Doughty. There is far to much uncertainty with both of them to trade a proven guy hoping one of them can fill that role.

The funny thing about Forbort and his Corsi is that he doesn't give up hardly any goals, and the last time I checked games were still decided on goals!!
 
Muzzin is a puzzling player. At times, he can look great, then at times, you question what he is thinking (if he is even thinking at all). He can make good passes, but he can also make some stupid passes that puts himself or his teammates at risk, like the number of times he's passed the puck through the middle of the ice only to have it intercepted.

Sometimes he reminds me of guys like Darryl Sydor, Jaroslav Modry and Joe Corvo. Guys who can skate, log 20+ minutes, and make plays, but were also prone to making mistakes quite often. He runs around and tries to do way too much at times.

I also wonder if we have already seen the best out of him. Given his age, how much better is he going to get? Is he showing any signs of improvement in any areas of his game? I can't say that he has. When he was selected on Canada's World Cup team, he stood out, but not in a good way. Seemed like he was in over his head at that stage, like a deer caught in the headlights. That's kind of like how he's been playing this season as well.

I could see both sides of the argument though. Guys who can log 20+ minutes on the blueline are a valuable commodity, but I also get that protecting someone younger who may have more potential might be more pivotal, especially if moving a guy like Muzzin can garner a good haul.

I'm only in favor of moving him if the Kings can upgrade the team and still add a #4-5 dman with a right shot. Similar to what they got when they moved Rob Blake. Now Muzzin is not at that level nor will he ever be, but that type of return, which netted the team a physical top six forward and a physical, right handed dman could greatly benefit this team. It's in line with what Lombardi did when he moved Visnovsky for guys like Stoll and Greene.

I like the chemistry being displayed by Doughty and Forbort and see Forbort playing with more and more confidence. He also has a knack of getting his shots through from the point, unlike most of the other Kings dmen.

Martinez is still productive but he's struggled in his own zone, and part of the reason is that oftentimes him and his partner are not on the same page. Muzzin usually makes some errant pass that locks the team inside their own zone and they both get caught chasing guys behind the net, leaving somebody wide open in the slot. This happens often when those two are on the ice together.

I've also been disappointed by the lack of physical play in Muzzin's game. His offensive game and his defensive play is both getting away from him. He needs to step it up and show that he's worth that contract. Otherwise, I think it would make a lot of sense for the team to sell high on him before he loses more value, ala Kyle Quincey.

I'd agree with most of that, which is why I'm not against moving him if the right move could be made. Unfortunately if you move Muzzin for two players the expansion draft could grab one of them at the end of the season. Ideally you'd acquire exempt players, but that seems quite unlikely to be able to find a fit.
 
The funny thing about Forbort and his Corsi is that he doesn't give up hardly any goals, and the last time I checked games were still decided on goals!!

I don't think we have an accurate bead on Forbort there yet anyway given last year he was crushing it too. The two small slices of sample size we have from either season are nearly polar opposites in terms of possession proxies. With doughty either season though, they have a stellar GF%...which again, how much of this is the Doughty effect with his partners over the last few years (i.e. when people were pumping Muzzin for best d-man in the league, McNabb being stellar, Forbort being stellar, etc)? Each of these guys enjoys success in their own right but Drew is the great amplfier. I think the much bigger challenge at this point is finding a mix that works as a 2nd pairing because though each one is showing at least top-4 ability with Drew they often look like a total mess without him.
 
The funny thing about Forbort and his Corsi is that he doesn't give up hardly any goals, and the last time I checked games were still decided on goals!!

The point is, do things stay the same, or does it catch up with him? It's hard to say for certain, but possession stats are about the most reliable long-term stat when it comes to predicting performance. There's too much potential for disaster to trade a guy like Muzzin and hope a Forbort can take his place.

Doughty has a lot to do with the few goals as well. It's also pretty telling when Drew's goals per 60 jump a full point when he's not with Forbort. His CF% jumps 10 points more when he is apart as well. Not to say Forbort hasn't been solid, but it's hard to say how much can be attributed to Drew.

I'm pretty excited about Forbort's play this year, but his overall numbers temper that excitement somewhat. Hopefully he keeps it up long term, the D will be very solid when McNabb comes back and acclimates.
 
Believe it or not, Forbort is outscoring Muzzin (by four points), and that's with less ice time and Muzzin gets significantly more PP ice time. He's also a +4, whereas Muzzin is a -7.

Basing performances on this season alone, can anyone really suggest that Muzzin has been the better dman? I can't.
 
Also wanted to mention something about Gravel. His defense is overlooked, IMO. He's been on the ice for 4 5v5 goals against this year. Yes, he and Greene face lesser competition at home and in general, but you can't hide guys on the road. Even taking playing time into account, he's the best on the team at 0.93 GA60 at even strength. He's quietly putting together an impressive season.
 
Muzzin is a puzzling player. At times, he can look great, then at times, you question what he is thinking (if he is even thinking at all). He can make good passes, but he can also make some stupid passes that puts himself or his teammates at risk, like the number of times he's passed the puck through the middle of the ice only to have it intercepted.

For me, it's not even about the decision making of Muzzin this year. It's not that he's thinking slow, he's moving slow. Watch him when he's skating, or not, in the d-zone. Looks like he's on 1 leg. Been that way all year. Makes me think he's playing with something bothering him. He had that back issue in junior. Hopefully that's not catching up to him.

How many years in a row can you rely on guys coming out of no where and filling those holes though? Kings win mostly because of their defense. With a weak defense the system is pointless. They finally have 5 solid defenders after 2 years of plugging guys in from everywhere.

Forbort-Doughty
Muzzin-Martinez
McNabb-Greene, Gravel, etc, etc is a defense you can build on. A very cheap one also.

I can't argue that.

They will need guys coming out of nowhere to fill holes every year though. At least as long as all these large contracts are around. They just have to find the next Voynov, Martinez, Muzzin, Toffoli, Pearson wave. That's all. Simple stuff. Because now, their veterans are quite expensive, whereas from 2010-2014, they really weren't.

I think it's fair to say that with confidence about Kopitar because we have a decade sample size to work with, and even in referencing his 16 goal season, he was shooting 2.5 times what he's shooting right now, and went nearly 2 PPG down the stretch to arrive at 64 points. So if you're referencing that, then the context tells us that saying the best is yet to come for Anze this year is entirely accurate. I mean, I'd like to think even our biggest pessimist wouldn't agree that Kopitar is going to be a 5% shooting, 45 point player from here on out.

From here on out, what? This year, or for the rest of his career? I'm just talking about the rest of this season.

All I'm saying is that in 14-15, when Kopitar had 16 goals, the Kings missed the playoffs. If he had been at his career average of 25, they probably make it that year. Those extra 10 goals are probably worth a win or two somewhere. Just to match a full season career low of 16 goals this year from right now, Kopitar will need to score at a little less than his career average. Not that he can't do it, won't do it, or won't do better than that, but it doesn't sound inspiring. Doesn't help that Gaborik has only 13 goals in his last 66 games either.

Right now, Carter is looking at tying a career high in goals, and racing past his career average. Should he slow down at some point, Lewis and King can't keep carrying the offense at 5v5 for the CF% champs. If Kopitar, and Toffoli, and Pearson, and Gaborik get going, then the Kings should have a hell of a 2nd half. It's just that the last 2 years have planted the seed of doubt. Guys are getting older. They lose games in ways they didn't before(including with Quick in net). A lot of veteran moxie has been lost between age and the cap.

All they can do is take it one game at a time.
 
What's the latest on macdermid? Looks like he's having a pretty good season in Ontario. He's still pretty young at 22. Any chance he gets a call up or makes the team next season?
 
I think Martinez has played better than Muzzin.

Anyone who plays with Doughty looks 100x better. That may have been the Muzzin curse, he put up his best stats when paired with Drew.

I haven't noticed Muzzin recently.

No way LaDue gets a shot this soon. Kings are loaded at D when McNabb comes back, even if Gilbert leaves this upcoming summer. Greene still has term.

Doughty
Forbort
Muzzin
Martinez
Gravel
McNabb
Greene

Also, it tooks Voynov and Forbort each about 3-4 seasons in the AHL to make it to the NHL.
 
The point is, do things stay the same, or does it catch up with him? It's hard to say for certain, but possession stats are about the most reliable long-term stat when it comes to predicting performance. There's too much potential for disaster to trade a guy like Muzzin and hope a Forbort can take his place.

Doughty has a lot to do with the few goals as well. It's also pretty telling when Drew's goals per 60 jump a full point when he's not with Forbort. His CF% jumps 10 points more when he is apart as well. Not to say Forbort hasn't been solid, but it's hard to say how much can be attributed to Drew.

I'm pretty excited about Forbort's play this year, but his overall numbers temper that excitement somewhat. Hopefully he keeps it up long term, the D will be very solid when McNabb comes back and acclimates.

Right this moment, Forbort is basically Scuderi with offensive instincts. Defensive defenseman CF%. I'm actually saying that as a compliment even though I agree the bottom tends to fall out on guys who suck at possession, but I think those numbers are an aberration that don't seem to match the eye test. It's hard to ignore his GF% (also DD influenced, of course), but he's also getting cushy zone starts. Again, numbers that don't jive with his play, I believe what I'm seeing in Forbort, and I'm eager to see if he an do anything positive away from Doughty as our REAL problem on defense is it appears we have a load of 2nd pairing guys that struggle to TRULY be a 2nd-pair-carrying #3 d-man.

Believe it or not, Forbort is outscoring Muzzin (by four points), and that's with less ice time and Muzzin gets significantly more PP ice time. He's also a +4, whereas Muzzin is a -7.

Basing performances on this season alone, can anyone really suggest that Muzzin has been the better dman? I can't.

I can't. But I don't think you can ignore history. It's much easier to suggest Muzzin is struggling/slumping than it is that Forbort is instantly better. Muzzin is also playing a tougher role.

What's the latest on macdermid? Looks like he's having a pretty good season in Ontario. He's still pretty young at 22. Any chance he gets a call up or makes the team next season?

Next season? I'm sure he gets a look at camp but as a nasty bottom pairing guy i dont' think he's a full timer until Greene is gone. Even then MacD is LHD IIRC. He does look like he's learning every game though, dude is a sponge, and legit nasty, which is something missing from the Kings lately, for better or for worse.
 
What's the latest on macdermid? Looks like he's having a pretty good season in Ontario. He's still pretty young at 22. Any chance he gets a call up or makes the team next season?

Something happened with MacDermid, he has now become a beast. Seemed like he always had size and could throw the big hit, but this year he looks like a monster.

I would not be surprised to see him takeover for Matt Greene.
 
So with Toffoli on IR and McNabb nearing a return, there are two options:

Sutter rolls with 8 D, which he clearly isn't against;

Gravel gets sent down with McNabb's activation, and we call up a forward from Ontario. Mersch? Kempe? Brodzinski?
 
So with Toffoli on IR and McNabb nearing a return, there are two options:

Sutter rolls with 8 D, which he clearly isn't against;

Gravel gets sent down with McNabb's activation, and we call up a forward from Ontario. Mersch? Kempe? Brodzinski?

I think Gravel getting sent down is guaranteed. He is waiver exempt and Sutter is not going to play him over McNabb. Also Greene and Gilbert rotating in and out for the bottom pairing right hand spot seems to be working.

I hope they call up Kempe and give him a shot. Might as well see what he has got playing with more talented players.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad