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2016-2017 Kings Roster Talk Part IV

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eyjee said:
Have a quick question. If you could describe Sutter's offensive system, how would you? There is a poster on the Rangers section that is very adamant that your system is to dump the puck into the corner, retrieve it, and set up shop from there. His analysis is that this puts you guys in a position to constantly be facing 5-man units of defense against you, because you give the opposition time to set up, and that's why you've had some goal-scoring issues this year.

I don't watch enough of your games to have a full grasp if this is correct or not.

Apologies if this is in the wrong place, but I didn't think it worthy enough to start a whole new thread on this.

Thanks.
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It's totally correct from our end to the other. We rarely take a chance to break out quickly in transition. More often than not, we cycle the puck back to do a controlled breakout, giving the opposition time to set up their D (which frequently leads to a 5-man net between blue line and red line), forcing us to dump it in, chase it, MAYBE get it back, then hold it for a long time before taking a shot. The other problem is we don't keep the D honest frequently enough by 'taking chances' by centering a pass to the front of the net or passing across the slot because that would result in ceding possession; thus, teams can just sit in the middle and wait for us if they don't want to engage on the wall. The Kings' system encourages the opposition to play passive defense and aggressive chance-taking offense so it's boring as **** in the regular season because they don't force the issue like they have to against great, aggressive teams in the playoffs.
 
Raccoon Jesus said:
It's totally correct from our end to the other. We rarely take a chance to break out quickly in transition. More often than not, we cycle the puck back to do a controlled breakout, giving the opposition time to set up their D (which frequently leads to a 5-man net between blue line and red line), forcing us to dump it in, chase it, MAYBE get it back, then hold it for a long time before taking a shot. The other problem is we don't keep the D honest frequently enough by 'taking chances' by centering a pass to the front of the net or passing across the slot because that would result in ceding possession; thus, teams can just sit in the middle and wait for us if they don't want to engage on the wall. The Kings' system encourages the opposition to play passive defense and aggressive chance-taking offense so it's boring as **** in the regular season because they don't force the issue like they have to against great, aggressive teams in the playoffs.
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That's interesting. If you'll indulge me... I've seen a few LAK games this year, not enough to be deeply knowledgeable of the system, but, it didn't seem like this. It seemed like a more chaotic, fire from anywhere sort of thing.

I'm going to use some advanced stats now, I hope that's okay...

What's interesting about this, to me, is that LAK is 2nd in the league in shot attempts per 60, 7th in the league in rush shots for, and 3rd in the league in rebound shots for.

This sort of matches the 5 or so LAK games I've seen this year. It seemed a little more like "structured chaos" than this.

Anyway, obviously defer to you guys here on the board as you're more intimately aware of what is going on out there.
 
I'm ready for some drastic moves (NHL 17 style) to get younger and reload.

1) Fire Sutter and not resign Lombardi

2) Trade: Carter and Muzzin to Montreal for Galchenyuk + Scherbak + Juulsen + 2017 1st

3) Trade: Martinez to Detroit for Tatar

4) Trade: Clifford to Boston for K. Miller

5) Talk Vegas into taking Gaborik/Brown in the expansion draft using Mtl 1st + LA 3rd pick (can throw in shore if need be). Trade picks at prospects draft for conditional pick or a player picked up in expansion draft.

6) Expansion draft protection (7-3-1): (Don't need to really protect anyone because of Vegas deal)

F: Kopitar, Toffoli, Pearson, Galchenyuk, Tatar, Lewis, Brodz
D: Doughty, Forbort, McNabb
G: Quick

Tatar--Kopitar--Toffoli
Pearson--Galchenyuk--Brodz
Brown/Gaborik--Kempe--Scherbak
Mersch--Dowd--Lewis
Shore, Nolan

McNabb--Doughty
Forbort--LaDue
Gravel--Miller
XXX

Quick
XXX

Going to be a painful year but worth it to get younger and some cap space.
 
SettlementRichie10 said:
I feel like we've been saying this for three years.
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I think it ties into what Raccoon said above. We haven't been successful since this team stopped pushing the play from the defense. Everything seems measured and scripted now, and the other team can adjust easily. When the puck was quickly up on the forwards' sticks, the other team usually wasn't set and there were, believe it or not, options. Teams didn't know if there was going to be a dump, or a carry-in, or a cross-ice pass, or a pass back to the point after carrying the zone.

When things are predictable, it's easy to be snakebit, because even if it's a glorious chance, the shot or play has to be near perfect because the other team knows what's coming. It's why we see so many posts and what-not, goalies are already in position most of the time. When the puck is moving quickly and the other team is having to work hard to read the play, well, it's obvious shots don't have to be as perfect if you have the opposition scrambling. Getting defenses running around was a trademark of this team when they were successful.

The lack of good transition is what makes the Kings seem so slow. Some of that stems from having a young defense. Some of it also stems from players not executing. As much as we rail on the system sometimes here, I don't think the system is the problem at all. It's the voice that no longer can get the buy-in from the guys on the ice.
 
Fishhead said:
I think it ties into what Raccoon said above. We haven't been successful since this team stopped pushing the play from the defense. Everything seems measured and scripted now, and the other team can adjust easily. When the puck was quickly up on the forwards' sticks, the other team usually wasn't set and there were, believe it or not, options. Teams didn't know if there was going to be a dump, or a carry-in, or a cross-ice pass, or a pass back to the point after carrying the zone.

When things are predictable, it's easy to be snakebit, because even if it's a glorious chance, the shot or play has to be near perfect because the other team knows what's coming. It's why we see so many posts and what-not, goalies are already in position most of the time. When the puck is moving quickly and the other team is having to work hard to read the play, well, it's obvious shots don't have to be as perfect if you have the opposition scrambling. Getting defenses running around was a trademark of this team when they were successful.

The lack of good transition is what makes the Kings seem so slow. Some of that stems from having a young defense. Some of it also stems from players not executing. As much as we rail on the system sometimes here, I don't think the system is the problem at all. It's the voice that no longer can get the buy-in from the guys on the ice.
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Very well put although I do think the system has become predictable as well. We don't have that heavy team to pen opposition in and wear them down leading to mistakes on their end. Every NHL team with any type of video and scouting department has had years to study and find kinks in our armour and exploit that. Time for a new coach that can tweak our system to get rid of the pop gun offence. The talent is there.
 
Goal differential by period since 11-12:

13-14, 1st period, +17
14-15, 3rd period, +14
15-16, 2nd period, +13
13-14, 3rd period, +13
11-12, 2nd period, +12
16-17, 3rd period, +12
15-16, 1st period, +10
12-13, 2nd period, +10
14-15, 2nd period, +8
11-12, 1st period, +7
12-13, 3rd period, +6
14-15, 1st period, +5
11-12, 3rd period, +2
12-13, 1st period, +1
15-16, 3rd period, -1
13-14, 2nd period, -2
16-17, 2nd period, -6
16-17, 1st period, -14

13-14 total, +28
14-15 total, +27(will always be the biggest what if season)
15-16 total, +22
11-12 total, +21
12-13 total, +17
16-17 total, -8

+26 in 1st periods
+35 in 2nd periods
+46 in 3rd periods

Imperfect stat and all that, but 3 of the 4 worst +/- ratings in the last 6 years are from this season. Martinez -12, Dowd -17, and Muzzin -18. Brown with a -17(from of course, the 14-15 season) is the other one. Kopitar with a -9, which is his worst in this 6 year time period. The other time he was in minus territory? Take a wild guess if you don't know.

That damn 14-15 season. Tied for 4th overall in regulation wins. Tied for 5th overall in regulation losses. 1 more regulation win, and 1 less regulation loss, than Chicago. But, they were 1-7 in 4v4 OT, and 2-8 in the SO.

% of games the Kings scored first in:
13-14, 52/82, .634
11-12, 45/82, .549
12-13, 26/48, .542
15-16, 44/82, .537
14-15, 41/82, .500
16-17, 31/77, .403

The average there is .528, so between both Quick missing 5 months, and Kopitar having a career low in goals, assists, and points, at the same time as each other, it's tough to overcome that. One or the other, ok, you might be able to manage. When Quick went down in 13-14, Jones and Scrivens ended up with a combined .933sv%. That was with a defense that was coming off a Cup and a conference final the previous 2 years. Budaj was good this year, but not .933sv% good, and this year's defense, at no time, was the same as what they had in 13-14.
 
Team no longer has the personal to make the Kings system work.

The core is too old, and the Drafting has failed.
 
KingCanadain1976 said:
lol we added gravel ladue forbort dowd brodzinski and kempe this year and our drafting has failed Only on hf can a team add 6 players they drafted to the team and a fan blames the drafting :help:
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I'll clarify that statement:

So far, it's failed to add players that can make the system work. Hence one playoff win in the past (soon to be)three seasons.

That's a failure to add impact players, no matter how you slice it.

Next season, if the younger guys step up and provide the depth needed, then we can talk about the drafting not being so bad.

But so far, it's provided zilch since 2012.
 
damacles1156 said:
I'll clarify that statement:

So far, it's failed to add players that can make the system work. Hence one playoff win in the past (soon to be)three seasons.
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Its not the drafting you should be blaming Its the non use of said draft picks at appropriate times. Your blaming the scouting when its Dean (for trading higher picks) and sutter for use of young players that need the blame not the scouting

Now your last edit * is closer to being something i can agree with Impact players thru the draft again near impossible to find when your drafting where we are. Again more of a dean trades fault then our scouts but closer to something i can agree with.

Your 3rd edit I agree with the young players need to step up abit more Looking at kempe Brodzinski and the d However they needed this experience to get them ready to step up You said none of the forwards were ready and i say that the earlier you get them here for a cup of coffee the better. Give them some time up to see what they need to work on then send them down to work on it while another gets a cup.
 
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KingCanadain1976 said:
Its not the drafting you should be blaming Its the non use of said draft picks at appropriate times. Your blaming the scouting when its Dean (for trading higher picks) and sutter for use of young players that need the blame not the scouting
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Everyone knows that's the price you pay for Trading picks, and chasing cups.

Still, your Drafting department has to add more, if you want to sustain.

Sutter plays youth, Stop perpetuating this myth.

Muzzin/King/Ladue/Kempe/A-Mart/Toffoli/Clifford/
Nolan/Mersch/Shore/Dowd/(Hell Frattin for Christ sake).
Pearson/McNabb/Forbort/Gravel/Andy/Slava.

ALL played as rookies or youth under Sutter. That's more than half the damn roster.

People really need to stop with that stupid myth about Sutter.
 
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Has anyone heard about how Valeri Nichushkin is doing in the KHL and if he would come back to the NHL. Would Dallas trade his rights? I think he could be a good young player who would fit with the Kings. He's big, can skate and was a 1st round pick in 2013, I believe. He has lots of talent but seemed not to be a good fit in Dallas. Thoughts?
 
damacles1156 said:
Everyone knows that's the price you pay for Trading picks, and chasing cups.

Still, your Drafting department has to add more.

Sutter plays youth, Stop perpetuating this myth.

Muzzin/King/Ladue/Kempe/A-Mart/Toffoli/Clifford/
Nolan/Mersch/Shore/Dowd/(Hell Frattin for Christ sake).
Pearson/McNabb/Forbort/Gravel.

ALL played as rookies or youth under Sutter. That's more than half the damn roster.

People really need to stop with that stupid myth about Sutter.
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I'm not saying he doesn't play them They get in the lineup however playing them the minutes they need is where i have the issue. They need to play mins to get them thru the rookie mistake stage This is where sutter doesn't play them A mistake and there mins our cut or they sit A top 6 forward need to play top 6 mins Michael mersch comes to mind he got a average of around 10 mins which is crap for a top 6 players development.
 
KingCanadain1976 said:
I'm not saying he doesn't play them They get in the lineup however playing them the minutes they need is where i have the issue. They need to play mins to get them thru the rookie mistake stage This is where sutter doesn't play them A mistake and there mins our cut or they sit A top 6 forward need to play top 6 mins Michael mersch comes to mind he got a average of around 10 mins which is crap for a top 6 players development.
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Toffoli and Pearson have played the vast majority of their NHL career's under Sutter, in a top six role.

Sutter put Slava in a top 4 role right away, same with Muzzin/McNabb

Again a complete myth you are perpetuating.
 
damacles1156 said:
Toffoli and Pearson have played the vast majority of their NHL career's under Sutter, in a top six role.

Sutter put Slava in a top 4 role right away, same with Muzzin/McNabb

Again a complete myth you are perpetuating.
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AHH go back and look again Pearson was getting less mins then king and lucic /gaborik/ whoever use was lw in his first 2 years.

Slava went up and down at least 2 before he was moved up full time again He had his trial period.

Again your memory isnt telling the whole story waits for your editing now


edit toffolis first couple years 3r rw behind brown and williams
 
KingCanadain1976 said:
AHH go back and look again Pearson was getting less mins then king and lucic /gaborik/ whoever use was lw in his first 2 years.

Slava went up and down at least 2 before he was moved up full time again He had his trial period.

Again your memory isnt telling the whole story waits for your editing now
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Pearson was injured for an entire season basically(broken leg), after he can back healthy(full) he rarely left the top six, and is a permanent fixture there now.

Salva never left Mitchell's side once he was brought up after Jack was traded. The only reason Slava went down in 2012-13 (lock out season) had nothing to do with Sutter.

Again a myth you are creating out of thin air.
 
Toffli and Pearson have played the most minutes with Carter/Kopitar(as their Centers).

You have to go all the way back to 13-14 season to see Toffoli/Pearson have 17.9% of their shifts with Jarret Stoll.

The third line.
 
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