2016-2017 Kings Roster Talk Part III

[PJ Kings Hockey]

Are these conditions confirmed? We've been trying to figure them out on the Avs board and whatever the specifics are it seems Iginla needs to win the Stanley Cup, the Kentucky Derby and American Idol before we get a pick, but it'd be nice to know for sure.

 

[Cook24]

Our defense next season is gonna be pretty cheap yet still solid. Assuming we really do bring Voynov back...


Forbort-Doughty
Muzzin-Voynov
Gravel-Ladue
Mcnabb or MacDermid

That defense has a total cap hit of only 17-18 mil...

 

[Omni Owl]

Our defense next season is gonna be pretty cheap yet still solid. Assuming we really do bring Voynov back...


Forbort-Doughty
Muzzin-Voynov
Gravel-Ladue
Mcnabb or MacDermid

That defense has a total cap hit of only 17-18 mil...

Martinez? And yea, the young guys on D have played better than expected, especially Forbort. Not bad for some rookies in the big league.

 

[PJ Kings Hockey]

Yeah, I don't think it's likely Voynov plays for the Kings again. Personally, I don't want to be ashamed I was ever a Kings fan because that would end my fandom right there. I think management is smart enough to realize the stain of that on their reputation would never go away. (There are a lot more adults and children out there who have experienced the physical and emotional trauma of domestic violence than you think.) Maybe they're hoping to trade him to David Poile.

I see LaDue as the 2nd pair RHD.

 

[ScoreZeGoals]

Way too premature to be penciling Voyov in, I have serious doubts he ever plays in the NHL again

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

Way too premature to be penciling Voyov in, I have serious doubts he ever plays in the NHL again

I doubt he ever plays for the Kings again. I think eventually he'll make his way back to the NHL but his contract will have expired with the Kings.

 

[Stimpythecat]

Voynov is still under the entry ban. The Immigration and Nationality Act considers a no contest plea to be the same as a conviction. He would have to apply for a waiver which takes 6 months or so and then reapply for a work visa.

Once in the US, he would still be subject to suspension by the NHL. He will never play for the Kings again and I'm good with that.

 

[Bandit]

Voynov is still under the entry ban. The Immigration and Nationality Act considers a no contest plea to be the same as a conviction. He would have to apply for a waiver which takes 6 months or so and then reapply for a work visa.

Once in the US, he would still be subject to suspension by the NHL. He will never play for the Kings again and I'm good with that.

Yup. Don't ever want to see him back with us.

 

[Kingsfan1]

I'd welcome Voynov back with open arms if management does .

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'd welcome Voynov back with open arms if management does .

Or the US government?

 

[Kingsfan1]

[NHL2][/NHL2]

Or the US government?

Well I've always been a little confused about this. Since Voynov left the country on his own terms I feel as though his case might be in limbo considering the fact it wasn't pursued and has it really been stated that the US government was going to deploy him?

 

[King'sPawn]

So what top six players have they drafted then? You still won't go far with that list. Then look at the percentage of how many selections they've had for over a decade. It's very low.

Of the 46 forwards the Kings have drafted the following forwards still playing in the NHL:
Wayne Simmonds
Trevor Lewis
Dwight King
Brayden Schenn
Kyle Clifford
Jordan Nolan
Nic Dowd
Nicolas Deslauriers
Tyler Toffoli
Jordan Weal
Andy Andreoff
Nick Shore
Tanner Pearson
Hudson Fasching
Adrian Kempe

They also drafted Linden Vey and Andrei Loktionov who played in the NHL, but aren't anymore.

That's 15 NHL forwards currently in the NHL. Nearly 33% hit rate. Toffoli, Pearson, Simmonds, Schenn are definite top 6 forwards, an 8.7% hit rate. Who knows how players like Kempe, Amadio, Brodzinski, and Mersch will develop, but I don't want to be disingenuous and count potential as actual.

But let's look at the Tampa Bay Lightning. They've drafted 47 forwards. The following forwards are all current NHLers:
Alex Killorn
Steven Stamkos
Richard Panik
Brett Connolly
Vladislav Namestnikov
Nikita Kucherov
Ondrej Palat
Cedric Paquette
Jonathan Drouin
Adam Erne
Brayden Point

Joel Vermin played in the NHL earlier this season, but currently in the AHL

12/47 NHL forwards, a bit above 25%. Lower volume of NHLers, although they draft more boom-or-bust prospects, so they have a higher volume of top six forwards.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I didn't have trouble reading at all. You've been presented with a list of players over and over and over ad nauseum yet you try to derail damn near every thread on this forum with drafting rants that are barely tangential to the subject. Feel free to take it to the roster discussion thread or a prospect thread as this is a Kubalik thread. Stay on topic.

Lies. Nobody has done such a thing. You guys just make excuses for their inability to load the team up with talent. I'm not moving goal posts. There's barely anything in Ontario or in juniors that falls into that category. It's like the era of Yanick Lehoux and Jared Aulin being considered top prospects.

Toffoli (2010) and Pearson (2012), are the lone top six forwards these scouts have supplied the team with. Simmonds was never a top six forward in LA, so it's up to you if you want to make that claim. Seemed like they were set on him being an elite checking line winger along with Handzus and Frolov.

They also never gave him any ice time on the PP so that didn't exactly show they had any confidence in his abilities as a top six forward. Same with Schenn, who only appeared in 9 games with the Kings and 12 games with the Monarchs (including playoffs). It wasn't until last season where he lived up to his draft position, but lets include him as well.

That's it. That is four names, out of how many draft selections? I'm not asking how many Cliffords or Andreoffs this team has drafted. This organization and its scouts raved about Zykov and traded up to select him. They identified him as a terrific prospect. What happened there?

If you're going to praise these guys and give them so much credit for when they're right, why can't you do the same and admit when they're wrong? Why are you guys so defensive and against any criticism? The team keeps having to sign journeymen thanks in part to the fact that there are barely any forwards that are being developed.

The number of role players and stiffs that they've found far outweighs the number of talent that can complete a tape to tape pass. I appreciate what guys like Lewis and Nolan bring to this team, but I can also admit that there are so many redundant players in this organization like Andreoff and Clifford, and I can't see any reason why these guys were selected where they were. Or that Christopher Gibson selection, before Nikita Kucherov. I guess he wasn't as impressive as Valentin Zykov to make them trade up to draft him.

 

[King'sPawn]

Lies. Nobody has done such a thing. You guys just make excuses for their inability to load the team up with talent. I'm not moving goal posts. There's barely anything in Ontario or in juniors that falls into that category. It's like the era of Yanick Lehoux and Jared Aulin being considered top prospects.

Toffoli (2010) and Pearson (2012), are the lone top six forwards these scouts have supplied the team with. Simmonds was never a top six forward in LA, so it's up to you if you want to make that claim. Seemed like they were set on him being an elite checking line winger along with Handzus and Frolov.

They also never gave him any ice time on the PP so that didn't exactly show they had any confidence in his abilities as a top six forward. Same with Schenn, who only appeared in 9 games with the Kings and 12 games with the Monarchs (including playoffs). It wasn't until last season where he lived up to his draft position, but lets include him as well.

That's it. That is four names, out of how many draft selections? I'm not asking how many Cliffords or Andreoffs this team has drafted. This organization and its scouts raved about Zykov and traded up to select him. They identified him as a terrific prospect. What happened there?

If you're going to praise these guys and give them so much credit for when they're right, why can't you do the same and admit when they're wrong? Why are you guys so defensive and against any criticism? The team keeps having to sign journeymen thanks in part to the fact that there are barely any forwards that are being developed.

The number of role players and stiffs that they've found far outweighs the number of talent that can complete a tape to tape pass. I appreciate what guys like Lewis and Nolan bring to this team, but I can also admit that there are so many redundant players in this organization like Andreoff and Clifford, and I can't see any reason why these guys were selected where they were. Or that Christopher Gibson selection, before Nikita Kucherov. I guess he wasn't as impressive as Valentin Zykov to make them trade up to draft him.

Judging a team's scouting ability by the number of top six NHL forwards, and only top six NHL forwards they draft, is unreasonable.

Kubalik is apparently a highly skilled player leading a professional league in goals, but because he lacked the character to stick to the NHL route, he doesn't count. But you criticize the Kings scouts for picking character players. Many of the NHL forwards the Kings have are still developing.

There's a difference between saying the Kings need to draft more top six talent and saying the Kings are incapable of evaluating top six talent.

 

[King'sPawn]

The number of role players and stiffs that they've found far outweighs the number of talent that can complete a tape to tape pass. I appreciate what guys like Lewis and Nolan bring to this team, but I can also admit that there are so many redundant players in this organization like Andreoff and Clifford, and I can't see any reason why these guys were selected where they were. Or that Christopher Gibson selection, before Nikita Kucherov. I guess he wasn't as impressive as Valentin Zykov to make them trade up to draft him.

I was giving this paragraph some thought as well. I figure I'd show that even the indomitable Tampa Bay Lightning make mistakes relative to who the Kings draft.

In 2006, they drafted Riku Helenius #15 overall ahead of Trevor Lewis #17 overall.
In 2007, they drafted Dana Tyrell #47 ahead of Simmonds at #61. Luca i #75 overall instead of Martinez at #95 overall. Mitch Fadden at #107 ahead of Dwight King at #109.
In 2008, they drafted Dustin Tokarski at #122 instead of Loktionov at #123.
In 2009, they drafted Carter Ashton at #29 ahead of Kyle Clifford at #35. They drafted Alex Hutchings at #93 instead of J-F Berube at #95 or Linden Vey at #96.
In 2010, they drafted Brett Connolly at #9 instead of Forbort at #15 and Tyler Toffoli at #47. Brock Beukeboom at #63 ahead of Jordan Weal at #70. Geoffrey Schemitsch at #96 and Jimmy Mullin at #118 ahead of Kevin Gravel at #148.
In 2012, they drafted Slater Koekkoek at #10 ahead of Tanner Pearson at #30. Dylan Blujus at #40, Brian Hart at #53, and Tanner Richard at #71 ahead of Colin Miller at #151.

So... yeah. They may have drafted a couple more top six players than the Kings, but they also missed on some players that the Kings pegged.

 

[AlphaBravo]

This season is clearly a wash. I love Sutter and I think his system is great, but when nearly the entire team is under performing and almost all the top players are on scoring droughts, you have no choice but to change coaches since you can't trade the entire team. We are fortunate to have a few days off until the Nashville game, and its a perfect time to make a coaching change.

Ideally, I would prefer to do it in the off season, but I think it is better to do it now to see what John Stevens has to offer. He has been waiting in line for this position, and the remaining games will be a great audition for him. If the team responds and there is a noticeable upswing in their play (even if they miss the playoffs) he can have the starting job when the new season opens. If not, and its same old Sutter hockey, then DL can bring in a new coach.

The last few games are also a good opportunity for Brodzinsky to get some NHL experience. I hope they call him up, and push Iginla to the fourth line because he has been absolutely terrible.

Lastly, looking at the cap numbers for next season, prepare to see an even worse Kings squad. Because Pearson and Toffoli will likely be resigned for around $10MM, we have no room for a top 6 winger even if we trade Martinez or Muzzin. With the Brown and Gaborik contracts untradeable, we can either be mediocre until they are off the books or just do a full rebuild.

I would keep Toffoli, Pearson, Kempe, Dowd, Shore, LaDue, Gravel, Doughty, and Forbort. Trade Carter in the offseason while his value his high for prospects and high draft picks. I would keep Kopitar for another season and pray that his play picks up and trade him (assuming he consents due to NMC) for prospects and high draft picks. Muzzin and Martinez should also be kept until next year's trade deadline so that their improved play increases their value.

 

[LAKings88]

wrong thread

 

[KingsFan7824]

He also traded a recent 2nd round pick for a rental goalie when the Kings, at this rate, aren't making the playoffs. King, Bishop, and Iginla becoming UFAs at the end of this season are essentially zeroed out. As far as future assets for this deadline, he traded:
2015 2nd round pick (Cernak)
2017 7th round pick

for a
2018 4th round pick
2017 5th round pick

That's not sell, sell, sell-ing.

It depends on how you want to look at the trade. We're not in the office, so we don't know exactly how it all comes together, but you can say the Kings traded Budaj and a conditional pick for Bishop as one part of the trade, and Cernak and a 7th for a 5th as the other part of the trade. If someone thinks Cernak is worth not making that move, ok.

Cernak was a 2nd round pick. Jens Karlsson was a 1st rounder. Daigle was the 1st overall pick. If the draft was a science, the final results would be a little more accurate. It's all over the place though. 7th rounders can be all-stars. 1st rounders can never play a game. About 1 out of every 3 guys taken in a 2nd round will play more than 1 NHL season.

This season is clearly a wash. I love Sutter and I think his system is great, but when nearly the entire team is under performing and almost all the top players are on scoring droughts, you have no choice but to change coaches since you can't trade the entire team. We are fortunate to have a few days off until the Nashville game, and its a perfect time to make a coaching change.

It's not though. It's mostly Kopitar, Toffoli, and Muzzin.

There's also really no reason to think Sutter is going to be let go before Thursday. You'll just be more disappointed when it doesn't happen.

Lastly, looking at the cap numbers for next season, prepare to see an even worse Kings squad. Because Pearson and Toffoli will likely be resigned for around $10MM, we have no room for a top 6 winger even if we trade Martinez or Muzzin. With the Brown and Gaborik contracts untradeable, we can either be mediocre until they are off the books or just do a full rebuild.

Agreed. I'm seeing basically the same roster as this year, but then I remember thinking the same thing back in May of 2011. Never know what can happen.

I would keep Toffoli, Pearson, Kempe, Dowd, Shore, LaDue, Gravel, Doughty, and Forbort. Trade Carter in the offseason while his value his high for prospects and high draft picks. I would keep Kopitar for another season and pray that his play picks up and trade him (assuming he consents due to NMC) for prospects and high draft picks. Muzzin and Martinez should also be kept until next year's trade deadline so that their improved play increases their value.

Prospects and picks for Kopitar? Who is taking his $10m cap hit for prospects and picks? Who even could? That cap hit ends in 2024, and no team that is a position to pick high is going to do it.

The time to trade Kopitar was at the 2015 draft. He's not going anywhere now.

 

[King'sPawn]

It depends on how you want to look at the trade. We're not in the office, so we don't know exactly how it all comes together, but you can say the Kings traded Budaj and a conditional pick for Bishop as one part of the trade, and Cernak and a 7th for a 5th as the other part of the trade. If someone thinks Cernak is worth not making that move, ok.

Cernak was a 2nd round pick. Jens Karlsson was a 1st rounder. Daigle was the 1st overall pick. If the draft was a science, the final results would be a little more accurate. It's all over the place though. 7th rounders can be all-stars. 1st rounders can never play a game. About 1 out of every 3 guys taken in a 2nd round will play more than 1 NHL season.

So again... he didn't sell. He bought. And he acquired a longshot pick that would make the NHL.

I know the unlikelihood of 2nd rounders making the NHL. 33% chance to make the NHL is higher than the entire team which has underperformed and lacked emotional leadership from making the playoffs.

 

[KingsFan7824]

So again... he didn't sell. He bought. And he acquired a longshot pick that would make the NHL.

I know the unlikelihood of 2nd rounders making the NHL. 33% chance to make the NHL is higher than the entire team which has underperformed and lacked emotional leadership from making the playoffs.

Basically traded King for Iginla and a pick, which is a sell. Traded Budaj and a conditional pick for Bishop, which is exchanging one UFA goalie for another, so not really a buy or sell unless the conditions are met. Cernak and a 7th for a 5th is on the buy side.

I might even say Lombardi didn't do a whole lot of anything, either way. Shuffled the chairs at most. There wasn't and isn't anyone on the roster to sell in the traditional deadline sense, and there was no cap room or prospect depth to buy anyone in that same sense.

 

[Johnny Utah]

I think the Kings are going to pull something here. If they lose McNabb or Forbort maybe they then try and bring Voynov back? It would be in their best interest to wait after expansion.

Then we could have...

Doughty-Forbort
Muzzin-Voynov
Martinez-Ladue
Gravel

Kings have some leverage at D even if they don't bring Voynov back. When healthy we have 7 solid d. Let's say we lose McNabb I foresee MacDermind stepping in- he is a beast and would be third pairing with LaDue.

 

[HookKing]

Folks, there is no more Voynov. Kings will likely go 4/4 in the expansion draft if no deal beforehand. So what would you offer Vegas to take McNabb? Instead of Lewis or Dowd. Would you offer up a Muzzin or Martinez if we got something coming back? If Kempe can play center next year losing Dowd isn't the end of the world. If I were DL I would offer both Martinez and McNabb for a shutdown RHD + picks if needed to round it out.

Then you have -

Doughty/Forbert
Muzzin/LaDue
RHD/Gravel

 

[PJ Kings Hockey]

Brodzinski is injured. We haven't heard the timetable for his return. The game where Mersch came back is when Jonny got injured.

 

[The Tikkanen]

Folks, there is no more Voynov. Kings will likely go 4/4 in the expansion draft if no deal beforehand. So what would you offer Vegas to take McNabb? Instead of Lewis or Dowd. Would you offer up a Muzzin or Martinez if we got something coming back? If Kempe can play center next year losing Dowd isn't the end of the world. If I were DL I would offer both Martinez and McNabb for a shutdown RHD + picks if needed to round it out.

Then you have -

Doughty/Forbert
Muzzin/LaDue
RHD/Gravel

Why would you be worried about losing Lewis or Dowd?

 

[YP44]

why all the voynov talk? can we just let that die, he is not coming back and if he does it will be with a different team. LA will trade his rights but it will be for peanuts. People should not be expecting him an LA lineup and if for some reason he ever does then it would just be an added bonus