Salary Cap: 2016-17 roster-building part IV | Contract chart, cap info in post #1

[KIRK]

Your point must have changed if I made your point. I said he was also nearly elite with Jokinen and Neal. The common thread in both of those seasons was Neal. Also, with no Sid for most of Geno's MVP season, Geno got tons of ice time and opportunity.

Also, Kunitz was a really good player back then. His style of play meshed with them, but he was also much better than Kulemin is today and Neal is an elite sniper. I certainly don't think we have the ability to bring in a better sniper than Neal to offset the difference in quality between Kulemin and Kunitz.

In general, my point is that Malkin needs better hockey players. I think most great lines around the league succeed by similar factors. One grinder type, one playmaker, and one goal scorer or some combination of the 3. Those aren't unique characteristics to a Malkin line. That's called building balanced skillsets. Chemistry and comfort is a big part of that too, but I think you are making too many assumptions that Kulemin and Malkin will have instant chemistry that makes Kulemin a better player than he's been in the past 5 years.

I think you're making assumptions about what I'm assuming.

I'm saying JR needs to do better by Malkin next year, and I suspect he will. Hey, I'd love JVR, because he kind of combines those assets we're describing, but failing that I wonder if a limited gamble on Kulemin makes more sense than a 5 x 25 type deal on the guys who are frequently mentioned in these threads. I said several times I do NOT KNOW how it will play out. I've suggested the chemistry thing may make it the smarter gamble.

You know, sometimes some people spitball a little in threads. Words like 'not sure' that precede a 'this is how one could look at it' type of argument do not mean 'well, this is absolutely how it will play out'.

As for the more generic puck retriever versus sniper thing, of course both make for a line. For Sid, the guy who can make a play probably is more valuable. For Geno, it's the puck retriever. Doesn't mean the other element doesn't matter.

JMN was never elite. And Malkin wasn't elite with that combo. A couple of nice spurts, but there's a difference between that and an elite line with an elite Malkin.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I think we have a sniper in the making for Geno's RW with Sprong.

We just have to find a good fit for that LW (and Sid's to boot ).

 

[Shady Machine]

I think you're making assumptions about what I'm assuming.

I'm saying JR needs to do better by Malkin next year, and I suspect he will. Hey, I'd love JVR, because he kind of combines those assets we're describing, but failing that I wonder if a limited gamble on Kulemin makes more sense than a 5 x 25 type deal on the guys who are frequently mentioned in these threads. I said several times I do NOT KNOW how it will play out. I've suggested the chemistry thing may make it the smarter gamble.

You know, sometimes some people spitball a little in threads. Words like 'not sure' that precede a 'this is how one could look at it' type of argument do not mean 'well, this is absolutely how it will play out'.

As for the more generic puck retriever versus sniper thing, of course both make for a line. For Sid, the guy who can make a play probably is more valuable. For Geno, it's the puck retriever. Doesn't mean the other element doesn't matter.

JMN was never elite. And Malkin wasn't elite with that combo. A couple of nice spurts, but there's a difference between that and an elite line with an elite Malkin.

I guess we mostly agree haha but it would have to be some retention on Kulemin (1-1.5MM) to get me interested.

4.1MM for a 25ish point player is too rich for me.

I guess I'm also kind of tired of talking about Kulemin. There's gotta be other players in the NHL worth talking about for Geno's wing.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think we have a sniper in the making for Geno's RW with Sprong.

We just have to find a good fit for that LW (and Sid's to boot ).

I do too, but if he's not ready next year, then I don't like Kulemin as Geno's primary winger.

 

[KIRK]

I guess we mostly agree haha but it would have to be some retention on Kulemin (1-1.5MM) to get me interested.

4.1MM for a 25ish point player is too rich for me.

I guess I'm also kind of tired of talking about Kulemin. There's gotta be other players in the NHL worth talking about for Geno's wing.

Actually, I said if they'd take Fehr, so I think we're thinking exactly the same thing.

We don't want the net effect of Kulemin (versus Fehr or with retention versus a kid) shouldn't be much more than 2M.

We're even describing the possibilities similarly. It's just your saying 'there could be an upside' while spelling out what the downside looks like, and I'm spelling out what the upside looks like while saying' there could be a downside'.

No wonder we get into trouble when we disagree. We can't even agree to agree.

I do too, but if he's not ready next year, then I don't like Kulemin as Geno's primary winger.

There are other guys to choose from. Wilson. Does Sheary make more sense with Geno and Kulemin (versus Geno and Rust/Fehr)? Simon.

That said, the other reason I pimped Kulemin is this. I actually think we need two guys. We've got cap flexibility. Get a Kulemin. Then look at trades/free agency to add that impact guy. See how he works with Sid-Horny and Geno-Kulemin. Test Sprong, Wilson, and Sheary. Figure out what works best. Maybe two of them step up, and you have 1 competing with Kuhn or Rust for a spot.

And the beauty is as more of those kids step up, you've only committed to 2 years with Kulemin.

 

[mpp9]

I guess we mostly agree haha but it would have to be some retention on Kulemin (1-1.5MM) to get me interested.

4.1MM for a 25ish point player is too rich for me.

I guess I'm also kind of tired of talking about Kulemin. There's gotta be other players in the NHL worth talking about for Geno's wing.

I like Killorn and Frolik.

 

[KIRK]

I like Killorn and Frolik.

Killhorn, absolutely.

Frolik, maybe. Similar price to Kulemin, so can't say it's a maybe that isn't worth considering while Kulemin is. I mean, there you go with Fleury . . . Frolik and #36 for Fleury and Fehr.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

So are we assuming Bonino will come back, or what will we do for a 3C after next year?

Wanting rid of Fehr is fine, but a competent 3C for 2M isn't out of line, especially considering what Jokinen, Bolland, etc are getting. I guess Boyle at 2M is a closer comparison, but he's got less scoring touch than Fehr does, and people here seem to want more out of Fehr in that regard.

So I wouldn't count on them unloading Fehr unless they extend Bonino this summer.

 

[Shady Machine]

I like Killorn and Frolik.

I do too. I prefer both of them to Kulemin. Acquisition costs may be too high for either, but I'd rather spend more to get more than "settle" for Kulemin.

 

[Shady Machine]

So are we assuming Bonino will come back, or what will we do for a 3C after next year?

Wanting rid of Fehr is fine, but a competent 3C for 2M isn't out of line, especially considering what Jokinen, Bolland, etc are getting. I guess Boyle at 2M is a closer comparison, but he's got less scoring touch than Fehr does, and people here seem to want more out of Fehr in that regard.

So I wouldn't count on them unloading Fehr unless they extend Bonino this summer.

I think people assume Sundqvist will be ready by then. Guentzel maybe if you want a more offensive 3C although he may be more likely to be a winger. Bleuger is a possibility too I suppose.

That said, you bring up a good point. I wouldn't move Fehr unless we needed his cap space or he was a desired piece to get a winger we wanted.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I like Killorn and Frolik.

Now this is a wing duo I could get behind for Malkin. I think the big disagreement here is that some people think Kulemin sucks and some people don't. I fall in the first category, it doesn't matter if Kulemin and Malkin have great chemistry if Kulemin is a bad hockey player.

If Kulemin was making a million less and he'd be the 3rd wheel for Malkin and Kessel, I'd probably change my tone on him. Actually, if Kunitz for Kulemin at $3 million would work and the Pens got Trocheck, their forward group could be totally stacked:

Trocheck-Crosby-Hornqvist
Kulemin-Malkin-Kessel
Hagelin-Bonino-Sprong
Kuhnhackl-Fehr-Rust

That's a monstrous forward group.

 

[KIRK]

I do too. I prefer both of them to Kulemin. Acquisition costs may be too high for either, but I'd rather spend more to get more than "settle" for Kulemin.

Well, me too. Killhorn might cost too much, but Frolik + #36 for Fleury + Fehr?

 

[Riptide]

So are we assuming Bonino will come back, or what will we do for a 3C after next year?

Wanting rid of Fehr is fine, but a competent 3C for 2M isn't out of line, especially considering what Jokinen, Bolland, etc are getting. I guess Boyle at 2M is a closer comparison, but he's got less scoring touch than Fehr does, and people here seem to want more out of Fehr in that regard.

So I wouldn't count on them unloading Fehr unless they extend Bonino this summer.

What is Bonino going to want? I'd sign him for 3x3.5m But much more than that and I'd start to question whether Fehr can bring some of what he does for half the price. Or even someone like Blueger, Guentzel or Sundqvist a couple years from now. I mean 3.5m for what he's providing in the playoffs is fine. But if he wants 4m or something like what Sutter got (5x4.375m) then I'd probably pass. We're winning with depth and value contracts. Not overpaying Bonino will be key to continuing that success.

We also need to ensure that regardless of how good we are this year and next year, that we don't fall into the trap that we must re-sign all of our players. Everyone has a "value", and the moment they want more then what the team thinks they're worth, they should be out the door.

 

[KIRK]

What is Bonino going to want? I'd sign him for 3x3.5m But much more than that and I'd start to question whether Fehr can bring some of what he does for half the price. Or even someone like Blueger, Guentzel or Sundqvist a couple years from now. I mean 3.5m for what he's providing in the playoffs is fine. But if he wants 4m or something like what Sutter got (5x4.375m) then I'd probably pass. We're winning with depth and value contracts. Not overpaying Bonino will be key to continuing that success.

We also need to ensure that regardless of how good we are this year and next year, that we don't fall into the trap that we must re-sign all of our players. Everyone has a "value", and the moment they want more then what the team thinks they're worth, they should be out the door.

Fehr doesn't bring what Bonino brings. I'd go up to a little more term and in the 3.5-4.0M range, but that would be the cap.

Your point about the trap, by the way, is spot on.

 

[Riptide]

If Kulemin was making a million less and he'd be the 3rd wheel for Malkin and Kessel, I'd probably change my tone on him. Actually, if Kunitz for Kulemin at $3 million would work and the Pens got Trocheck, their forward group could be totally stacked:

I think it's completely unrealistic to expect Rutherford to bring in multiple forwards this summer - even if he does get rid of Kunitz (where I wouldn't hold my breath).

 

[MtlPenFan]

The guys we needed are locked up. Insane when you think about it, but the Pens are the one team you can look at and say there's only ONE bad contract on it, that being Kunitz's.

There's no cap hell here. The Penguins haven't given up Duclair for Yandlol, or lost a Stralman in FA so they can sign a 90 year old Boyle.

To IC's point, Dumo is going to get paid less than 4M easily simply because the guy doesn't score any points even though he's very good to plain excellent at everything else...and he'll only get better.

Shultz? The guy went from literal hell in Edmonton, being blamed for everything, and suddenly finds himself in the ECF, jumping into the celebration pile with the fans going nuts after yet another OT goal. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but that guy is probably so scared to chase money somewhere else that he'll probably be the one offering a discount.

The pieces are all there for the window to be wide open for the next 4 years. The Pens are one winger away from being an absolute nightmare instead of the really bad dream they are now. Make the right move with a Fleury OR Murray trade and add two guys, they become nearly unstoppable.

I think that's why I'm not nervous about what's going to happen from here on in this season, because this isn't some one off. If we lose, we lose, but I'm looking at beyond this piont. We have our coach. We have an identity, not that fake crap Shero/Bylsma were selling.

There's more to come, and I couldn't be happier.

 

[SEALBound]

PLUS, you still have flexibility to get a real impact top nine guy. Sid-Horny, HBK, Geno-Kulemin. You see who the impact guy fits with. You try out the different kids. A **** load of depth and in two years Kulemin is gone as more of these young kids are truly read.

Tough to talk seriously about Kulemin again but if you can do it for Fehr, I'd do it or send out Kunitz for something and flip it for Kulemin, I would do it. I wouldn't actively seek to trade major assets or any picks for him, I like those line combos though. You have a bunch of possibilities with those duos.

I really wish you and KIRK would stop defending the Kulemin idea by putting down a player I never said we should target for Malkin. Not sure about Empoleon, but I don't think Boedker is a good idea for Geno. Sid maybe.

I'd have to see the lines but Boedker would be in the same mold as Hagelin. A tough slower, Boedker would bring what Hagelin brings. Boed-Sid-Horn, Hag-Geno-Phil or Hag-Sid-Horny, Boed-Geno-Phil...wouldn't hate it.

So if you are wishing to clone Hagelin, Boedker would be a good option. However, I truly believe he will stick with the Avs.

The best hockey he ever played was in the summer of 09. He doesn't need a shooter on his line to dominate.

7 years ago when he was 23. It's different. That's like me say the best mile I ever ran was 4:35 at 17. I don't need anything at 30 to be able to do the same. Not true...I would need steroids, special training time, and a coach.

Geno is proving right now that he can't make due with less.

If you'd listened to the question (it's asked in the 5 min interview about him getting nominated for GM of the year), it doesn't come across that way at all.

If they win the Cup, I'd bet money he retires. If not, maybe a part time consulting role.

I like Killorn and Frolik.

Killorn, yes please. Frolik would be nice but not at that price.

Now this is a wing duo I could get behind for Malkin. I think the big disagreement here is that some people think Kulemin sucks and some people don't. I fall in the first category, it doesn't matter if Kulemin and Malkin have great chemistry if Kulemin is a bad hockey player.

If Kulemin was making a million less and he'd be the 3rd wheel for Malkin and Kessel, I'd probably change my tone on him. Actually, if Kunitz for Kulemin at $3 million would work and the Pens got Trocheck, their forward group could be totally stacked:

Trocheck-Crosby-Hornqvist
Kulemin-Malkin-Kessel
Hagelin-Bonino-Sprong
Kuhnhackl-Fehr-Rust

That's a monstrous forward group.

I support this. You could even legitimately try switching Sprong and Kessel to keep the HBK together.

 

[SEALBound]

The guys we needed are locked up. Insane when you think about it, but the Pens are the one team you can look at and say there's only ONE bad contract on it, that being Kunitz's.

There's no cap hell here. The Penguins haven't given up Duclair for Yandlol, or lost a Stralman in FA so they can sign a 90 year old Boyle.

To IC's point, Dumo is going to get paid less than 4M easily simply because the guy doesn't score any points even though he's very good to plain excellent at everything else...and he'll only get better.

Shultz? The guy went from literal hell in Edmonton, being blamed for everything, and suddenly finds himself in the ECF, jumping into the celebration pile with the fans going nuts after yet another OT goal. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but that guy is probably so scared to chase money somewhere else that he'll probably be the one offering a discount.

The pieces are all there for the window to be wide open for the next 4 years. The Pens are one winger away from being an absolute nightmare instead of the really bad dream they are now. Make the right move with a Fleury OR Murray trade and add two guys, they become nearly unstoppable.

I think that's why I'm not nervous about what's going to happen from here on in this season, because this isn't some one off. If we lose, we lose, but I'm looking at beyond this piont. We have our coach. We have an identity, not that fake crap Shero/Bylsma were selling.

There's more to come, and I couldn't be happier.

Agreed. I think Schultz will take a bit less to stay here. There are just too many reasons to.

I think the window is this year and next year. Why, Bonino. He'll get paid a lot more than he makes now. I guess it will depend on what we do with MAF. If he and Kunitz go, there's plenty of money to account for the raises to Bones, Dumo, and any of the young kids. Those 2yr deals to Wilson, Rust, and Kuhnhackl will help a ton. Sundy, Sprong, and Simon being on their ELCs is nice, and Sundy is there too. Lots to like.

 

[KIRK]

Tough to talk seriously about Kulemin again but if you can do it for Fehr, I'd do it or send out Kunitz for something and flip it for Kulemin, I would do it. I wouldn't actively seek to trade major assets or any picks for him, I like those line combos though. You have a bunch of possibilities with those duos.



I'd have to see the lines but Boedker would be in the same mold as Hagelin. A tough slower, Boedker would bring what Hagelin brings. Boed-Sid-Horn, Hag-Geno-Phil or Hag-Sid-Horny, Boed-Geno-Phil...wouldn't hate it.

So if you are wishing to clone Hagelin, Boedker would be a good option. However, I truly believe he will stick with the Avs.



7 years ago when he was 23. It's different. That's like me say the best mile I ever ran was 4:35 at 17. I don't need anything at 30 to be able to do the same. Not true...I would need steroids, special training time, and a coach.

Geno is proving right now that he can't make due with less.



If they win the Cup, I'd bet money he retires. If not, maybe a part time consulting role.



Killorn, yes please. Frolik would be nice but not at that price.



I support this. You could even legitimately try switching Sprong and Kessel to keep the HBK together.

That was my point when mpp9 mentioned him.

 

[Gurglesons]

To IC's point, Dumo is going to get paid less than 4M easily simply because the guy doesn't score any points even though he's very good to plain excellent at everything else...and he'll only get better.

The best part of Dumo is he isn't one of those terrible defensemen that just get by because they play sound positionally.

Dude can skate, defend, and move the puck out fast. Such a stud. Really thinking he's going to be my next jersey.

 

[Riptide]

The guys we needed are locked up. Insane when you think about it, but the Pens are the one team you can look at and say there's only ONE bad contract on it, that being Kunitz's.

There's no cap hell here.

This summer? No, probably not. Tight perhaps, but far from a huge issue. What about next season though? Sundqvist, Sheary, Dumoulin, Murray, Daley and Bonino? Those last 4 are all due for raises. What about Hornqvist the year after?

So no, we're not currently in "cap hell". But we will absolutely have some tough choices to make over the next 3 summers. Especially if we sign an expensive UFA this summer to a 3+ year contract.

To IC's point, Dumo is going to get paid less than 4M easily simply because the guy doesn't score any points even though he's very good to plain excellent at everything else...and he'll only get better.

While he probably well get less than 4m - he's still not going to be dirt cheap. Probably costs at least 3.5m (with term). And if he finds any touch of an offensive game, that could easily climb over 4m by June 2017.

 

[KIRK]

This summer? No, probably not. Tight perhaps, but far from a huge issue. What about next season though? Sundqvist, Sheary, Dumoulin, Murray, Daley and Bonino? Those last 4 are all due for raises. What about Hornqvist the year after?

So no, we're not currently in "cap hell". But we will absolutely have some tough choices to make over the next 3 summers. Especially if we sign an expensive UFA this summer to a 3+ year contract.

That's partially where moving Fleury and losing Kunitz and Fehr would come in. Creates a lot of flexibility and as long as the cap goes up a little every year, you should be good.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's partially where moving Fleury and losing Kunitz and Fehr would come in. Creates a lot of flexibility and as long as the cap goes up a little every year, you should be good.

It seems brain dead not to move on from Fleury. I mean, he won us a cup, but let us be honest in the fact that he couldn't just shrug off some of the goals and momentum swings Murray has.

I've changed my mind on Fleury over the past three years, but at the same time I don't know if I trust him to lead this defense the way Murray has.

 

[KIRK]

It seems brain dead not to move on from Fleury. I mean, he won us a cup, but let us be honest in the fact that he couldn't just shrug off some of the goals and momentum swings Murray has.

I've changed my mind on Fleury over the past three years, but at the same time I don't know if I trust him to lead this defense the way Murray has.

It's not about trust. It's about 3-4 million dollars, which is the difference between Fleury and a cheap backup versus Murray and a little costlier veteran backup.

That said, I think the team would be making a huge mistake going into next season with both of them. You've got a good 3-4 year window here with Sid and Geno (and maybe even where you can pull off this 3 #1 lines thing). Exploit every year of that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The best part of Dumo is he isn't one of those terrible defensemen that just get by because they play sound positionally.

Dude can skate, defend, and move the puck out fast. Such a stud. Really thinking he's going to be my next jersey.

Dumoulin is a perfect example of the modern day shutdown defenseman. Guys like Dumoulin are replacing guys like Gill and Scuderi in the NHL, the latter group just doesn't have a spot in the NHL anymore.

At this point, I really want to keep both Schultz and Pouliot. Schultz has been really good his entire time with the Penguins and I really like that he's another righty shot that we don't have. Pouliot doesn't have a future here at this point, I don't think that's really debatable. However, if we hold on to him and develop him further, to the point where he becomes similar to Goligoski in 2011, we could probably get back a really good winger for him. It makes more sense to trade him in 2 years for a guy like 2011 Neal than to trade him for another reclamation project this summer.

The plan for this summer should be going after a top end RFA and then a tweener UFA if they have the cap space for it.