Salary Cap: 2016-17 roster-building part IV | Contract chart, cap info in post #1

[Shady Machine]

Has Malkin been elite since then? Or was he elite only that one year with Kunitz? Think honestly on that . . . when outside the KMN year did even MN look elite?

But, by all means, go sign Boedkker if it makes you happy. He's good.

Malkin was elite with Kunitz and Neal in 2012 with 109 points and I'd argue was damn close to elite in 13-14 when he put up 72 points in 60 games with Jokinen-Neal as his linemates.

When did I say sign Boedker?

I also never said a player like Kunitz wasn't desirable, but I don't think that's Kulemin. Kunitz in his worst year is putting up 15 more points than Kulemin is putting up EVERY YEAR for the last 5 seasons.

Again, I'm not totally opposed to Kulemin, but let's not pretend he's a for sure upgrade just because they are friends and grew up playing together.

 

[mpp9]

Is there some other Kulemin in the NHL that I don't know of? Because the Kulemin I'm thinking of is the worst possession forward on the Islanders, produces like an okay 3rd liner and gets paid like a legit top-6 forward. I hate the argument that the Pens "need to bring in someone to make Malkin better" not because the Pens don't need to do that, but because people just use that excuse to justify bringing in bad players (Bickell, M Foligno and Kulemin are 3 big examples of that).

Kulemin would work here if the Pens get him at $3 million AAV for Kunitz and they play him with Malkin and Kessel. Otherwise, I see no reason why the Pens should be interested in him.

Kulemin wasn't a great possession player this season. He was fine last season and put up 15 goals with none of them on the PP.

Boedker's a terrible possession player as well. Isn't a great ES goal scorer. And will cost much more.

And with guys like Ladd and Eriksson, you're paying for past performance. Kulemin is 29 and signed for 2 more years. It's not nearly the the same amount of risk.

 

[KIRK]

He hasn't had a dominant season since 2012, though. Some of that is injuries. Some of that is on him. And some of that is the fact we haven't given him players that he can work with. The first two things he claims he's going to fix this offseason by staying in Pittsburgh and getting in better shape. The best he's had since 2012 in terms of linemates is Neal and a rotating cast on LW, which as we saw wasn't enough.

Look what Kane did this season with two players who work with his style of game. Look what happened to Toews without Saad and Sharp and a declining Hossa.

You don't need clones of past players who worked with Malkin, but there's definitely something to certain players fitting his type of game.

He also wasn't dominant in 2 the two years between the cup run and that MVP season. But, people see what they want to see. Malkin succeeds when he has a scoring winger, and no matter how much the evidence is that a scoring winger is a luxury rather than a need, they'll still ignore it. It is what it is.

Malkin was elite with Kunitz and Neal in 2012 with 109 points and I'd argue was damn close to elite in 13-14 when he put up 72 points in 60 games with Jokinen-Neal as his linemates.

When did I say sign Boedker?

I also never said a player like Kunitz wasn't desirable, but I don't think that's Kulemin. Kunitz in his worst year is putting up 15 more points than Kulemin is putting up EVERY YEAR for the last 5 seasons.

Again, I'm not totally opposed to Kulemin, but let's not pretend he's a for sure upgrade just because they are friends and grew up playing together.

You just made my point

6 years since the cup run, and the 1 in which Malkin was elite was when he had a Malone or Talbot playoffs type on his wing in Kunitz.

And, I'm not pretending anything where Kulemin is concerned. My point was you have to do something for Malkin. Fehr for Kulemin, straight up, is a 2M gamble for 2 years. Much better than signing some random guy to play with him. Maybe it's a marginal difference. Maybe Malkin just feels so comfortable out there it works.

I think you'd agree for Geno the biggest thing is that he trusts who he's out there with, because with that he just plays rather than overthinking things. He trusted Kunitz, Talbot, and Malone to get him the puck, to know when to give him space and when to support, and really to play the game in a way that Malkin trusted that if he took a chance it wouldn't kill the line (compare that to now, where he's hesitant out there and overthinking). As I said, a cheap gamble.

PLUS, you still have flexibility to get a real impact top nine guy. Sid-Horny, HBK, Geno-Kulemin. You see who the impact guy fits with. You try out the different kids. A **** load of depth and in two years Kulemin is gone as more of these young kids are truly read.

 

[Shady Machine]

He hasn't had a dominant season since 2012, though. Some of that is injuries. Some of that is on him. And some of that is the fact we haven't given him players that he can work with. The first two things he claims he's going to fix this offseason by staying in Pittsburgh and getting in better shape. The best he's had since 2012 in terms of linemates is Neal and a rotating cast on LW, which as we saw wasn't enough.

Look what Kane did this season with two players who work with his style of game. Look what happened to Toews without Saad and Sharp and a declining Hossa.

You don't need clones of past players who worked with Malkin, but there's definitely something to certain players fitting his type of game.

Basically you are saying: Look what Kane and Toews did with 2 really good linemates. Style was a part of it, but all of those are real good hockey players.

Stick a ****** version of Panarin and Anisimov on Kane's line and I bet the results are much less desirable. How about Sheary-Sundqvist-Kane. Those are stylistically similar players. How does Kane do?

 

[Shady Machine]

Kulemin wasn't a great possession player this season. He was fine last season and put up 15 goals with none of them on the PP.

Boedker's a terrible possession player as well. Isn't a great ES goal scorer. And will cost much more.

And with guys like Ladd and Eriksson, you're paying for past performance. Kulemin is 29 and signed for 2 more years. It's not nearly the the same amount of risk.

I really wish you and KIRK would stop defending the Kulemin idea by putting down a player I never said we should target for Malkin. Not sure about Empoleon, but I don't think Boedker is a good idea for Geno. Sid maybe.

Also, how are you not paying for past performance with Kulemin? He's a 4.1 cap hit for a guy that last put up 50 points in 2011. At least Eriksson and Ladd have produced recently. As for age, they are 1 year older.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Kulemin wasn't a great possession player this season. He was fine last season and put up 15 goals with none of them on the PP.

Boedker's a terrible possession player as well. Isn't a great ES goal scorer. And will cost much more.

And with guys like Ladd and Eriksson, you're paying for past performance. Kulemin is 29 and signed for 2 more years. It's not nearly the the same amount of risk.

Kulemin wasn't really a fine possession player, he had a negative relCorsi last year (was 5th worst for their regulars), and that was while he played a ton with Tavares. If he's a guy that can only put up 15 goals while playing with a guy that nearly won the scoring title, why would he do any better here? His points/60 while playing with Tavares was worse than Kunitz's points/60 this year and Kunitz's possession numbers were insanely better than Kulemin's.

Unless we're gaining cap space, I'd rather have Kunitz than Kulemin next year. I'm completely serious with that.

That's a horribly flawed argument to say "Malkin hasn't been elite since 2009 except for when he has been, so he needs a player like Kulemin". It's a complete non-sequitor argument, it doesn't make logical sense. Malkin has been elite when he has had 2 top-6 caliber linemates to play with. It's honestly that simple.

I really wish you and KIRK would stop defending the Kulemin idea by putting down a player I never said we should target for Malkin. Not sure about Empoleon, but I don't think Boedker is a good idea for Geno. Sid maybe.

I'd want Boedker for Sid, but I'm in the same boat now as I was at the deadline. He's primarily a RWer and he has never been that strong of an ES player, so he's not my first option.

 

[Shady Machine]

He also wasn't dominant in 2 the two years between the cup run and that MVP season. But, people see what they want to see. Malkin succeeds when he has a scoring winger, and no matter how much the evidence is that a scoring winger is a luxury rather than a need, they'll still ignore it. It is what it is.

Who is the scoring winger they are getting?

Wait, are you saying Malkin doesn't need a scoring winger? I'm genuinely confused by this post.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I also like how saying "Malkin doesn't need a scoring winger to be elite" isn't even supported, because he had Sykora or Neal for all of his 4 best seasons. As a matter of fact, the years he WASN'T elite are the years he didn't have a goal scorer on his wing or didn't have 2 top-6 caliber linemates.

 

[mpp9]

Basically you are saying: Look what Kane and Toews did with 2 really good linemates. Style was a part of it, but all of those are real good hockey players.

Stick a ****** version of Panarin and Anisimov on Kane's line and I bet the results are much less desirable. How about Sheary-Sundqvist-Kane. Those are stylistically similar players. How does Kane do?

Fair enough.

I just think we're better off steering clear of free agency, finding an under the radar player via trade for cheap and being able to roll 87, 71 and 81 on separate lines.

 

[mpp9]

I also like how saying "Malkin doesn't need a scoring winger to be elite" isn't even supported, because he had Sykora or Neal for all of his 4 best seasons. As a matter of fact, the years he WASN'T elite are the years he didn't have a goal scorer on his wing or didn't have 2 top-6 caliber linemates.

The best hockey he ever played was in the summer of 09. He doesn't need a shooter on his line to dominate.

 

[billybudd]

In an hypothetical scenario in which I'm a 40 year old Matt Cullen who has banked about 30 million in my career and the Penguins win a Stanley Cup with me playing awesome in that run, I probably retire. Nothing like going out on top.

 

[Shady Machine]

Fair enough.

I just think we're better off steering clear of free agency, finding an under the radar player via trade for cheap and being able to roll 87, 71 and 81 on separate lines.

I can agree to that. I'd explore free agent options, but I'm not looking to overpay for a solution.

My preference is to look at moving Kunitz, Pouliot, and Fleury for potential upgrades. Some of that depends on other moves (signing Schultz or expansion) but I think we have some interesting pieces to move in trades.

I want to reiterate that I'm not totally against Kulemin. I think a Kulemin-Malkin-Sprong line could be really interesting but I think there are other Kulemin types out there that have produced more than 30 points since 2011.

 

[catnip]

I wouldn't even bother with any of these solid but unspectacular third-wheel types when there's no way they're ever getting the second wheel.

 

[Shady Machine]

The best hockey he ever played was in the summer of 09. He doesn't need a shooter on his line to dominate.

That was also many years and injuries ago. He's not the same dominant offensive player he was in his early 20's. Almost no elite offensive player is as dynamic in their late 20's into their 30's.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The best hockey he ever played was in the summer of 09. He doesn't need a shooter on his line to dominate.

Malkin's 4 best seasons:

11-12: Had Kunitz and Neal
08-09: Had Fedetenko and Sykora
07-08: Had Malone and Sykora
13-14: Had Jokinen and Neal

Malkin's 4 worst seasons:

10-11: Had basically garbage, he was shuffled around so much because of the complete lack of top-6 forwards for the Pens that year
14-15: Had Comeau and Perron (who for some reason was straight up garbage here)
15-16: Had Kessel and Perron, Malkin was elite this year as soon as he got Hagelin (had a 41 goal, 103 point pace with Hagelin and Kessel)
12-13: Had Neal and a rotating cast of busting forwards and guys playing their off-wings

What do his 4 best seasons all have in common? They all have 1 sniper and both guys are at least 2nd/3rd line tweeners (Fedetenko was the only 2nd/3rd line tweener, the rest were legit top-6 forwards). What do his 4 worst seasons have in common? They gave Malkin either 1 or 2 non top-6 linemates (or in the case of 12-13, they moved a career RWer to LW) and Malkin missed a bunch of time due to injury.

 

[mpp9]

In an hypothetical scenario in which I'm a 40 year old Matt Cullen who has banked about 30 million in my career and the Penguins win a Stanley Cup with me playing awesome in that run, I probably retire. Nothing like going out on top.

Part of me feels he's not going to be as good next season, so I hope he does retire, but another part says he's not human and will want to get us back deep in the playoffs.

 

[KIRK]

Who is the scoring winger they are getting?

Wait, are you saying Malkin doesn't need a scoring winger? I'm genuinely confused by this post.

I'm saying, and have been saying for years, that the ideal line for Malkin is Malone-Malkin-Sykora or Kunitz-Malkin-Neal (and it was a similar thing in Russia with Kulemin and Moyzhakin). For want of a better word, a puck retriever and a sniper, although it's a little more sophisticated than that.

I mean, is it really a coincidence at this point that's when Malkin is at HIS best, when he plays HIS game and just goes instead of playing in a way that you can see he's overthinking everything. I'm not talking a bunch of meh and a couple of god runs. I'm talking elite.

Both are ingredients in the formula where you get Malkin at his best game.

MY point, for the umpteen hundreth time, is that the puck retriever is the more essential ingredient and the sniper is the luxury.

After all, if it were otherwise, then Malkin-Neal wouldn't have been so pedestrian without Kunitz (only time it looked good was with Beau . . . better puck retriever than people appreciate, give and go, instinctively understood Malkin).

I'm not even saying Kulemin is the answer here, but I am saying if the Pens are going to do something to help Malkin, then better a 2M 2 year gamble on that potential puck retriever (and hope one of the kids can be that scorer) than a 5 x 25 investment on Boeddker (A METAPHOR, not necessarily the player per se) when there's no puck retriever in the system save maybe Sundqvist, who's ticketed for 4C in the next year or two.

Is that clear now? You're not necessarily opposed to Kulemin for the same reason I've been tentative with my language . . . we both know it's a gamble . . . I just see the bigger potential payoff because we differ on what linemates help Malkin get to his game, what the value of that is, and why.

EDIT: Shady, I'm on the naive belief that Malkin actually can finish himself if there's someone on a wing who knows how and when to get him the puck. He just rarely has that. He's had 'finishers' who are great if Malkin can get past 2-3 guys to get that finisher the puck.

 

[mpp9]

That was also many years and injuries ago. He's not the same dominant offensive player he was in his early 20's. Almost no elite offensive player is as dynamic in their late 20's into their 30's.

Correct, but the way he plays hasn't changed. I want 87 and 71 shooting alot. Put them with players who can help make that happen. Get them out of their own end, win battles, can skate with them, have the primary instinct of getting them the puck as much as possible and go to the net.

We don't need 09 Malkin. I'll take a light version of that in the forward setup we're talking about.

 

[Riptide]

reading between the lines, it suggests JR has no interest in extending his stay

If you'd listened to the question (it's asked in the 5 min interview about him getting nominated for GM of the year), it doesn't come across that way at all.

 

[KIRK]

In an hypothetical scenario in which I'm a 40 year old Matt Cullen who has banked about 30 million in my career and the Penguins win a Stanley Cup with me playing awesome in that run, I probably retire. Nothing like going out on top.

True.

I suspect he either comes back for a year at around 2M or retires.

Correct, but the way he plays hasn't changed. I want 87 and 71 shooting alot. Put them with players who can help make that happen. Get them out of their own end, win battles, can skate with them, have the primary instinct of getting them the puck as much as possible and go to the net.

We don't need 09 Malkin. I'll take a light version of that in the forward setup we're talking about.

When Malkin has a truly complementary puck retriever, someone who knows how and when to get him the puck, he shoots a lot and is more than capable of finishing. It's why I call the puck retriever the need and the scoring winger the luxury. He needs someone to help get him and keep for him the puck, not someone who's a better finisher if Malkin can dance 2-3 guys.

 

[Riptide]

In an hypothetical scenario in which I'm a 40 year old Matt Cullen who has banked about 30 million in my career and the Penguins win a Stanley Cup with me playing awesome in that run, I probably retire. Nothing like going out on top.

Meh, over half of it would be gone to taxes and other deductions. I'd honestly be surprised if he had 10m in the bank - realistically it's probably closer to half that - and that's if he's smart with his money. As for whether he retires on top or not, it's going to come down to how much fun he's having. Win or lose, if he's having fun, and thinks he can do another season, he'll be back. The good news, is I doubt he goes elsewhere if he plays next year.

 

[Riptide]

I want to reiterate that I'm not totally against Kulemin. I think a Kulemin-Malkin-Sprong line could be really interesting but I think there are other Kulemin types out there that have produced more than 30 points since 2011.

Care to name a few, and what they would realistically cost (trade/salary)?

 

[Riptide]

True.

I suspect he either comes back for a year at around 2M or retires.

I doubt he costs more than 1m or so if he sticks around.

 

[KIRK]

Care to name a few, and what they would realistically cost (trade/salary)?

And when they've ever shown the slightest inclination of meshing with a guy like Geno?

 

[Shady Machine]

You just made my point

6 years since the cup run, and the 1 in which Malkin was elite was when he had a Malone or Talbot playoffs type on his wing in Kunitz.

And, I'm not pretending anything where Kulemin is concerned. My point was you have to do something for Malkin. Fehr for Kulemin, straight up, is a 2M gamble for 2 years. Much better than signing some random guy to play with him. Maybe it's a marginal difference. Maybe Malkin just feels so comfortable out there it works.

I think you'd agree for Geno the biggest thing is that he trusts who he's out there with, because with that he just plays rather than overthinking things. He trusted Kunitz, Talbot, and Malone to get him the puck, to know when to give him space and when to support, and really to play the game in a way that Malkin trusted that if he took a chance it wouldn't kill the line (compare that to now, where he's hesitant out there and overthinking). As I said, a cheap gamble.

PLUS, you still have flexibility to get a real impact top nine guy. Sid-Horny, HBK, Geno-Kulemin. You see who the impact guy fits with. You try out the different kids. A **** load of depth and in two years Kulemin is gone as more of these young kids are truly read.

Your point must have changed if I made your point. I said he was also nearly elite with Jokinen and Neal. The common thread in both of those seasons was Neal. Also, with no Sid for most of Geno's MVP season, Geno got tons of ice time and opportunity.

Also, Kunitz was a really good player back then. His style of play meshed with them, but he was also much better than Kulemin is today and Neal is an elite sniper. I certainly don't think we have the ability to bring in a better sniper than Neal to offset the difference in quality between Kulemin and Kunitz.

In general, my point is that Malkin needs better hockey players. I think most great lines around the league succeed by similar factors. One grinder type, one playmaker, and one goal scorer or some combination of the 3. Those aren't unique characteristics to a Malkin line. That's called building balanced skillsets. Chemistry and comfort is a big part of that too, but I think you are making too many assumptions that Kulemin and Malkin will have instant chemistry that makes Kulemin a better player than he's been in the past 5 years.