Salary Cap: 2016-17 roster-building part IV | Contract chart, cap info in post #1

[KIRK]

That makes some sense. I just don't see them retaining unless they are desperate to move him.

I've also moved on from the Kulemin train. He's a 20-30 point player at this point. He does have size and speed, but I'm not convinced he's going to be all that much better with Malkin than he's been for the past 5 seasons.

If NYI retained $1-1.5MM and he only cost a 3rd round pick, I'd be interested, but I don't see that happening.

Would Malkin be better with him? I don't know, but I think mpp9's point that two years of that represents a better gamble than a bit more coin for some of the other guys noted here for 4-5 years may not be so terrible an idea. After watching HBK, I'm starting to buy in again to words like CHEMISTRY and TRUST and the value that has on the ice.

And, yeah, I don't think they retain. What I suspect is a swap for Fehr. In that scenario, you're adding some cap dollars, but it's a much safer proposition. Plus, you'll be creating a spot for 2 years down the line, as more of these kids become ready, instead of making that 4-5 year big dollar commitment.

I agree that we can't bank on Kulemin being worth 4m to us even with a full season with 71.

It'd have to be something where we're dumping a less expensive but worse roster player on them, or they're retaining and it costs us a 3rd or cheaper.

I still like the idea of adding Kulemin, but I'm not giving up one of our 2nd rounders. I hope we use them in a trade for a longterm solution or drafting one.

Nobody's giving up a pick for him. Only way I'd do it is a straight swap for Fehr or for a middling prospect where they retain. And, I'm pretty sure that's the best they're going to find out there.

 

[mpp9]

If they're bringing Cullen back, there's little need for Fehr. He's a better center than a winger, and we have Sundqvist as depth.

I'm not sure if the Isles would be interested in him, but I'd do that swap probably. Especially if JR and MS are on the same page about how to use him.

 

[KIRK]

If they're bringing Cullen back, there's little need for Fehr. He's a better center than a winger, and we have Sundqvist as depth.

I'm not sure if the Isles would be interested in him, but I'd do that swap probably. Especially if JR and MS are on the same page about how to use him.

Cullen, I think, 1 year, about 2M, and he'll want to come back. It won't be just dollars for him.

Kulemin for Fehr

Then, you drug Kunitz into removing Toronto from his no trade list and move Fleury/Kunitz for Bernier/JVR.

I'd be good . . .

 

[Riptide]

I'd look at a Rychel, Milano, Bittner and pick for Pouliot trade for a Pouliot+ for Jenner trade.

CBJ isn't going to trade Jenner. He had 30 goals for them and is just starting his bridge deal (2x2.9m). Odds are he will be their #2C next season.

Rychel, Milano, etc? Yes those are decent targets - especially given our lack of top end forward prospects. Just not sure Pouliot is what they'd want for them - as CBJ has some very impressive D prospects. Not to mention a fairly young blueline in general.

 

[Riptide]

Well yeah but why are the Isles trading us Kulemin for a 3rd and retaining?

It's not like those two options are equal in likelihood.

He's being paid 4 mil and had 22 points this season. What do you think he's going to bring back?

I'd argue he's cap dump territory.

It's actually worse then that. He's getting 4.25m next season (earned that this year too) and will earn 5.25m in the final yr of the contract. He's owed 9.5m over the next two seasons and was paid 4.25m for those 22 points. For a team that's a little budget conscious then most - and who has several other escalating contracts (most of their contracts start low and raise with time), I could see them being interested in something like that. Just not sure how interested they'd be in retaining any salary.

According to CapFriendly, their salary commitments are already 5.5m more than their cap commitments. That said... getting to the 2nd round in the playoffs helps someone's bottom line - just not sure what the impact is due to how their lease agreement is setup.

 

[KIRK]

It's actually worse then that. He's getting 4.25m next season (earned that this year too) and will earn 5.25m in the final yr of the contract. He's owed 9.5m over the next two seasons and was paid 4.25m for those 22 points. For a team that's a little budget conscious then most - and who has several other escalating contracts (most of their contracts start low and raise with time), I could see them being interested in something like that. Just not sure how interested they'd be in retaining any salary.

I don't see them wanting to retain. I could see them interested in a Fehr for Kulemin swap. If you're resigning Cullen and with Sundqvist anyway, it doesn't hurt the Pens. And, as mpp9 and I have suggested, if you're going to gamble to find a more natural complement for Geno, better to do it for 2 years with Kulemin than 5 years @ 5M a year plus for some of the other guys mentioned here.

 

[Riptide]

On a side note, reading the Ils board, it seems like Kulemin is seen completely as a cap dump and that the fans would be overjoyed not to have his 4.18m on their 4th line.

 

[Shady Machine]

Okay so let's say you trade Fehr for Kulemin (I don't see it happening, but let's play along) and Sully plays him with Malkin. Cullen also wants to come back for another year. You have this as a base:

xxx-Crosby-Hornqvist
Kulemin-Malkin-xxx
Hagelin-Bones-Kessel
Kuhn-Cullen-Rust

xxx's are Sheary, Wilson, Sprong, Guentzel, Simon

If Sprong is NHL ready, I'm okay with this set up.

I guess the question you have to ask yourself, is Kulemin any better than Eric Fehr? Is chemistry from an international tournament forever ago really relevant today?

 

[Shady Machine]

On a side note, reading the Ils board, it seems like Kulemin is seen completely as a cap dump and that the fans would be overjoyed not to have his 4.18m on their 4th line.

Yeah that's the thing. Does he just suck now? Can we afford to find out?

 

[Riptide]

Yeah that's the thing. Does he just suck now? Can we afford to find out?

If there was a way to get his cap hit down to around 3.5m, for 2 years, I'd probably take the chance to find out. I mean when I've seen him play, he still seems to be playing the same way. Hard to the net, good along the boards, hitting, and still has his legs.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Yeah that's the thing. Does he just suck now? Can we afford to find out?

IF they eat a million per, then I say yes.

 

[mpp9]

He's still a ludicrously quick skater for how big he is. Plays a responsible two way game. Friends with one of our stars. Won't cost a ton of cap space or assets.

He's a tough guy to get a read on with advanced stats. He usually is buried with zone starts when he's not playing with the team's more talented players.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'd rather just keep Kunitz and play him for a year with Malkin than trade for Kulemin to play him with Malkin. Kulemin is not good and hasn't been good for years, I really wish people would just let go of the "Russian BFFs" idea.

Kulemin's most common linemates over the last 2 years were Nielsen and Okposo this year and Tavares and Nelson. He's not playing with the scrubs, he's playing on their top-2 lines and still has awful possession numbers. He does start a lot in the defensive zone, but it's not the highest on NYI (he's like 4th or 5th for forwards) and just starting in the defensive zone a lot doesn't mean that your possession numbers by default are bad (Pouliot started the 2nd most in the defensive zone of any Pens D this year, yet he had by far the best possession numbers). Kulemin starts roughly 51-54% of the time in the defensive zone, he's not getting purely defensive minutes. He's just not good.

Edit: the only way I'd trade for Kulemin is if it's for Kunitz and we gain cap space from trading for him. That's it.

 

[JakeNBake59]

reading between the lines, it suggests JR has no interest in extending his stay

 

[mpp9]

Okay so let's say you trade Fehr for Kulemin (I don't see it happening, but let's play along) and Sully plays him with Malkin. Cullen also wants to come back for another year. You have this as a base:

xxx-Crosby-Hornqvist
Kulemin-Malkin-xxx
Hagelin-Bones-Kessel
Kuhn-Cullen-Rust

xxx's are Sheary, Wilson, Sprong, Guentzel, Simon

If Sprong is NHL ready, I'm okay with this set up.

I guess the question you have to ask yourself, is Kulemin any better than Eric Fehr? Is chemistry from an international tournament forever ago really relevant today?

If Sprong isnt' ready, you can slide Kulemin to RW and move a guy like Wilson up the depth chart.

Kulemin's a better winger than Fehr is. Faster, stronger and a better complement to a star center. If we didn't have Bonino, Cullen and Sundqvist, I probably wouldn't trade him though.

 

[KIRK]

Okay so let's say you trade Fehr for Kulemin (I don't see it happening, but let's play along) and Sully plays him with Malkin. Cullen also wants to come back for another year. You have this as a base:

xxx-Crosby-Hornqvist
Kulemin-Malkin-xxx
Hagelin-Bones-Kessel
Kuhn-Cullen-Rust

xxx's are Sheary, Wilson, Sprong, Guentzel, Simon

If Sprong is NHL ready, I'm okay with this set up.

I guess the question you have to ask yourself, is Kulemin any better than Eric Fehr? Is chemistry from an international tournament forever ago really relevant today?

Is he better than Fehr in a bubble? Probably a little.

One thing I'd like to clarify: This isn't chemistry from an international tournament. Malkin played with Kulemin from the day he was old enough to put on skates.

Like a Talbot or a Malone, he's got that 'can work with Malkin skillset': Just enough skill to pass, the give and go, defensive awareness, an innate understanding of how Malkin plays, board work, goes to the net, etc.

Now, is he done or is him in New York a Hagelin in Anaheim type of thing? I don't know.

But, think on this: IF you do that deal AND you move Fleury, then you can still go out there and grab yourself another forward, an impact guy.

I floated a JVR/Bernier for Kunitz/Fleury swap. But, there would be other options.

Last thought: For Malkin, it's about comfort and trust. When he's playing naturally and not overthinking, his line kills it, no matter the actual talent level on the wing. That won't be an issue with a Kulemin.

I think it's a cheap, short term gamble that keeps things flexible to make a big get up front and truly have a 3 #1 lines model.

If Sprong isnt' ready, you can slide Kulemin to RW and move a guy like Wilson up the depth chart.

Kulemin's a better winger than Fehr is. Faster, stronger and a better complement to a star center. If we didn't have Bonino, Cullen and Sundqvist, I probably wouldn't trade him though.

Bingo. Kulemin can play either wing.

Then, you add an impact winger. Play him with Sid and Horny, try the kids with Sid. Play him with Geno and Kulemin. Try the kids with them. And the beauty is, this is a 2 year thing . . . you can keep and let guys go based on how the kids develop.

 

[Shady Machine]

reading between the lines, it suggests JR has no interest in extending his stay

You are reading between lines that don't exist. He's not going to answer that question during a Cup run.

 

[KIRK]

reading between the lines, it suggests JR has no interest in extending his stay

Not sure I get that read.

 

[Shady Machine]

Is he better than Fehr in a bubble? Probably a little.

One thing I'd like to clarify: This isn't chemistry from an international tournament. Malkin played with Kulemin from the day he was old enough to put on skates.

Like a Talbot or a Malone, he's got that 'can work with Malkin skillset': Just enough skill to pass, the give and go, defensive awareness, an innate understanding of how Malkin plays, board work, goes to the net, etc.

Now, is he done or is him in New York a Hagelin in Anaheim type of thing? I don't know.

But, think on this: IF you do that deal AND you move Fleury, then you can still go out there and grab yourself another forward, an impact guy.

I floated a JVR/Bernier for Kunitz/Fleury swap. But, there would be other options.

Last thought: For Malkin, it's about comfort and trust. When he's playing naturally and not overthinking, his line kills it, no matter the actual talent level on the wing. That won't be an issue with a Kulemin.

I think it's a cheap, short term gamble that keeps things flexible to make a big get up front and truly have a 3 #1 lines model.

The Hagelin suggestion is garbage. Hagelin struggled for half a season on a new team. Kulemin hasn't produced more than 31 points since 2011.

And honestly, can we please stop talking about the Malone/Talbot thing already? We haven't had those players in over 6 years. It's time to move on. Malkin has been elite since then and neither were on the team.

For every star player, it's about comfort and trust, but let's not pretend Malkin needs Talbot, Malone, or Kulemin. What he needs are good hockey players.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I'd rather just keep Kunitz and play him for a year with Malkin than trade for Kulemin to play him with Malkin. Kulemin is not good and hasn't been good for years, I really wish people would just let go of the "Russian BFFs" idea.

Kulemin's most common linemates over the last 2 years were Nielsen and Okposo this year and Tavares and Nelson. He's not playing with the scrubs, he's playing on their top-2 lines and still has awful possession numbers. He does start a lot in the defensive zone, but it's not the highest on NYI (he's like 4th or 5th for forwards) and just starting in the defensive zone a lot doesn't mean that your possession numbers by default are bad (Pouliot started the 2nd most in the defensive zone of any Pens D this year, yet he had by far the best possession numbers). Kulemin starts roughly 51-54% of the time in the defensive zone, he's not getting purely defensive minutes. He's just not good.

Edit: the only way I'd trade for Kulemin is if it's for Kunitz and we gain cap space from trading for him. That's it.

That all might true, but I have seen players go from awful to awesome when paired with their ideal linemate. If Geno and Kulemin have a lifelong connection, why would you not want to give it a shot, especially if it doesn't cost that much.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Is there some other Kulemin in the NHL that I don't know of? Because the Kulemin I'm thinking of is the worst possession forward on the Islanders, produces like an okay 3rd liner and gets paid like a legit top-6 forward. I hate the argument that the Pens "need to bring in someone to make Malkin better" not because the Pens don't need to do that, but because people just use that excuse to justify bringing in bad players (Bickell, M Foligno and Kulemin are 3 big examples of that).

Kulemin would work here if the Pens get him at $3 million AAV for Kunitz and they play him with Malkin and Kessel. Otherwise, I see no reason why the Pens should be interested in him.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Not sure I get that read.

If anything, I got the opposite

 

[KIRK]

The Hagelin suggestion is garbage. Hagelin struggled for half a season on a new team. Kulemin hasn't produced more than 31 points since 2011.

And honestly, can we please stop talking about the Malone/Talbot thing already? We haven't had those players in over 6 years. It's time to move on. Malkin has been elite since then and neither were on the team.

For every star player, it's about comfort and trust, but let's not pretend Malkin needs Talbot, Malone, or Kulemin. What he needs are good hockey players.

Has Malkin been elite since then? Or was he elite only that one year with Kunitz? Think honestly on that . . . when outside the KMN year did even MN look elite?

But, by all means, go sign Boedkker if it makes you happy. He's good.

Is there some other Kulemin in the NHL that I don't know of? Because the Kulemin I'm thinking of is the worst possession forward on the Islanders, produces like an okay 3rd liner and gets paid like a legit top-6 forward. I hate the argument that the Pens "need to bring in someone to make Malkin better" not because the Pens don't need to do that, but because people just use that excuse to justify bringing in bad players (Bickell, M Foligno and Kulemin are 3 big examples of that).

Kulemin would work here if the Pens get him at $3 million AAV for Kunitz and they play him with Malkin and Kessel. Otherwise, I see no reason why the Pens should be interested in him.

Well, yeah, in that scenario it definitely would work.

But, as I keep saying, HBK has reminded me that there's something to be said for chemistry and where the line's best player in complemented by it's constituent parts.

Eh, whatever, the Pens probably are better off trading Malkin, because apparently however a player plays in general is how he'd look with anyone specifically.

I'm not interested in Kulemin because he's quote unquote good or anything else. I'm interested in Kulemin because since they were toddlers, he's been a security blanket, for want of a better description for Malkin. There's natural chemistry. Malkin trust him. If you see no value in that, then fine. Let's go sign Boeddker for 5 x 25.

 

[mpp9]

The Hagelin suggestion is garbage. Hagelin struggled for half a season on a new team. Kulemin hasn't produced more than 31 points since 2011.

And honestly, can we please stop talking about the Malone/Talbot thing already? We haven't had those players in over 6 years. It's time to move on. Malkin has been elite since then and neither were on the team.

For every star player, it's about comfort and trust, but let's not pretend Malkin needs Talbot, Malone, or Kulemin. What he needs are good hockey players.

He hasn't had a dominant season since 2012, though. Some of that is injuries. Some of that is on him. And some of that is the fact we haven't given him players that he can work with. The first two things he claims he's going to fix this offseason by staying in Pittsburgh and getting in better shape. The best he's had since 2012 in terms of linemates is Neal and a rotating cast on LW, which as we saw wasn't enough.

Look what Kane did this season with two players who work with his style of game. Look what happened to Toews without Saad and Sharp and a declining Hossa.

You don't need clones of past players who worked with Malkin, but there's definitely something to certain players fitting his type of game.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Has Malkin been elite since then? Or was he elite only that one year with Kunitz? Think honestly on that . . . when outside the KMN year did even MN look elite?

But, by all means, go sign Boedkker if it makes you happy. He's good.

Malkin-Neal looked pretty damn elite in 13-14, when Neal had his best season statistically as a Penguin and Malkin had the 2nd highest PPG in hockey. That's also not really relevant because the Pens don't have Neal anymore, so the idea that they're trying to find the 3rd piece for Malkin-Neal really isn't relevant here. If they don't break up HBK, they still need to find both pieces for Malkin's line.

Malkin-Neal looked elite when they had an actual top-6 LWer on their line, whether that be Jokinen, Sullivan or Kunitz. Outside of those 3, they either had busting young players (Jeffery, Tangradi or Boychuck) or guys who weren't LWers (Iginla).