Salary Cap: 2016-17 roster-building part IV | Contract chart, cap info in post #1

[Shwag33]

Jag68 wants to turn is into the NYR. Whoever signs stamkos is going to regret it.

He's not signing for less than 9 probably 10 mill a year; perhaps a discount in tampa no where else.

 

[plaidchuck]

I agree we need to add to the forward core, but imo you do that with drafting at this point.

Maybe after chasing the "winger for sid" dragon after ten years I've finally admitted defeat. Especially when they acquire a top wing like Kessel and he's plays his best with Nick Bonino.

 

[clefty]

I definitely don't want them to sign a UFA defenseman. That would be wasted money (again) just like the Shero era. We currently have 8 NHL defensemen. If we lose Lovejoy (hopefully), we're down to seven. If Schultz leaves because we fail to get him to take a pay cut, we still have Bengtsson and Prow to give long looks to. And if we lose Schultz, we can replace him with a more physical guy on the cheap (which is what we need anyway).

Trade Fleury to either Calgary or Toronto for the best package of picks/prospects possible. If either team is willing to take Kunitz, take a little less. If a deal involving JVR is possible, go for it. Otherwise, target Stamkos or Lucic as UFA's.

I want another big ticket forward. We have the supporting cast locked down. Kuhnhackl, Rust, Sundqvist. These are great role players. Simon, Sprong and Guentzel. These are guys who can eventually fill a cheap role in the top 9. Sheary and Wilson. These are plug-and-play anywhere guys.

Let Cullen go. It's been a fantastic ride. But bringing him back would be Billy Guerin, 2.0. You have to give Sundqvist that spot.

Hagelin, Hornqvist, Bonino. Very solid players, all of them. But none are core players. Say we signed a Stamkos and were forced to trade a Hornqvist. OK, no problem. Say we acquired JVR. Hagelin could stay or go at that point. A guy like Guentzel or maybe Simon could replace Bonino in 2017-18.

For me, the core is Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Letang, Murray. That's it, that's all. As Crosby and Malkin get older, it wouldn't be a bad idea to add another piece to the core.

Our prospect pool looked God-awful in October. It looks a lot better now. But we can't really project anybody from our prospect pool to become true CORE players for the Crosby/Malkin over-30 era.

So yeah, I want to go big-game hunting again this off-season. And why not? The Phil Kessel move worked out better than ANYBODY could have expected.

I would target Stamkos, Tarasenko (I doubt there is anything to the Hitch relationship issues but you never know), JVR and Lucic. MAYBE fall-back plans would be Radulov and Yakupov/Eberle.

Let's not make the same mistake as in post-2009, when we won a Cup with guys like Talbot, Fedotenko, Guerin and Kunitz in the top six and thought we could have just about anybody in the top six and win. And that was with Sid and Geno much, much younger.

Also, we haven't won the Stanley Cup yet, either. If we don't win against San Jose, perhaps there will be even more impetus to go get Crosby and Malkin even more help. If we win, perhaps some interesting players would be more interested in playing here.

Either way, I want to go after someone big. Use the Fleury situation to full advantage.

Awful.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Jag68 wants to turn is into the NYR. Whoever signs stamkos is going to regret it.

He's not signing for less than 9 probably 10 mill a year; perhaps a discount in tampa no where else.

Regret it? He's lethal. And he's young. Chances to sign a young franchise player as a UFA don't come around more than once a decade.

I agree we need to add to the forward core, but imo you do that with drafting at this point.

Maybe after chasing the "winger for sid" dragon after ten years I've finally admitted defeat. Especially when they acquire a top wing like Kessel and he's plays his best with Nick Bonino.

OK, great. I'd LOVE to add an impact winger via the draft.

So what's your plan? How do we get it done? We're currently picking twice in the 60's. That won't get it done.

 

[plaidchuck]

Is stamkos.lethal? For a franchise player, he disappears in the playoffs. The most non impact 50 goal scorer I've ever seen.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Why should the Penguins sign Stamkos? That's a terrible idea. He's a much worse winger than center, he's going to be hilariously overpaid this summer, he has blood clot issues now and signing him would completely eliminate any depth we had. It's a terrible idea.

 

[plaidchuck]

Why should the Penguins sign Stamkos? That's a terrible idea. He's a much worse winger than center, he's going to be hilariously overpaid this summer, he has blood clot issues now and signing him would completely eliminate any depth we had. It's a terrible idea.

I forget that he's naturally a center. That makes it even worse.

 

[plaidchuck]

Hmm looking at the numbers, you get pretty close to 10mm if you move maf and kunitz and not take on much salary. But that's not considering other cap implications.

Either way, I think a team line toronto will go balls to the wall and outbid everyone else.

 

[Coach Travis]

So do we just keep re-signing Bennett to 1-year deals as long as he's on RFA? Does he have any trade value whatsoever? I like the kid's potential but he's played 129 games in 4 years. Don't want to give up on him but what options are there for the team or even his own good?

 

[Empoleon8771]

So do we just keep re-signing Bennett to 1-year deals as long as he's on RFA? Does he have any trade value whatsoever? I like the kid's potential but he's played 129 games in 4 years. Don't want to give up on him but what options are there for the team or even his own good?

I'd trade him for a draft pick (probably like a 4th) or I'd try and find another reclamation guy to trade for. I've seen Bennett for Koko from Boston thrown around if Koko will leave for Russia if Boston doesn't move him, that does make a fair amount of sense.

 

[Sideline]

So do we just keep re-signing Bennett to 1-year deals as long as he's on RFA? Does he have any trade value whatsoever? I like the kid's potential but he's played 129 games in 4 years. Don't want to give up on him but what options are there for the team or even his own good?

I would keep signing him to 1 year deals. The guy has terrible luck, but it's not like he's playing through life threatening injuries. He clearly has the skills to be a ln NHL player. If he ever has a good run of health then maybe you flip him for a pick.

 

[plaidchuck]

Id move him as a courtesy to give him.a fresh start elsewhere.

 

[Riptide]

I definitely don't want them to sign a UFA defenseman. That would be wasted money (again) just like the Shero era. We currently have 8 NHL defensemen. If we lose Lovejoy (hopefully), we're down to seven. If Schultz leaves because we fail to get him to take a pay cut, we still have Bengtsson and Prow to give long looks to. And if we lose Schultz, we can replace him with a more physical guy on the cheap (which is what we need anyway).

Trade Fleury to either Calgary or Toronto for the best package of picks/prospects possible. If either team is willing to take Kunitz, take a little less. If a deal involving JVR is possible, go for it. Otherwise, target Stamkos or Lucic as UFA's.

While I'd most certainly kick the tires on Stamkos and Lucic, unless they really really want to come here and are willing to sign a shorter term contract (I'm not giving Lucic 5+ years) and a fairly friendly one, forget it. Someone is going to give those guys a lot of money and a lot of term. And while Stamkos is an amazing player, I'm not willing to overpay for him. If Lucic signs anything over 5 years, his team will likely regret it near the end - and he's only 27.

As for the blueline, I don't think we "need" size back there, I'm also not opposed to not going after someone in FA. If we can't sign Schultz, let Cole and DP be the 3rd pairing and other than a cheap useful #7D, leave it be. I have no issues giving up a 3rd for a Schultz type move at the deadline. I doubt Prow or Bengtsson will be NHL ready so soon - but who knows. If one of them is, then great, we save the 3rd at the TD.

I want another big ticket forward. We have the supporting cast locked down. Kuhnhackl, Rust, Sundqvist. These are great role players. Simon, Sprong and Guentzel. These are guys who can eventually fill a cheap role in the top 9. Sheary and Wilson. These are plug-and-play anywhere guys.

Let Cullen go. It's been a fantastic ride. But bringing him back would be Billy Guerin, 2.0. You have to give Sundqvist that spot.

Hagelin, Hornqvist, Bonino. Very solid players, all of them. But none are core players. Say we signed a Stamkos and were forced to trade a Hornqvist. OK, no problem. Say we acquired JVR. Hagelin could stay or go at that point. A guy like Guentzel or maybe Simon could replace Bonino in 2017-18.

For me, the core is Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Letang, Murray. That's it, that's all. As Crosby and Malkin get older, it wouldn't be a bad idea to add another piece to the core.

So many things. First off you do not "give" Sundqvist anything. If he's not good enough to take it, then him spending another season in the A is what's needed. With Rust, Sheary and Wilson all fighting for spots, there's going to be competition and injuries to cover for, so he'll probably get a chance. But honestly? He probably should spend another season down there if we want him to have any sort of offensive game. Also, if Cullen wants to stay for another season, you give it to him. The difference between him and Guerin is that one was asked to be a top 6/9 player - the other just a great 4th line guy - and there's a big difference there.

JVR and Stamkos do not replace Hagelin and Hornqvist. Sorry, they just don't. JVR is a lot closer to Hornqvist, but these two players bring something very specific to this team, and JVR and Stamkos do not replace that. Remember it takes a mix of talent, skills and styles to really have success.

I'm a huge Guentzel fan. But I doubt him or anyone else in the minors are going to jump into Bonino's spot after next season. I'm not saying he wouldn't be NHL ready (who knows). But penciling him in as our #3C is probably a little ambitious after just 1 pro season.

I'd also like to add another core piece. But we need to be careful how we go about it. I do not want to hamstring the team cap wise with a crappy contract (aka I'm not giving Stamkos 7x8m). If that's not possible, then I'm fine spending less money on bit players with shorter contracts and hoping that our prospects can fill the void.

Our prospect pool looked God-awful in October. It looks a lot better now. But we can't really project anybody from our prospect pool to become true CORE players for the Crosby/Malkin over-30 era.

So yeah, I want to go big-game hunting again this off-season. And why not? The Phil Kessel move worked out better than ANYBODY could have expected.

I would target Stamkos, Tarasenko (I doubt there is anything to the Hitch relationship issues but you never know), JVR and Lucic. MAYBE fall-back plans would be Radulov and Yakupov/Eberle.

Let's not make the same mistake as in post-2009, when we won a Cup with guys like Talbot, Fedotenko, Guerin and Kunitz in the top six and thought we could have just about anybody in the top six and win. And that was with Sid and Geno much, much younger.

Also, we haven't won the Stanley Cup yet, either. If we don't win against San Jose, perhaps there will be even more impetus to go get Crosby and Malkin even more help. If we win, perhaps some interesting players would be more interested in playing here.

Either way, I want to go after someone big. Use the Fleury situation to full advantage.

Pass on Lucic, Tarasenko and Radulov. One is going to get a lot more then he's worth and the other is such a risk that I'm more than willing to let another franchise go there. As for Tarasenko, we simply do not have the assets to get him. He's not available for a package of Sprong, DP and a 1st. If he's moved, a young stud top 6 winger is going the other way - and we do not have that player.

I don't disagree about sticking to the plan to get Sid and Geno more help (regardless of how this season pans out). But you can't just throw money at it. The cap will prevent that from happening, which means we need to be smart about it.

For me, my top 2 targets would be Eriksson and Okposo. I'd offer Eriksson 5x5m and Okposo 6x6m. My backup targets would be Brouwer (4x4.5m) and McGinn (4x3.75m). All will probably get better offers, but as long as we're in the ballpark, we can probably get one of those guys. I think PIT just showed the league exactly how good they are. Even if we lose, being the 2nd best team in the league (this year) should be pretty attractive considering few will be leaving via FA.

 

[mpp9]

No kidding! They will be rookies or sophomores and cost less than 700k a piece. Frolik is at 4.3 million per, Hansen's cap-hit is a nice 2.5

Yeah. Having a bunch of players on the roster making near league minimum allows you to spend a bit more to improve your team. Again, our guys will improve, but I'm not sure if their production is going to jump 50%+ next season.

I am Danish and love Jannik Hansen for what he is. But a consistent 20 goal scorer he is not and I much doubt you can find a Vancouver fan who believes that he is a top6 player.
A GREAT third liner, yes. But we have little need for that, and while JH is better than Rust for instance, the difference is not 4x the cap-hit worthy. Less so as you'd actually have to give up something of value to get JH because he IS good and has a nice contract.

The asking price is a legitimate gripe, but we have no idea what that is. Jim Benning has given zero indication he is difficult to deal with at this point.

As for the $/production. There's no argument against it. He's great value. We're paying Fehr nearly as much for being pretty much a PKer.

Frolik was a 4th liner with special teams time at Chicago. I liked him a lot when he was cheap, but his production is quite likely a product of opportunities he does not get with a good team. And at 4.3 million per year... well, no thank you to the thought of giving up value to pay him that. Even if I concede that he COULD be very good with Geno.

This doesn't compute. We'd be going after a player like him because we still do have holes at forward. We're not Chicago from years ago in terms of forward depth.

If we're acquiring him, it's to give him a shot in our top 9 playing with an elite offensive player. (I still think the stars play on separate lines moving forward) His production comes at ES, not on the PP. He'd get plenty of opportunity.

See, I totally agree with this in principle and I have been arguing for it for many years. But I'm not interested in adding slightly better, mature versions of youngsters who are developing into exactly these types of players, while costing almost nothing. At least not when we simply don't know what we have with them yet. Exhibit A: Wilson. Looked good before his injury. Would like to see more before we block his path entirely.

Our window to win is now to about 3-4 years from now. I'd rather add to the group for the time being and move guys as they become redundant.

I like Wilson, and I definitely wouldn't want him to sit out for most of the season because we buried him on the depth chart. This is all contingent on moving on from at least #14, if not both him and Fehr.

Kids are proving good enough to provide the depth for a cup run, and if we manage to move the guys we'd pretty much all want to, we can actually make room for someone who is capable of making an individual difference AND help Sid or Geno.

Again, great in theory, but our assets are limited. I'd rather buy low on a player who helps us the next few years and keep our futures and have this team not fall off of a cliff in 2019.

Anyway - Loui Eriksson.... say 5.5 million per as a free agent. Let Horny and Hags pitch it to him.

Yeah. That guy doesn't fit what we do at all. He's slow, pretty passive, relies on his smarts and is coming off of concussions as he enters his early 30s. Hell no.

Well.... agree to disagree that Sheary allows Sid to play his best game.... to me that is like saying that Kunitz brings out the best in Geno .

Sheary was good in the NY series and when he was reinserted into the lineup against Tampa. Sid was dominant in all of those games. Yes, Sid needs help to produce. No, he doesn't need an elite player to do that even as he ages, just someone a bit better than a kid who wasn't on the NHL radar as of a year ago.

 

[IcedCapp]

This.



I am almost entirely with you.
But I have to say that Rust is a given in the line-up next year. Never mind that his scoring heroics in the playoffs is not likely to be sustainable, his speed, tenacity and discipline is the direct on-ice extension of what Sullivan preaches. Him and Hags bring that identity more than anyone. With how it is working with Geno right now, I think you continue that, also because it is nice having someone with Geno who gives non-stop effort both ways. If Malkin makes it work with Rust and Sprong, there is money for a real upgrade for Sid.

I also consider it a given that Daley has a role and whereas I am fine with others getting chances over Cole, I think Cole is a regular on this team when its important. He is a third pairing D-man who kills penalties and plays hard. He has been EXCELLENT in the playoffs for his role and cap-hit. Underappreciated, IMO.

As regards the D in general, if we get to re-sign Schultz, I think we have all we need for the starting lineup. Hope we can add some quality prospects for depth and long term Daley replacement.

My exclusion of Rust has very little to do with Rust and everything to do with the fact that this coaching staff seems to have an allergy to putting forwards on their off-wings. It would have probably been smarter to simply say X - Malkin - Rust, but I think they'll want Sprong to make an impact straightaway so that they don't have to consider breaking up their 3 lines.

As far as defense, not listing someone doesn't mean I want them gone (I love Daley). It just means this team, with the emergence of Rust and Kuhnhackl, et al, opportunity to fine-tune its roster for the long term like never before. Finding another guy who can play 25-minutes WELL in all three zones is probably this team's biggest need.

Daley is fine as that guy, but not long term. That's all I was getting at there

 

[IcedCapp]

Pls no Stamkos

 

[Riptide]

OK, great. I'd LOVE to add an impact winger via the draft.

So what's your plan? How do we get it done? We're currently picking twice in the 60's. That won't get it done.

You mean 50s right? ANA's 2nd is ~54 and PITs is 59/60.

Duclair was drafted #80th. Kucherov was drafted #58. Trocheck #64. Gaudreau #104. Tatar #60. R.Smith #69. C. Smith #98. Pulkkinen #111. Nyqvist #121.

Don't tell us you can't find talent in the later half of the 2nd round - because you absolutely can. Is it a guarantee? Of course not, GMs make picks that don't pan out all the time. But don't act like it's impossible - especially as we're not asking for a Kucherov type guy. I'd be happy with Tatar and Smith (either). This is a deep draft. There'll be nice prospects there in the late 2nd round.

 

[Riptide]

I forget that he's naturally a center. That makes it even worse.

And like Staal, he doesn't like being a winger. If he really really wanted to come here to win (and would handle being a winger), I'd sign him to a 3 yr 21m contract. If it doesn't pan out, that's a pretty easy contract to move. The blood clots do not scare me at all. What he wants for a contract and the fact that he wants to be a C vs W does.

 

[mpp9]

I'd love to add a couple 2nds by dealing MAF and Kunitz. With four 2nds, you'd have a pretty damn good shot at landing one legit contributing player over the next few years.

 

[Riptide]

So do we just keep re-signing Bennett to 1-year deals as long as he's on RFA? Does he have any trade value whatsoever? I like the kid's potential but he's played 129 games in 4 years. Don't want to give up on him but what options are there for the team or even his own good?

Yes, he's an RFA for another couple of seasons. Keep signing him to 1 yr deals. I'm not depending on him to suddenly get healthy, but that's about all we can do. He's cheap as ****, and if he ever does get healthy, he's a very valuable piece. And really, other than as a throw in for someone or as a trade for someone similar (to give both a change of scenery), he holds very little value. We'd be much better off keeping him then moving him for his value.

Someone proposed Bennett for Pulkkinen earlier this year. DET fans actually seemed okay with it, as Pulk has had his own health issues. I think BB is the better player, but wouldn't be opposed to something like that where we're still getting a skilled guy back. If it doesn't pan out, so be it.

I'd trade him for a draft pick (probably like a 4th) or I'd try and find another reclamation guy to trade for. I've seen Bennett for Koko from Boston thrown around if Koko will leave for Russia if Boston doesn't move him, that does make a fair amount of sense.

Yeah BB for Koko would work too.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Hansen is an interesting option. He has had 30 points or has had a pace of 30 ES points in 08-09, 11-12, 12-13, 14-15 and 15-16 (36 in 11-12 and 15-16, 30 in 14-15 and paces of 42 in 12-13 and 30 points in 08-09), and he finished with 28 in 10-11. However, I don't know if he can play LWer and he'd only work here as the complementary guy in the top-6 (although Bonino-Hansen would be a great start to a 3rd line). If he can play LW, I'd say yes with absolutely no hesitation and dangle Fehr and another piece for him. Hansen-Bonino-Sprong would be an amazing 3rd line and I'd even be satisfied with a Hansen-Malkin-Sprong 2nd line.

 

[IcedCapp]

I'd rather have Jordan Staal than Stamkos. One doesn't need a map to find the dirty areas

 

[rintinw]

IMO there is absolutely no point to adding guys like Hansen and Frolik, never mind that they are unquestionably good players who fit this teams identity.

If you want to go 2 scoring lines approach then it's true. But if you want to go 3 scoring lines then you absolutely have to.

Reason is simple. What they bring is largely what we are getting from the young, cheap kids we have been blessed to see emerge this season... and Hagelin of course.

Those kid give you enough for really good 3rd or 4 lines. Maybe even as a 3rd part of a scoring line (provided there is really good player on the other wing, say Wheeler, Marchand, ...). But you can't use the as a main building block to construct a scoring line.

And about Sprong and Simon. It's awfully optimistic to assume that they take off and provide you that 'really good player on the other wing' next season. They may be those players in future. Or they may never be. To bet that they will and to add to that they will next season is very optimistic.

We have plenty of depth. What remains is to make sure Sid and Geno can go out there without anybody on their line being an actual impediment. Malkin with Rust and Kunitz works now both because Geno is playing very good D, but also for the reason that they're not that often played against opponents best. Sid on the other hand is, and he is a minus player for these playoffs with Horny having a team worst -5. Imagine if there was a left wing there to make every other team's top line have to settle for trying to minimize the damage rather then this being Sid's lot.

PIT has plenty of depth for 2 scoring lines, 3rd line and 4th line (that means also in purpose, i.e. you do not lean on your 3rd line to do significant part of your scoring).

PIT has no depth to create 3 scoring lines.

 

[IcedCapp]

If you want to go 2 scoring lines approach then it's true. But if you want to go 3 scoring lines then you absolutely have to.



Those kid give you enough for really good 3rd or 4 lines. Maybe even as a 3rd part of a scoring line (provided there is really good player on the other wing, say Wheeler, Marchand, ...). But you can't use the as a main building block to construct a scoring line.

And about Sprong and Simon. It's awfully optimistic to assume that they take off and provide you that 'really good player on the other wing' next season. They may be those players in future. Or they may never be. To bet that they will and to add to that they will next season is very optimistic.



PIT has plenty of depth for 2 scoring lines, 3rd line and 4th line (that means also in purpose, i.e. you do not lean on your 3rd line to do significant part of your scoring).

PIT has no depth to create 3 scoring lines.

Are you purposely misunderstanding what he wrote?

 

[KIRK]

Who's saying we'll get a stud?

I'm fine with a 2nd or 3rd and a slight upgrade at forward. If it came down to it, I'd just take the cap space and a pick.

Calgary has 3 second round picks and no goalie signed.

IMO there is absolutely no point to adding guys like Hansen and Frolik, never mind that they are unquestionably good players who fit this teams identity.

Reason is simple. What they bring is largely what we are getting from the young, cheap kids we have been blessed to see emerge this season... and Hagelin of course.

We have plenty of depth. What remains is to make sure Sid and Geno can go out there without anybody on their line being an actual impediment. Malkin with Rust and Kunitz works now both because Geno is playing very good D, but also for the reason that they're not that often played against opponents best. Sid on the other hand is, and he is a minus player for these playoffs with Horny having a team worst -5. Imagine if there was a left wing there to make every other team's top line have to settle for trying to minimize the damage rather then this being Sid's lot.

I concur that the move is to add a LW to complement Sid and Horny.

I don't see Kunitz as a top six solution beyond this season. He's a sell high situation right now off these playoffs.