WJC: 2016 — Russia Roster Talk

[Flynn84]

Gurianov was great at the first tournament for this team.
http://fhr.ru/national_teams/team/u20/info/tournament/?id_4=573#stat

 

[Yakushev72]

I thought Russia played better in the final. The officiating was clearly in the home teams favor. I don't know how you could really doubt that. I'm also a neutral, not from either country.

Home crowds put a lot of pressure on referees to call things their way, and Canadian crowds, IMO, are the loudest and most frenzied in support of their teams of anywhere in the World. Good for them, as it works in their favor.

 

[Peter25]

If that's true then the problem is with those Russian players, not the CHL. Maybe they just aren't good enough and can't keep up?

What do you exactly mean?

Those Russians who go to the CHL are the best ones in their age groups in Russia. But after a year or two there they regress and their less talented peers who stayed in Russia have surpassed them.

Provorov is better off in the CHL than Russia and he's on track to have a great NHL career, despite what clueless posters on here think.

Why do you think he's better off in the CHL than Russia? There is nothing to support that claim.

And I hope he has a good hockey career, but he likely won't.

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

And I hope he has a good hockey career, but he likely won't.

Based solely on the fact that he's played in the CHL? I mean, he did get drafted top 10 after playing in the WHL. If he's becoming a terrible player, it hasn't been obvious yet.

 

[MaxV]

Ok, why do Canadian fans take this argument personally?

"Russian posters claim that CHL can't develop talent."

This has NOTHING to do with CHL development system. There are a lot of other factors that come into play when it comes to Russian players in the CHL.

- New language to learn.
- Adjustment to new culture.
- Tough time fitting in.
- Adjustment to a new hockey system.
- Teenage kid away from his family.

Becoming a good professional hockey player is VERY tough without any additional obstacles. This makes things that much tougher.

CHL is great at developing Canadian players, players that can make a smooth transition from their local leagues to the CHL because they face no new challenges other then a step up in competition (which is healthy).

The most ideal situation for a Russian prospect is getting regular KHL time until early 20s, in some late-bloomer cases maybe even mid-20s. Second best league in the world, the same culture, the same language, the same hockey system, there is no better place for them.

Sure it'll take some time to adjust to NA game. It took Kuznetsov and Tarasenko a season. Panarin seems to be adjusting even faster.

 

[MaxV]

Problem is that some dumb-ass Russian teenagers (and their parents who don't know any better) think that CHL is a short-cut to NHL.

There are no short-cuts.

Playing in CHL doesn't guarantee a NHL career.

 

[vorky]

Problem is that some dumb-ass Russian teenagers (and their parents who don't know any better) think that CHL is a short-cut to NHL.

There are no short-cuts.

Playing in CHL doesn't guarantee a NHL career.

I agree with you here and in your previous post.

I see another problem for russians in CHL. When a player is drafted from CHL, he has to play juniors until 20 if I know. Instead of playing senior hockey in AHL.

There is a myth that russian players dont get chances in KHL in 17-20s. Great or good russian prospects get their chance in KHL. Look at KHL stats, this season is a record for U20 players in KHL for last five seasons (6,68%).

Who are best young russian players now? Kuznetsov, Panarin, Tarasenko, non of them played CHL, they stayed in KHL. And players moving from KHL to NHL in their 20s have a leverage, NHL clubs dont send them to AHL, because they dont want to play AHL...if the players are good, they will play NHL. Look at Buchnevich, I heard he did not want to play AHL, the same Panarin.

I remember that Ivan Barbashev was great prospects... where is he now? Definitelly not in NHL.

 

[sqw3r]

Ok, why do Canadian fans take this argument personally?

I think some canadians just can't accept that north american youth leagues are not the best place to develop for some players. They (for example, that guy from russia-czech republic thread) take it as a knock on their successful system instead of accepting differences.
I agree with your points, but i think the biggest problem for young russian players is not culture or language, but rather your forth one: learning new hockey style while they didn't have time to finish the first one. It's quite a mess and hinders their development the most.

 

[Peter25]

Problem is that some dumb-ass Russian teenagers (and their parents who don't know any better) think that CHL is a short-cut to NHL.

There are no short-cuts.

Playing in CHL doesn't guarantee a NHL career.

I agree. This is not Canada's problem. This is Russia's problem. And the biggest problem is that these idiots (players, parents, agents) still don't see the facts after generations of wasted Russian talent in the Canadian juniors.

 

[BlitzSnipe]

Bragin needs to take Provorov out of there, and perhaps Lazarev.

 

[MaxV]

Many people also view a PPG performance in CHL as if it's some sort of magnificent feat.

It's not like CHL is loaded with Connor McDavids and Sidney Crosbys.

90% of the league are "Joe Smiths" who will have to get a real job after their CHL careers are over.

Maybe some of them are good enough to play in some semi-pro League.

It's not even close to the competition that you are facing in KHL.



Why would NHL teams prefer that? Just so they feel safer that their prospect has already crossed to the NA side?

It's like a MLB team preferring that their prospect dominates Single A ball for several years, rather then plays against a much tougher competition in Triple A. BTW, I know that most here don't care about baseball, but it's actually a very similar sport in the way that there is often a multi-year development process for prospects after they are drafted.

 

[MaxV]

I agree. This is not Canada's problem. This is Russia's problem. And the biggest problem is that these idiots (players, parents, agents) still don't see the facts after generations of wasted Russian talent in the Canadian juniors.

But it should be NHL team's problem.

It's their prospects.

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

Who was that Russian player who injured for Zboril's hit.
I saw that hit well but i didn't recognize that Russian player.

Hopefully he's OK

 

[Peter25]

But it should be NHL team's problem.

It's their prospects.

Yeah, it is also the problem of that NHL team who drafts a Russian CHL player because he will never reach his potential.

But mainly it's a problem for Russian hockey which basically loses it's most talented players and gets them back as damaged goods. The main losers are the Russian national team and the KHL. The NHL also loses because many players that would otherwise play in the NHL are wasted in the Canadian juniors.

 

[sqw3r]

But it should be NHL team's problem.

It's their prospects.

i think that's not fair. NHL has the best product on ice in the whole world and they should not take care of some guys who decided that CHL is better for their development than staying at home. I think Panarin, Kuznetsov and Tarasenko are going to show our youth the right way to develop their game while the other side can offer only Kucherov.

 

[Appleyard]

If it was not for a CHL player Russia would have lost that game in regulation... Fazleev made a great play to keep that puck in the zone, walk up wall and slow play down, creating havoc for the Czech D.

I would not worry about Provorov coming back as damaged goods either... because in all likelihood the next time he will be playing an organised hockey game inside of Russia's borders will be the next time Russia host a Winter Olympics.

Would Provorov have been drafted higher than #7 overall if he stayed at Yaroslavl? He moved to North America at aged 14 an has progressed pretty well since then.

Also, people discounting being a PPG Dman as a draft eligible blue-liner in the toughest CHL league to score in?

Saying Provorov will 'likely not' have a good career is ridiculous. When was the last time a draft eligible WHL Dman was over PPG in his draft year and did not have a good NHL career?! The 1980's?

 

[sqw3r]

I would not worry about Provorov coming back as damaged goods either... because in all likelihood the next time he will be playing an organised hockey game inside of Russia's borders will be the next time Russia host a Winter Olympics.

I don't think he's will be chosen to play in world championship this year, but there is always a chance that Russia will get another world championship after 2020. And if he's really going to be a great player, he can already book the tickets to it, it's not like he's going to be busy with something like nhl playoffs

 

[Appleyard]

I don't think he's will be chosen to play in world championship this year, but there is always a chance that Russia will get another world championship after 2020. And if he's really going to be a great player, he can already book the tickets to it, it's not like he's going to be busy with something like nhl playoffs

Well... we are only 3pts out of a play-off spot with a game in hand right now... and the guy who was pegged as the 4th best of our defensive prospects is our best Dman already.


I mean... I understand that in general it would seem that young Russian players do develop better staying in Russia. But it is on a case by case basis... and Provorov's development from the age of 14 to present would certainly suggest that he is well on his way to being an exception.

 

[sqw3r]

Well... we are only 3pts out of a play-off spot with a game in hand right now... and the guy who was pegged as the 4th best of our defensive prospects is our best Dman already.


I mean... I understand that in general it would seem that young Russian players do develop better staying in Russia. But it is on a case by case basis... and Provorov's development from the age of 14 to present would certainly suggest that he is well on his way to being an exception.

I actually like Provorov and am putting big hopes on him, but he was godawful in the first period and though he got better in 2nd and 3rd he was still awful on PP (especially that in 2nd period when he destroyed all momentum two times in a row with inability to make a simple pass). Of course one WJC game is too early to give up on him and some posters here overreact because of their feelings against CHL. I'm not giving up on Zadorov any time soon too. We need good defence in the future and hopefully these guys can become part of it.

 

[Peter25]

i think that's not fair. NHL has the best product on ice in the whole world and they should not take care of some guys who decided that CHL is better for their development than staying at home. I think Panarin, Kuznetsov and Tarasenko are going to show our youth the right way to develop their game while the other side can offer only Kucherov.

Bure, Fedorov, Mogilny, Zubov, Konstantinov, Kovalev, Zhamnov, Yashin, Gonchar, Datsyuk, Khabibulin, Zhitnik, Malakhov, Ovechkin, Malkin, Kovalchuk, the Kozlovs, Yushkevich, Varlamov, Nabokov, Bobrovski, Kulemin, Karpovtsev, Mironov, Ozolinsh, Kasparaitis, the Markovs etc. did not convince them.

Neither will Panarin, Kuznetsov and Tarasenko.

And neither will Grigorenko, Zadorov, Kabanov and other busts.

They are going to continue going into their demises until the Russian Hockey Federation stops it.

 

[Peter25]

Would Provorov have been drafted higher than #7 overall if he stayed at Yaroslavl? He moved to North America at aged 14 an has progressed pretty well since then.

Yes. And Pavel Datsyuk would have been drafted far higher than 9th round had he come to play in the Canadian juniors instead staying in Russia until he turned 23.

So?

 

[sqw3r]

Neither will Panarin, Kuznetsov and Tarasenko.

I think it's kinda unfair to compare older players and a newer generation. These three guys show that you can have a successful start of career in KHL and then start in NHL without any problems. And they were still drafted later than they should've been (and Panarin wasn't drafted at all). I think in the next couple of years NHL managers would start drafting talented russians higher than before and it's going to play a role in their decision to stay in KHL until they finished their development too. Also i wouldn't put my hopes on FHR in anything.

 

[MaxV]

Provorov might be an exception (I REALLY hope so) because he came to NA at an younger age.

He really didn't know the Russian system yet.

A kid who is 17 already has a certain developmental path that he is on.

 

[vorky]

info from earlier thi week, IMO good news.

FHR Board approved Development strategy of russian kid and youth hockey. FHR launching inspectors who will control training process in youth teams. R.Rotenberg: "we can not afford 80% youth players to move to NA to train there.".

 

[BlitzSnipe]

So, strategy against the Finns? What do the guys have to change up for that game? Provorov and Lazarev have to get their stuff together. It's understandable that it was the first game and that there was a lot of pressure on these young players - BUT, the Czech team did not make such mistakes and they were under similar pressure.

Dergachev, with his size and power, is a pain in the neck for any defence and I think Bragin should exploit this guy's strengths. I also think Kamenev was playing better in the 3rd and if he hits his stride, good things can come of that. There was one situation where he should've just shot the puck but elected to make a fance between the legs pass - granted, this could've ended in a nice combination play, but sometimes the guy just has to shoot.