2015 Calgary Flames Training Camp Thread [Starts Thu Sept. 17]

[Lunatik]

If Engelland was a #7, then his play would have dropped off significantly and it would have killed us when he played top 4 minutes down the stretch and in the playoffs.

Using advanced stats as an argument for how bad he was, is crazy in a normal situation. Using them to prove a point about a defensive playing forward is worthy of being institutionalized. Also he played wing because of injuries not because he was bad defensively, you need to stop making **** up.

Brodie went from looking like a #1 to barely being a top 4? This is the most laughable crap I have heard. And of it were true, Brodie's ankle injury down the stretch would have been a more likely culprit than Engelland

Smid was ****ing terrible all year because he was overly tentative due to playing through a neck injury.

Engelland has shown much more than spurts of being an NHL player. You really need to stop lying to yourself about him because I have gone at alot of people about their terrible posts and statements about Engelland but this is the worst and most inaccurate I have ever seen.

 

[SaintMorose]

If Engelland was a #7, then his play would have dropped off significantly and it would have killed us when he played top 4 minutes down the stretch and in the playoffs.

Using advanced stats as an argument for how bad he was, is crazy in a normal situation. Using them to prove a point about a defensive playing forward is worthy of being institutionalized. Also he played wing because of injuries not because he was bad defensively, you need to stop making **** up.

Brodie went from looking like a #1 to barely being a top 4? This is the most laughable crap I have heard. And of it were true, Brodie's ankle injury down the stretch would have been a more likely culprit than Engelland

Smid was ****ing terrible all year because he was overly tentative due to playing through a neck injury.

Engelland has shown much more than spurts of being an NHL player. You really need to stop lying to yourself about him because I have gone at alot of people about their terrible posts and statements about Engelland but this is the worst and most inaccurate I have ever seen.

It's not just the advanced stats those are just what people get a chance to look at all off-season or if they like watching the scoring chances for / against after each game (which Engelland likes to lead the way down on despite playing far less minutes than some of his peers)

He's been failing the eye test for a long time how much of his partnership with TJ involved him standing in front of the net and never changing his passing lane coverage while Brodie was forced to track the puck/opposition on both sides?

How often did Engelland retrieve a puck from the opposition while playing with Smid?

Why do we see guys like Brodie and Russell racing back to make up for poor line change choices each week after his shift ends?

Why is he -16 beside a +15 partner for half the season (yeah on it's own +/- is a dumb stat but relative to teammates, when we know who has the tougher opposition and starts we can spot red flags)

There's a big contrast in what kind of toughness is functional on a NHL team now

A guy like Kanzig who reads lanes really well, plays systems perfectly, and keeps up with rushes both ways is a good example of what we want out of tough players (though I'd love for him to get stronger on his stick carrying&shooting after my viewings)

A guy like Engelland who cannot retrieve/move a puck makes it difficult to move the puck out of our end without a much better Dman anchored to him (we saw that his zone start v finish with Smid was maybe the worst I've ever seen it was our goalie's responsibility some shifts to get them off the ice), a guy who struggles in reading defensive coverage and sees more breakdowns in the time he's on the ice than any other Dman (besides maybe Smid last year, but Smid wasn't moving well at all likely due to nagging injuries). We can watch him and see this.

We can watch Brodie make up the best pairing in the league last year and at the same time not be a better pairing then Wideman and Russell most nights after Gio went down, that's not an advanced stats argument that's just watching the games play and unfortunately there isn't something tangible I can measure and put up to back up these eye-test failings (except for the ones that coincide with 'advanced' metrics).

I'm sorry I refer to some of these stats, but they give a bit of a concrete picture for people who aren't specifically tuning in to Engelland's on-ice play. I know you have gone to real-time stats (of which the Flames are the worst team in the league to use those for as our home trackers are night and day in what they count compared to the rest of the league) to defend a guy like Colborne, and this is the same thing. No stat is going to tell the whole picture the way watching a player for a series of games will, but watching this guy drag down great players like TJ for 16 + minutes is just depressing for me, when we have a guy I'm not even a big fan of in Tspoon who has always been better with his reads and first pass.

And to clarify I wasn't saying Brodie barely looked like a at top 4 Dman but that his pairing when it wasn't on par with Russell Wideman in many of the nights he played with Engelland could barely be seen as a 1st or 2nd paring. That Russell Wideman 2nd pair was the minimum you could really have as a 2nd pair on a playoff team.

 

[Lunatik]

SM it's abundantly clear you have some sort of issue with Engelland and the fact you refer to advanced stats as providing "a concrete picture" is beyond laughable. Engelland is a decent bottom pairing defenseman no more, no less. If he was better he'd be a top 4 defenseman rather than a bottom pairing guy. I think you and many others focus too hard on bottom pair and lower end forwards and it extrapolates their perceived flaws in the eyes of those people.

 

[SaintMorose]

SM it's abundantly clear you have some sort of issue with Engelland and the fact you refer to advanced stats as providing "a concrete picture" is beyond laughable. Engelland is a decent bottom pairing defenseman no more, no less. If he was better he'd be a top 4 defenseman rather than a bottom pairing guy. I think you and many others focus too hard on bottom pair and lower end forwards and it extrapolates their perceived flaws in the eyes of those people.

If we both agree he's no more than a bottom pairing guy then can we agree they need to stop playing him with TJ and expanding his minutes. As I've said he's not a trade target for me or someone who needs to come off the Flames roster as he brings elements that help us in stretches, I'm only frustrated when they play him more and more.

My biggest problem with Engelland is after I spent a long time defending him while he was playing with Smid in what was by every statistic the worst pairing any of the playoff teams iced last year (I liked his skating, aggressiveness, and shot), he got to play with a guy that has made every player better around him and still looked lost when facing top 9 forwards, couldn't complete passes, and dragged down Brodie much harder than guys like Diaz and Schlemko did in the (admittedly limited) minutes they shifted into the top 4.

 

[Lunatik]

If we both agree he's no more than a bottom pairing guy then can we agree they need to stop playing him with TJ and expanding his minutes. As I've said he's not a trade target for me or someone who needs to come off the Flames roster as he brings elements that help us in stretches, I'm only frustrated when they play him more and more.

My biggest problem with Engelland is after I spent a long time defending him while he was playing with Smid in what was by every statistic the worst pairing any of the playoff teams iced last year (I liked his skating, aggressiveness, and shot), he got to play with a guy that has made every player better around him and still looked lost when facing top 9 forwards, couldn't complete passes, and dragged down Brodie much harder than guys like Diaz and Schlemko did in the (admittedly limited) minutes they shifted into the top 4.

I agree he shouldn't be with Brodie, I took issue to you calling him a #7 and trying to make him sound worse than he really is.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Engelland will likely play with Russell this year, that will help him out immensely.

 

[SaintMorose]

Engelland will likely play with Russell this year, that will help him out immensely.

And that's fair if his job is to bring extra toughness/aggressiveness to a pair with a guy who would be a phenomenal #5 and has the speed to cover for him we could have a very effective Engelland this season.

 

[Lunatik]

And that's fair if his job is to bring extra toughness/aggressiveness to a pair with a guy who would be a phenomenal #5 and has the speed to cover for him we could have a very effective Engelland this season.

That was part of the reason him and Smid were terrible together. Combined with Smid playing terribly they both have the same deficiencies in their game and just do not compliment each other well. I think this season we see a couple regular combinations. I think we see #1 to start and then if Smid returns I think we see #2

#1.

Giordano/Hamilton
Brodie/Wideman
Russell/Engelland​

#2.

Giordano/Hamilton
Russell/Brodie
Smid/Wideman​

 

[Lunatik]

I expect the first bigger round of cuts will come Monday night or early Tuesday.

 

[Dack]

That was part of the reason him and Smid were terrible together. Combined with Smid playing terribly they both have the same deficiencies in their game and just do not compliment each other well. I think this season we see a couple regular combinations. I think we see #1 to start and then if Smid returns I think we see #2

#1.

Giordano/Hamilton
Brodie/Wideman
Russell/Engelland​

#2.

Giordano/Hamilton
Russell/Brodie
Smid/Wideman​

I agree that Dougie will play with Gio which should be good for him, Gio now is on another level than Chars of the last two years.

 

[Volica]

Waaay too many people closing their minds and refusing to consider just how flexible this roster can be. Case in point; four months ago it was borderline sacrilegious to move Hudler away from the first line. Now?

"Benny and Huds is a great combination," Hartley said. "We know what Johnny and Mony did last year and we’re trying to find some combinations and chemistry in between the other guys. In order to have a solid lineup we don’t want to be one-trick-pony’s where we load up one line. We try to get some balance in our lineup where everyone is working the same way.​

Primary goal is balanced scoring but there's some contractual reasons why it's a necessity to see how Gaudreau and Monahan perform away from Hudler, and vice versa.

Anyway, I guess eventually folks will understand that what made sense to Hartley in the midst of a desperate playoff doesn't necessarily carry over to a brand new season.

-----


Hartley did say he wanted to see Frolik do even better than the 42 points he got last year. Based on that yeah, I'd agree, good chance he slots in somewhere on the top six, likely the top line.

And if/when Gaudreau and Monahan struggle, I wouldn't be surprised to see Hudler+Monahan and Gaudreau+Bennett. One of the good things about this roster is that Gaudreau, Bennett and Hudler seem to have chemsitry with almost everyone. And then guys like Frolik, Jooris, Byron, etc., that can play anywhere in the lineup.

I love the idea of separating out Hudler from Monny and Gaudreau; and giving Bennett a pure offensive player that he can learn from a feed off of (a la Monahan/Johnny from last year). Another benefit of moving him away from those two, is that it may slow down his point production, which you could feed into either a movable UFA (Jones, etc) or someone who is signed long term, and won't be requesting a major bump in salary over the offseason (Frolik comes to mind).

It'll really be interesting to see what comes out of camp as the lineup; it's pretty much guesswork at this time.

 

[danmcd15]

The only way Hudler should not at the very least start the season with JG and SM would be that our depth lines are not producing at all. Hudler was the driving force on that top line and you don't remove him from it unless there is a glaring need to distribute skill to line 2.

Bennett (on paper) will be an excellent fit with Frolik on line 2. Their LWer is interchangeable for me but Colbourne or Bouma could fit.

 

[danmcd15]

Gaudreau Monahan Hudler
Colbourne Bennett Frolik
Bouma Backlund Jooris
Ferland Stajan Shore

Giordano Brodie
Russell Hamilton
Engelland Wideman

Backlund has more experience but Bennett doesn't need to be sheltered unless he falters early. If that's the case, interchange lines 2 and 3 at C.

I'd have my first Power play D pairing as Gio and Hamilton.

Second pair would be Brodie and Wideman. Russ is in a contract year and this could be a way to maybe lower his point total in order to keep him. (sorry Russ, I just don't want to lose you to free agency, take it as a compliment)

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Engelland will likely play with Russell this year, that will help him out immensely.

I actually think it will expose him in ways he hasn't been exposed, unless Russell can stay on his feet. The Ministry of Defense needs a player who can move the puck out of the zone well, while not flat on his stomach blocking shots.

 

[Lunatik]

5 cuts made today

http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=779855

The Calgary Flames announced today that they have assigned Tyson Baillie (Kelowna/WHL), Riley Bruce (North Bay/OHL), Pavel Karnaukhov (Calgary/WHL), and Mason Marchment (Erie/OHL) to their respective junior teams and have released Taylor Burke from training camp. The Flames have 59 players at camp (7x goalies, 20x defencemen, 32x forwards).

 

[Lunatik]

updated camp roster

GOALTENDERS

# | Player Name | Contract Status | Roster Status
1 | Hiller, Jonas | One Way (w) |
31 | Ramo, Karri | One Way (w) |
36 | Gillies, Jon | Two Way |
37 | Ortio, Joni | One Way (w) |
40 | Simpson, Kent | AHL Contract |
70 | Schneider, Nick | Tryout |
72 | McDonald, Mason | Two Way |

DEFENSEMEN

# | Player Name | Contract Status | Roster Status
3 | Murray, Douglas (w) | Tryout |
4 | Russell, Kris (w) | One Way |
5 | Giordano, Mark (w) | One Way |
6 | Wideman, Dennis (w) | One Way |
7 | Brodie, T.J. (w) | One Way |
15 | Smid, Ladislav (w) | One Way | Injured
26 | Wotherspoon, Tyler | Two Way |
27 | Hamilton, Dougie (w) | One Way |
29 | Engelland, Deryk (w) | One Way |
33 | Stevenson, Dustin | AHL Contract |
43 | Nakladal, Jakub | Two Way |
44 | Wilson, Ryan (w) | Tryout |
50 | Sieloff, Patrick | Two Way |
53 | Morrison, Kenney | Two Way |
54 | Andersson, Rasmus | Two Way |
55 | Johnson, Aaron (w) | Tryout |
58 | Kylington, Oliver | Two Way |
61 | Kulak, Brett | Two Way | Injured
63 | Culkin, Ryan | Two Way |
73 | Kanzig, Keegan | Two Way |
98 | Bruce, Riley | Unsigned Draft Pick | Cut 09.20.15

FORWARDS

# | Player Name | Contract Status | Roster Status
8 | Colborne, Joe (w) | One Way |
11 | Backlund, Mikael (w) | One Way |
13 | Gaudreau, Johnny | Two Way |
16 | Jooris, Josh (w) | Two Way |
17 | Bouma, Lance (w) | One Way |
18 | Stajan, Matt (w) | One Way |
19 | Jones, David (w) | One Way |
21 | Raymond, Mason (w) | One Way |
22 | Shore, Drew (w) | Two Way |
23 | Monahan, Sean (w) | Two Way |
24 | Hudler, Jiri (w) | One Way |
28 | Poirier, Emile | Two Way |
32 | Byron, Paul (w) | One Way | Injured
45 | Klimchuk, Morgan | Two Way |
46 | Arnold, Bill | Two Way |
47 | Baillie, Tyson | Tryout | Cut 09.20.15
48 | Van Brabant, Bryce | Two Way |
51 | Agostino, Ken | Two Way |
52 | Bollig, Brandon (w) | One Way |
56 | Lomberg, Ryan | AHL Contract |
57 | Grant, Derek | Two Way |
60 | Granlund, Markus | Two Way |
62 | Carroll, Austin | Two Way |
64 | Hathaway, Garnet | Two Way |
65 | Elson, Turner | Two Way |
67 | Frolik, Michael (w) | One Way |
71 | Smith, Hunter | Two Way |
76 | Riley, Blair | Tryout |
78 | Heard, Mitchell | Tryout |
79 | Ferland, Michael (w) | One Way |
85 | Marcotte, Louick | AHL Contract |
86 | Burke, Taylor | Tryout | Cut 09.20.15
87 | Marchment, Mason | Tryout | Cut 09.20.15
88 | Mangiapane, Andrew | Unsigned Draft Pick |
89 | Karnaukhov, Pavel | Unsigned Draft Pick | Cut 09.20.15
93 | Bennett, Sam | Two Way |

(w) indicates a player must clear waivers to be sent to the AHL is signed to an AHL contract.

 

[Bouma Fett*]

Karnaukhov looked way better than I thought he would. Still a longshot as an NHLer probably, but I thought he looked pretty decent

 

[YMCMBYOLO]

Heard Ferland played pretty good today

 

[Yung Rotini]

Baillie

Ahh well.

 

[Calculon]

Karnaukhov showed promise. Think he could have a future in the NHL.

 

[Lunatik]

Karnaukhov showed promise. Think he could have a future in the NHL.

Just cane to post about Johnson, good for him. I suspect he will be named captain in Stockton.

 

[Bouma Fett*]

I'm glad, especially with the Culkin injury. I think he will help add some stability to both the blueline and the team in general.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

updated camp roster

Pretty sure Heard is on an AHL contract.

 

[Caged Great]

Here's a breakdown of each of Group A and B's players through the weekend.

http://www.firesidechat.ca/2015-16/TrainingCamp-GroupA
http://www.firesidechat.ca/2015-16/TrainingCamp-GroupB

Group C will be posted later.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I actually think it will expose him in ways he hasn't been exposed, unless Russell can stay on his feet. The Ministry of Defense needs a player who can move the puck out of the zone well, while not flat on his stomach blocking shots.

That's actually a very good point. But I do think our coaches are smart enough to adapt and address it if it becomes an issue. I also think that if Smid comes in healthy this year, that he's really going to surprise some people.