2015-2016 Roster Talk: East Coast Thinks We Suck Edition(MOD WARNING) post# 107

[KINGS17]

Top scorer on the team for the past 8 years.
Top defensive forward on the team for the past 8 years.
Top scorer both years the Kings won the cup.
Most minutes of all forwards on the Kings.

Kopitar averages 3 minutes MORE PER GAME than Carter. Last year was the closest they had in average ice time of 1.5 minutes, and that's the one year they missed the playoffs. Every season aside from last, Kopitar has averaged 2 minutes more per game.

So Carter, who is in good shape, still cannot outpace Kopitar whether it's offensively or defensively, despite having lesser minutes to allow for higher peak performance and playing against secondary defense.

Since the 2012/2013 Season (I left out 11/12 since Carter was injured for most of it):
Kopitar: 67 G, 144 A, 211 pts
Carter: 81 G, 64 A, 145 pts

Your assertion that he hasn't carried the load consistently is, in my opinion, completely out of touch.

Your opinion that Kopitar is consistent is, in my opinion, completely out of touch. Yes, he has done much, but I can recall only one or two playoff series where he really put the team on his shoulders, most notably the San Jose series in 2014.

He's a great player, but is he worthy of being paid as if he is a top 3 in the NHL? No, and his deal prevents adding the necessary depth around him for the Kings to truly contend in coming years.

Is Carter getting paid to do more? Salaries are relative. I don't think Anze Kopitar's contribution to the Kings success is worth more than double what a guy like Muzzin gets for example.

Remember when in Detroit no one was paid more than Lidstrom, and Lidstrom made pretty reasonable salary demands? Kopitar had that opportunity here, and he didn't take it.

 

[Kingspiracy]

nah, everyone's drunk around here from at least from 2 or 3 pm local time, celebration time and a huge party. peter prevc, anže's good friend, just won the ski flying world champion title, breaking the hill record twice in two days. it's a national sport here, +8.000 fans went to austria to witness it. take a look, great balls of fire:

Jeez, you'd have to have stones to do that.

 

[mrkolice]

Jeez, you'd have to have stones to do that.

yeah, stones. look at this guy from norway, he finished 4th. that joy just immediately after he fell. it's a bit like hockey, from a mental perspective, need balls for that. he landed at 100km/h speed and with 5g force and it's almost flat there.

 

[KINGS17]

Jeez, you'd have to have stones to do that.

 

[KingCanadain1976]

read that there were ranger scouts at the reign game last night. Also read king have scouts at the ranger game today. I wonder what they're looking at ?

 

[Kingspiracy]

Your opinion that Kopitar is consistent is, in my opinion, completely out of touch. Yes, he has done much, but I can recall only one or two playoff series where he really put the team on his shoulders, most notably the San Jose series in 2014.

He's a great player, but is he worthy of being paid as if he is a top 3 in the NHL? No, and his deal prevents adding the necessary depth around him for the Kings to truly contend in coming years.

Is Carter getting paid to do more? Salaries are relative. I don't think Anze Kopitar's contribution to the Kings success is worth more than double what a guy like Muzzin gets for example.

Remember when in Detroit no one was paid more than Lidstrom, and Lidstrom made pretty reasonable salary demands? Kopitar had that opportunity here, and he didn't take it.

I think Kopi's new contract worries most Kings fans. Unfortunately 10 mill seems to be the going rate for a guy of his caliber. It doesn't look like he will take a discount, but if he isn't re signed we wont be contending for jack **** next year let alone after that.

How will our center depth look without him? Can Carter take the load as a 1c fulltime? Fortunately we haven't really had to find out since Anze is a horse (touch wood)

It sucks to burn so much cap space on one player, but luckily Kopi is a very special player and one of the few players "worth it"

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Your opinion that Kopitar is consistent is, in my opinion, completely out of touch. Yes, he has done much, but I can recall only one or two playoff series where he really put the team on his shoulders, most notably the San Jose series in 2014.

He's a great player, but is he worthy of being paid as if he is a top 3 in the NHL? No, and his deal prevents adding the necessary depth around him for the Kings to truly contend in coming years.

Is Carter getting paid to do more? Salaries are relative. I don't think Anze Kopitar's contribution to the Kings success is worth more than double what a guy like Muzzin gets for example.

Remember when in Detroit no one was paid more than Lidstrom, and Lidstrom made pretty reasonable salary demands? Kopitar had that opportunity here, and he didn't take it.

Dude, he's led the playoffs in scoring twice, and that 2012 team's magic line was Brown-Kopitar-Williams. Let's just be publicly honest and say that no amount of heavy lifting will justify that contract for you.

Kopitar is literally one of the most consistent players in the league as well as (knock on wood) one of the most durable. Even his month-to-month splits being "hurrr slump time" are minimal.

Kopitar's consistency is not a question you can factually argue against in any way.

i do agree with the Lidstrom line though but those were also different times where you could hire a bunch of mercs. It wouldn't have mattered what Niklas was paid because Holland could have paid 22 guys the same.

 

[KINGS17]

I think Kopi's new contract worries most Kings fans. Unfortunately 10 mill seems to be the going rate for a guy of his caliber. It doesn't look like he will take a discount, but if he isn't re signed we wont be contending for jack **** next year let alone after that.

How will our center depth look without him? Can Carter take the load as a 1c fulltime? Fortunately we haven't really had to find out since Anze is a horse (touch wood)

It sucks to burn so much cap space on one player, but luckily Kopi is a very special player and one of the few players "worth it"

Again, not so much against Kopitar's contract as I am the idea that it's the going rate. The $10.5M deals received by Kane and Toews are, in my opinion, going to be proved to be big mistakes.

I agree with you on the chances of contending without Kopitar. I think the chances of contending with him and significantly less depth are almost equally diminished.

 

[funky]

nah, everyone's drunk around here from at least from 2 or 3 pm local time, celebration time and a huge party. peter prevc, anže's good friend, just won the ski flying world champion title, breaking the hill record twice in two days. it's a national sport here, +8.000 fans went to austria to witness it. take a look, great balls of fire:

big brass balls on that dude.

I will chip in with a few of my thoughts on Kopitar's contract.

1) 10 mil for any player in this financial market is a huge gamble. Wether it be Kopi, Doughty, Crosby, Kane, McDavid, whoever, committing 1/7 of an unstable cap to 1 player may look very foolish in the long run.

2) Kopitar may not be a generational talent, but he is the complete player. He can score, pass, play elite defense, win draws all while wearing down other teams using his bullish strength to create room, protect the puck, and keep the play cycling. He is a very unique player that has 2 Stanley Cup ring, fits well in a dressing room, and has bleed Kings colors since we drafted him.

3) If he goes, so do our chances. Yes 10 million buys two decent players, but:

a)who would replace the massive hole left, no one in our system
b) do free agents even want to come here, and if its UFA, its gonna be expensive anyways


This is one of those we just gotta suck it up and do it. I do think 9.5 would have been fair in this market with a Home Town discount of 9 but that guy has been instrumental in bringing the Hometown 2 cups and would have got better offers if he went UFA.

We have movable parts on this roster that may end up nickkle and diming us to death so to speak.

I love Cliffy and I love King but one of those contracts can be replaced by someone making less money next year. If we trade Cliffy or King in the offseason I am sure a Mersch will step in. If Greene comes back he too can be traded, rather put the money towards a Schenn extension. Yes Brown needs to go but can anyone honestly say or think a team will touch that. Even eating 1.5 a year its still not gonna fly.

 

[KingCanadain1976]

hmmm eklund has us interested in Yandle. There may actually something to that rumour

 

[funky]

hmmm eklund has us interested in Yandle. There may actually something to that rumour

he pulled it from his butt. They would have to take our Captian back with would never happen.

 

[KingCanadain1976]

he pulled it from his butt. They would have to take our Captian back with would never happen.

with our scout at their game and there scouts at the ontario game there is some fact behind it.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

he pulled it from his butt. They would have to take our Captian back with would never happen.

I'm with KC on this one but not because of Eklund, there's just a lot of links there, including DL's love for the player.

I don't like it because I think it's a risky fit (does he play with Doughty or what?) vs. what it would cost but there are worse options.

 

[Kingspiracy]

Again, not so much against Kopitar's contract as I am the idea that it's the going rate. The $10.5M deals received by Kane and Toews are, in my opinion, going to be proved to be big mistakes.

I agree with you on the chances of contending without Kopitar. I think the chances of contending with him and significantly less depth are almost equally diminished.

Its possibly got to a stage where Kopis agent has drawn a line in the sand and said "if you can't pay him 80mill hes going to free agency". So would you risk waiting to see if anyone else would offer it?

 

[King'sPawn]

Your opinion that Kopitar is consistent is, in my opinion, completely out of touch. Yes, he has done much, but I can recall only one or two playoff series where he really put the team on his shoulders, most notably the San Jose series in 2014.

He's a great player, but is he worthy of being paid as if he is a top 3 in the NHL? No, and his deal prevents adding the necessary depth around him for the Kings to truly contend in coming years.

Is Carter getting paid to do more? Salaries are relative. I don't think Anze Kopitar's contribution to the Kings success is worth more than double what a guy like Muzzin gets for example.

Remember when in Detroit no one was paid more than Lidstrom, and Lidstrom made pretty reasonable salary demands? Kopitar had that opportunity here, and he didn't take it.

As for Carter, you brought him up. Don't say what Carter brings, then when Kopitar's superior contributions are brought up, just shrug it off with "Is Carter paid more? Salaries are relative." Keep in mind he signed a longer contract at the age of what, 27? When the cap was lower.

Muzzin is grossly underpaid. He should probably be making $6 million right now.

We get it. You don't think Kopitar deserves the money. But your only defense for Kopitar hasn't carried the burden is "I only remember ...."which really says you aren't interested in having a discussion about a player's contributions. Which is fine, use the discussion board as you want within the rules. Just don't expect people to enjoy having discussions with you when you continue to pass off opinion as fact and dismissing valid counterarguments ("Kopitar needs to shoulder more responsibility, because I remember only two playoff series he stood out"), as well as passing off temporary situations as permanent ones ("The Canadian dollar is dropping").

They are valid concerns, but your inflexible tone and rhetoric doesn't excite me to come back and discuss further with you.

 

[KingCanadain1976]

I'm with KC on this one but not because of Eklund, there's just a lot of links there, including DL's love for the player.

I don't like it because I think it's a risky fit (does he play with Doughty or what?) vs. what it would cost but there are worse options.

i think he would play with McNabb on 2nd pairing. Moving muzzin back with drew and leaving martinez and scheen on bottom pairing. I think Yandle would get 1st pp with drew giving us a better one 2 punch on the first pp.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

i think he would play with McNabb on 2nd pairing. Moving muzzin back with drew and leaving martinez and scheen on bottom pairing. I think Yandle would get 1st pp with drew giving us a better one 2 punch on the first pp.

That's actually a really intriguing thought, I was trying to envision where McNabb would go.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Again, not so much against Kopitar's contract as I am the idea that it's the going rate. The $10.5M deals received by Kane and Toews are, in my opinion, going to be proved to be big mistakes.

I agree with you on the chances of contending without Kopitar. I think the chances of contending with him and significantly less depth are almost equally diminished.

And then what is the alternative? Name the center that would take his place on the roster. It was always damned if they do, damned if they don't. A decrease in proven depth with him, a decrease in a top player without him. There's no good or easy answer, so take your chances with the top player, hope he remains productive, and see if you can fill in the rest of the roster. Which, in theory, should be easier to do than trying to replace Kopitar.

 

[KingCanadain1976]

That's actually a really intriguing thought, I was trying to envision where McNabb would go.

wow 2 agreeing posts in a row i was beginning to think that wasn't possible i jk of course Now to wear we will probably disagree the price of getting yandle I think it would have to be pearson with more than just yandle coming back to us.

 

[funky]

with our scout at their game and there scouts at the ontario game there is some fact behind it.

don't get my hopes up, I want to remain bitter today after reading half the Kings related stuff on the main board.

If I didn't know any better after reading the mainboard, John Scott is apparently the next Wayne Gretzky, Lombardi must have fell of the turnip truck and Dustin Brown is still killing baby seals on his off days.

Plus it is -30 C here and the loonie just hit .68 cents. Vegas for a week is gonna be expensive

 

[KINGS17]

And then what is the alternative? Name the center that would take his place on the roster. It was always damned if they do, damned if they don't. A decrease in proven depth with him, a decrease in a top player without him. There's no good or easy answer, so take your chances with the top player, hope he remains productive, and see if you can fill in the rest of the roster. Which, in theory, should be easier to do than trying to replace Kopitar.

The alternative is the one that Dean offered Kopitar, but Anze had to have as much money as he could get and still stay in LA. That's his prerogative. It's my prerogative not to like it very much, because I think his agent and Kopitar used false comps that are not realistic in today's cap environment.

They knew that they had Dean over a barrel and they took FULL advantage.

 

[Asheru]

Parise and Suter both got $98M deals each when they hit free agency...when the cap was lower, four years ago.

Shea Weber has made $14M a season for the last 4 years, and will make $12M a season for the next two.

The comps are out there, and they are real. What other hockey players make in actual salary matters. That's not an opinion, it's fact.

We're acting like it's Kopitar's job to fix the problem created by the Brown contract? It is not. He could easily have left us holding the bag with no hope of contending again for years and years. Instead he took less than what he could get on the open market--and a smaller cap hit than Toews--to stay.

Nor is this salary increase the doomsday scenario some are picturing. We're talking like $2M difference between what Dean probably wanted to pay and what he paid. That amount in a $70M ish cap is not the difference between contending and blowing it all up. Never has been, never will be. Heck. We are carrying more than $3M in dead cap space RIGHT NOW because of Richards, and still icing a top contender. Fortunately the sting of that gets mitigated going forward.

This is Lombardi's job to work around, just like we navigate turnover every year. A bit more caution where Richards was concerned would have helped a ton, but he can work around it.

It is a good, good day for Kings hockey.

 

[KINGS17]

Minnesota and Nashville have multiple cups too. Definitely the model to follow.

 

[Kingspiracy]

Minnesota and Nashville have multiple cups too. Definitely the model to follow.

The Kings/Hawks are the model to follow, we make the rules mwaahahaha

 

[SettlementRichie10]

The Brown contract has been discussed extensively, so I don't know about your "conspiracy of silence" when it comes to Brown. His contract is immovable with the current state of the salary cap unless you are willing to pay a heavy penalty, in the form of what would probably be a young cheap roster player (more depth gone), in order to move him.

Kopitar was going to get a raise. He insisted on the max raise he could get, and still remain in LA. He better be ready to carry the load on a more consistent basis, because his contract does affect the depth around him. The Kings are very fortunate to have a player like Jeff Carter in the lineup that stays in top physical condition and looks like he will be able to provide a sustainable high level of play for quite some time for a modest cost.

One can tell from all of the comments in his interviews that Dean went to Kopitar and asked him to take less in order to make the probability of the Kings winning more cups higher. As a fan, should I be happy that Kopitar didn't give a little, or is too naive to hope that a player that has been inconsistent in his approach to off season preparation and has been able to perform at a high level based on his physical attributes would consider something like that? Anze Kopitar isn't going to be able to rely on being 6-4 and 230 lbs. forever.

No, Kopitar took the money. Now he better damn well get the job done almost all of the time. If you have been paying attention, I haven't zeroed in on Kopitar. His contract is the one that is being extended, so he is being discussed.

If you recall when the Doughty negotiations were ongoing and his agent wanted the $7M AAV, but only wanted to sign for 5 years, I was strongly in favor of making Doughty give up UFA years if he was going to insist on such a high AAV.

You read these posts as gleeful? I write them as fact-based. I show people a long term chart on the value of the Canadian dollar. What do I get in return from a poster like Ron? A chart on Apple, kind of ridiculous.

It's okay, you keep swooning over Kopi. I like him as a player too, just not at an AAV of $10M.

Swooning? Please. Look at my post history. I've been more than critical of Kopitar over the years. Condescending horse**** like that is exactly what exposes your agenda here as an anti-player corporate shill.

I'm not talking about the stagnant cap. I'm talking about a set market on a player of Kopitar's value. You can keep pretending like it doesn't exist, but in a negotiation, it very much does. The cap was smaller when Toews signed his deal. Toews and Kopitar have enjoyed virtually identical career paths. Cap projections are irrelevant in a contract negotiation, because like market projections, they're subject to change on a dime. And the player/agent can always point to three, four years down along the road and (rightfully) say, "we have no idea what the cap will be in the middle of this contract." This is exactly why first wave contracts are market setting in the 1-2 years they're relevant. Dean had absolutely no ground to stand on with, "well, the cap isn't going up."

But honestly, I was going to write a lot more here, and I'm now seeing that's pointless. You constantly pound this dreamland drum of hometown discounts and team-first yah yah stuff, which simply doesn't exist. No one is taking hometown discounts. It's absurd to suggest.

I don't know what tell you if you believe Kopitar has been anything less but an absolutely critical player for this team for eight years now. All the statistics are right there, and have been quoted for you several times now. And you keep turning them away because you thought Kopitar should be a nice guy and leave $20 million on the table. It's ridiculous. The PA is not going to let Kopitar do that. Kopitar's agent is not going let him do that. It's pure fantasy for you to suggest this was ever even on the table; it wasn't.

And if Dean Lombardi believed the team had a chance in hell at contending without Kopitar, he would have been traded already. To suggest otherwise is...it's really not worth getting infracted for, so I'll just say I vehemently disagree with that. Vehemently disagree. There is not a single available and cheaper center in the league who would have filled Kopitar's shoes any time in the next 3-4 years. You know it. I know it. And Dean knows it, too, hence the contract.

This is the last I'll say on the matter, because we're not going to see eye to eye here: Kopitar asking for as much as he could doesn't mean he "****ed" the Kings. It doesn't mean he's greedy, or selfish. It just means he's an employee trying to get paid what his peers are being paid. There's nothing Lombardi could have done here. You really can't reasonably expect Kopitar to shoulder the burden of Lombardi's self-created cap problems--cap problems which would have existed regardless of whether Kopitar signed for 8 million, or 10.