2015-2016 Roster Talk: East Coast Thinks We Suck Edition(MOD WARNING) post# 107

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Swooning? Please. Look at my post history. I've been more than critical of Kopitar over the years. Condescending horse**** like that is exactly what exposes your agenda here as an anti-player corporate shill.

I'm not talking about the stagnant cap. I'm talking about a set market on a player of Kopitar's value. You can keep pretending like it doesn't exist, but in a negotiation, it very much does. The cap was smaller when Toews signed his deal. Toews and Kopitar have enjoyed virtually identical career paths. Cap projections are irrelevant in a contract negotiation, because like market projections, they're subject to change on a dime. And the player/agent can always point to three, four years down along the road and (rightfully) say, "we have no idea what the cap will be in the middle of this contract." This is exactly why first wave contracts are market setting in the 1-2 years they're relevant. Dean had absolutely no ground to stand on with, "well, the cap isn't going up."

But honestly, I was going to write a lot more here, and I'm now seeing that's pointless. You constantly pound this dreamland drum of hometown discounts and team-first yah yah stuff, which simply doesn't exist. No one is taking hometown discounts. It's absurd to suggest.

I don't know what tell you if you believe Kopitar has been anything less but an absolutely critical player for this team for eight years now. All the statistics are right there, and have been quoted for you several times now. And you keep turning them away because you thought Kopitar should be a nice guy and leave $20 million on the table. It's ridiculous. The PA is not going to let Kopitar do that. Kopitar's agent is not going let him do that. It's pure fantasy for you to suggest this was ever even on the table; it wasn't.

And if Dean Lombardi believed the team had a chance in hell at contending without Kopitar, he would have been traded already. To suggest otherwise is...it's really not worth getting infracted for, so I'll just say I vehemently disagree with that. Vehemently disagree. There is not a single available and cheaper center in the league who would have filled Kopitar's shoes any time in the next 3-4 years. You know it. I know it. And Dean knows it, too, hence the contract.

This is the last I'll say on the matter, because we're not going to see eye to eye here: Kopitar asking for as much as he could doesn't mean he "****ed" the Kings. It doesn't mean he's greedy, or selfish. It just means he's an employee trying to get paid what his peers are being paid. There's nothing Lombardi could have done here. You really can't reasonably expect Kopitar to shoulder the burden of Lombardi's self-created cap problems--cap problems which would have existed regardless of whether Kopitar signed for 8 million, or 10.

...and I am saying that the contracts you want to use as comps were done under economic assumptions that were wrong.

We will have to agree to disagree, because Kopitar insisting on a $10M AAV knowing that the cap will be stagnant definitely makes it much harder for Dean to ice a contending team. I don't think Kopitar is stupid, so he knows this to be true. Dean also said in his interviews that he pointed in out to him. Now it's about performance.
 
...and I am saying that the contracts you want to use as comps were done under economic assumptions that were wrong.

We will have to agree to disagree, because Kopitar insisting on a $10M AAV knowing that the cap will be stagnant definitely makes it much harder for Dean to ice a contending team. I don't think Kopitar is stupid, so he knows this to be true. Dean also said in his interviews that he pointed in out to him. Now it's about performance.

I agree.

But again, it's not Kopitar's job to take less money, I wouldn't.

It's Dean Lombardi's job to make it work now, especially since he gave into Kopitar's demands. The only saving Grace is the next CBA will be a war, and max contract length will once again get knocked down.
 
...and I am saying that the contracts you want to use as comps were done under economic assumptions that were wrong.

We will have to agree to disagree, because Kopitar insisting on a $10M AAV knowing that the cap will be stagnant definitely f***s the Kings.

But even adjusting the comps by 15%, which is lower that where we are, would have had him a $9M AAV. That isn't going to sign anyone short of a bottom liner. At 10% which is where we are is $9.5M a year. So that is a whole 500K a year and that isn't even the league min for salary.
 
But even adjusting the comps by 15%, which is lower that where we are, would have had him a $9M AAV. That isn't going to sign anyone short of a bottom liner. At 10% which is where we are is $9.5M a year. So that is a whole 500K a year and that isn't even the league min for salary.

As we have seen before though, every little bit counts, call up's last season didn't happen, a depleted lineup, due to cap dollars.

It made fatigue worse.
 
As we have seen before though, every little bit counts, call up's last season didn't happen, a depleted lineup, due to cap dollars.

It made fatigue worse.

I know but there those out there that think this deal at what is really maybe 500K higher than it should be. And yes around 1M more than where I would like it. Is going to be the reason the Kings can't sign Lucic. And in turn can't sign Toffoli the year after that. All it's doing is maybe preventing a call up in the middle of the year when needed. Which isn't great but also not the end of the world.
 
I know but there those out there that think this deal at what is really maybe 500K higher than it should be. And yes around 1M more than where I would like it. Is going to be the reason the Kings can't sign Lucic. And in turn can't sign Toffoli the year after that. All it's doing is maybe preventing a call up in the middle of the year when needed. Which isn't great but also not the end of the world.

I don't think it effects Lucic( he will be too expensive regardless)

It effects bottom six depth, and being able to keep (Dwight King) type players.

Which you need as well, to Win Cups.
 
I agree.

But again, it's not Kopitar's job to take less money, I wouldn't.

It's Dean Lombardi's job to make it work now, especially since he gave into Kopitar's demands. The only saving Grace is the next CBA will be a war, and max contract length will once again get knocked down.

I never said it was his job. It's also Kopitar's job now to play like a $10M AAV player. You know I agree on the CBA. This deal is not going to run it's full 8 years, at least not on Dean's cap hit tab.

I think Dean made a pretty logical argument to Kopitar, and when push came to shove Kopitar didn't do Dean any favors. He shouldn't expect any from Dean now. No more, "Well I wish Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, etc. would show up to camp in shape and own the leadership roles on the team." F that, he better be a consumate pro from now on, and that means doing more than just what is required contractually, or Dean should flay him in the press. The Kings brass has handled this guy with kid gloves for a long time.
 
I know but there those out there that think this deal at what is really maybe 500K higher than it should be. And yes around 1M more than where I would like it. Is going to be the reason the Kings can't sign Lucic. And in turn can't sign Toffoli the year after that. All it's doing is maybe preventing a call up in the middle of the year when needed. Which isn't great but also not the end of the world.

The only thing that I think effects re-signing Lucic is whether or not Brown is on the roster next season. Dean can't afford both of them.

As damacles said, the Kopitar deal impacts the bottom six, and maybe the 5-6 defensemen.
 
I like Kopi. He's a great guy and a great player. But at $10 million and what impact that is going to have on the team, he is going to shoulder a lot of responsibility to keep performing at a high level for the majority of his contract, with not a significant drop-off at the end. I'm curious about the details of the NTC at the second half of the contract.

The not budging at the $10 million, plus getting the sweeteners puts a big of a sour taste in my mouth, but I'll get over it.
 
I like Kopi. He's a great guy and a great player. But at $10 million and what impact that is going to have on the team, he is going to shoulder a lot of responsibility to keep performing at a high level for the majority of his contract, with not a significant drop-off at the end. I'm curious about the details of the NTC at the second half of the contract.

The not budging at the $10 million, plus getting the sweeteners puts a big of a sour taste in my mouth, but I'll get over it.

Me too, if we win another cup or two. Otherwise, it's a bitter pill.
 
The only thing that I think effects re-signing Lucic is whether or not Brown is on the roster next season. Dean can't afford both of them.

As damacles said, the Kopitar deal impacts the bottom six, and maybe the 5-6 defensemen.

And it's a question of can the team move Brown? From both the potential of finding a trade partner. And then if the team wins the cup do you trade your captain? And not only the captain but the first American born captain at that point to raise the cup 3X.
Where I'm not opposed to it I can see that being a very unpopular thing to do with the casual fans.
 
And it's a question of can the team move Brown? From both the potential of finding a trade partner. And then if the team wins the cup do you trade your captain? And not only the captain but the first American born captain at that point to raise the cup 3X.
Where I'm not opposed to it I can see that being a very unpopular thing to do with the casual fans.

I would hope Dean has learned his lesson after the Richards debacle.
 
And it's a question of can the team move Brown? From both the potential of finding a trade partner. And then if the team wins the cup do you trade your captain? And not only the captain but the first American born captain at that point to raise the cup 3X.
Where I'm not opposed to it I can see that being a very unpopular thing to do with the casual fans.

Only if you sweeten the deal with a player like TT or Pearson.
 
As for Carter, you brought him up. Don't say what Carter brings, then when Kopitar's superior contributions are brought up, just shrug it off with "Is Carter paid more? Salaries are relative." Keep in mind he signed a longer contract at the age of what, 27? When the cap was lower.

Muzzin is grossly underpaid. He should probably be making $6 million right now.

We get it. You don't think Kopitar deserves the money. But your only defense for Kopitar hasn't carried the burden is "I only remember ...."which really says you aren't interested in having a discussion about a player's contributions. Which is fine, use the discussion board as you want within the rules. Just don't expect people to enjoy having discussions with you when you continue to pass off opinion as fact and dismissing valid counterarguments ("Kopitar needs to shoulder more responsibility, because I remember only two playoff series he stood out"), as well as passing off temporary situations as permanent ones ("The Canadian dollar is dropping").

They are valid concerns, but your inflexible tone and rhetoric doesn't excite me to come back and discuss further with you.
Thank you.

Do you, King'sPawn, expect Kempe to get a taste of the NHL this year? I think it could happen.
 
He has more value than that but like at 33-50% retained.
He's not useless.

With the Cap the way it's stagnant, and Brown needed to be paid around 10 million in real dollars over the next two years(if half is retained).

I would be asking for Pearson in the Deal, at the very least A top Kings prospect.
 
Well, 33%-50% retained doesn't clear up enough cap space imo. I say bite the bullet, and trade away one of our young guns, preferably, Pearson.

That one I don't have as much problem with but you'd said Toffoli. You don't trade the 30-40 goal scorer and the only one on the team that has a chance at 40+.

And I think that is a move that might have to be made anyway. Having both of them up in the same year is rough.
 
I never said it was his job. It's also Kopitar's job now to play like a $10M AAV player. You know I agree on the CBA. This deal is not going to run it's full 8 years, at least not on Dean's cap hit tab.

I think Dean made a pretty logical argument to Kopitar, and when push came to shove Kopitar didn't do Dean any favors. He shouldn't expect any from Dean now. No more, "Well I wish Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, etc. would show up to camp in shape and own the leadership roles on the team." F that, he better be a consumate pro from now on, and that means doing more than just what is required contractually, or Dean should flay him in the press. The Kings brass has handled this guy with kid gloves for a long time.
Again with that training camp shape ****?
Kopitar has some of the toughest TOI-SHTOI and for the past 8 years no other Kings player outscored him. His Pts/G is simmilar to Toews who was never the top scorer of the Blackhawks in the playoffs.
I have never read by any player, tv analyst or GM call Kopitar anything other then a consumate pro.
Maybe it's time for you to clean your fantasy issues you have with said player.
I wonder if the Ducks/Hawks have posters with your kind of issues towards Getzlaf/Toews...
 
The alternative is the one that Dean offered Kopitar, but Anze had to have as much money as he could get and still stay in LA. That's his prerogative. It's my prerogative not to like it very much, because I think his agent and Kopitar used false comps that are not realistic in today's cap environment.

They knew that they had Dean over a barrel and they took FULL advantage.

That's not really an alternative. Lombardi says no to Kopitar's/his agent's demand. Now what? What's the alternative to Kopitar that keeps the Kings a contender for however long you think they should be one?
 
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