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Mo Seider Less Problems
- Jul 27, 2010
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2015/16 Wishlist
- Thread starter The Zermanator
- Start date
ShelbyZ
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- Apr 8, 2015
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To be honest, I hope Holland just completely ignores the UFA market.
All the Dmen available on July 1st that all of the Red Wings fan seem to be fawning over are going to be WAY overpaid. Someone is going to pay Green like a #1 Dman, when he is barely a #4, and Petry won't be far behind.
Instead, Holland should tear a page out of Garth Snow's offseason playbook from last summer/fall.
By that, I mean Holland should save his cap space and poach from teams that will be trying to get under the salary cap to start the season. Snow did it and scored two huge upgrades to his blueline for rather reasonable prices. Boston and Chicago will be in a similar situation this summer, and the Blues, Rangers, Penguins and Flyers may also be looking to unload.
To put it in perspective, the price Snow paid for Leddy was a decent 20YO Dman entering the first year of his ELC, an AHL depth dman and the rights to an older prospect that decided to go back to Europe. The equivalent from the Red Wings at that time, would've been like sending Lashoff, Backman and the rights to Adam Almquist. That would be an easy deal to swallow for a Top-4 dman IMO.
All the Dmen available on July 1st that all of the Red Wings fan seem to be fawning over are going to be WAY overpaid. Someone is going to pay Green like a #1 Dman, when he is barely a #4, and Petry won't be far behind.
Instead, Holland should tear a page out of Garth Snow's offseason playbook from last summer/fall.
By that, I mean Holland should save his cap space and poach from teams that will be trying to get under the salary cap to start the season. Snow did it and scored two huge upgrades to his blueline for rather reasonable prices. Boston and Chicago will be in a similar situation this summer, and the Blues, Rangers, Penguins and Flyers may also be looking to unload.
To put it in perspective, the price Snow paid for Leddy was a decent 20YO Dman entering the first year of his ELC, an AHL depth dman and the rights to an older prospect that decided to go back to Europe. The equivalent from the Red Wings at that time, would've been like sending Lashoff, Backman and the rights to Adam Almquist. That would be an easy deal to swallow for a Top-4 dman IMO.
I've been in favor of that approach for some time, but have learned that Holland is either absolutely incapable or completely uninterested of identifying such opportunities around the league. Assuming the Ducks re-up with Beauchemin, Wisniewsky is a guy who will be expendable for them and fits what the Wings have needed since ohhhh when Rafalski retired. If Holland felt Quincey was worth a 1st rounder way back when, then Wisniewsky be a relative steal for our 2016 1st
aar000n
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Agree also I am not a fan of getting Phaneuf. As we would give up a lot for him. And have to face what we give up for him in league play and in the playoffs,
ShelbyZ
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Same goes for the Rangers, as they have to make adjustments with Hagelin, Fast, Miller, Stepan, Kreider, Hayes, Yandle and possibly St. Louis and Boyle needing new deals over the next couple seasons.
The Blues might need to send some guys out too, depending on what kind of raises Allen and Tarasenko get for next season.
I feel like over the next few years, the emphasis on the UFA period is going to fade, while teams will focus more on re-signing most of their guys just so they can flip medium sized assets for picks and cheaper young players.
I think Phaneuf would be a solid pick up if he isnt on the 1st D pairing against elite competition. I dont watch Leafs games but friends from work tell me Phaneuf is decent-(most of his hate comes from his play relative for his contract) and he'd be a good 2nd-3rd pairing.
ShelbyZ
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I believe Holland tried that payment and Toronto said no.
I think the biggest problem for Toronto is that the Wings want them to take Weiss AND retain $2M of Phaneufs cap hit. For Toronto, that doesn't really help them at all. Getting Weiss and keeping $2M of Phaneuf means they get $100k of cap relief. With Smith they get a "project" dman who is one year away from UFA eligibility, and they'd likely have to overpay him to stick around past that.
Vladdy84
L-O-Y-A-L-T-Y
"While [Phaneuf] is fairly reliable defensively, he's been known to get caught out of position going for the big hit."
No Gave, he is not reliable defensively. He has been the centerpiece of what's been consistently one of the league's worst defenses during his tenure in Toronto. It's not just when he goes 'for the big hit' that he's caught out of position, he's often caught standing around as if completely immobile. Add in some of his excruciatingly bad giveaways and stupid penalties, all locked in with that awful contract Toronto gave him, and it's no wonder that the Wings (Holland) were the only serious contenders for his services.
No Gave, he is not reliable defensively. He has been the centerpiece of what's been consistently one of the league's worst defenses during his tenure in Toronto. It's not just when he goes 'for the big hit' that he's caught out of position, he's often caught standing around as if completely immobile. Add in some of his excruciatingly bad giveaways and stupid penalties, all locked in with that awful contract Toronto gave him, and it's no wonder that the Wings (Holland) were the only serious contenders for his services.
ShelbyZ
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I just think Holland should leave on a plane to go on an "off-the-grid" vacation for a few weeks, the very next day after the draft.
That will eliminate any temptation to make any more bad UFA signings like the ones he's made the past few years.
Keep his cap space open and make regular calls to GM's in cap binds. Eventually, one of them will get desperate and be willing to deal a good player with a medium sized contract for cap relief and some younger and cheaper players to fill their roster. In reality, guys like Andersson, Ferraro, Callahan, Lashoff and maybe even Kindl would have value to those teams as they give them cheap NHL capable options to fill holes in their line-up that they have little cap space for.
If none of those deals can be made, go into camp and let young guys and maybe even some camp invites ACTUALLY COMPETE for spots in the line-up. Hang onto that cap space to scavenge off of teams looking for a shake up after a slow start, and/or the trade deadline.
NONE of the UFA's on this summers market with be worth the likely overpayment Holland will have to shell out.
That will eliminate any temptation to make any more bad UFA signings like the ones he's made the past few years.
Keep his cap space open and make regular calls to GM's in cap binds. Eventually, one of them will get desperate and be willing to deal a good player with a medium sized contract for cap relief and some younger and cheaper players to fill their roster. In reality, guys like Andersson, Ferraro, Callahan, Lashoff and maybe even Kindl would have value to those teams as they give them cheap NHL capable options to fill holes in their line-up that they have little cap space for.
If none of those deals can be made, go into camp and let young guys and maybe even some camp invites ACTUALLY COMPETE for spots in the line-up. Hang onto that cap space to scavenge off of teams looking for a shake up after a slow start, and/or the trade deadline.
NONE of the UFA's on this summers market with be worth the likely overpayment Holland will have to shell out.
Michael Brand Eggs
Knee Guard
I don't believe it. It's just Gave again. If you look, Gave is also convinced the Wings won't even try to sign a free agent defenseman. http://www.foxsports.com/detroit/st...et-again-this-summer-but-will-they-buy-050715
I truly believe these are just opinions rattled off by a very irate and out-of-sorts Devellano, and Gave wrote them down and is turning them into individual stories. He's done stories quoting Jimmy D like 4 days in a row now.
ShelbyZ
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Another wish is for some SIZE. And no, I don't mean just getting bigger players. I mean getting some of their players to up their protein intake and practically live in the gym from now until training camp.
With Cleary, Cole and possibly Franzen not being back for next season, they're losing 3 of only 5 forwards they had this past season that weigh over 200lbs.
Ferraro, Miller, Jurco, DeKeyser, Ouellet and Mantha could all probably benefit from adding 20 or more. Nyquist, Tatar, Smith and Callahan could all use about 10-15.
Isn't Aaron Downey still a strength and conditioning coach with the Griffins? I remember seeing a video from an episode of a Dallas Stars pre-game show when he was with them. It highlighted his training regimen, and showed him running up and down hills on his families farm, while holding a giant log up on his shoulders, among other activites. All of the players I mentioned should be sent there for a month this summer, along with a months supply of steaks and Muscle Milk.
With Cleary, Cole and possibly Franzen not being back for next season, they're losing 3 of only 5 forwards they had this past season that weigh over 200lbs.
Ferraro, Miller, Jurco, DeKeyser, Ouellet and Mantha could all probably benefit from adding 20 or more. Nyquist, Tatar, Smith and Callahan could all use about 10-15.
Isn't Aaron Downey still a strength and conditioning coach with the Griffins? I remember seeing a video from an episode of a Dallas Stars pre-game show when he was with them. It highlighted his training regimen, and showed him running up and down hills on his families farm, while holding a giant log up on his shoulders, among other activites. All of the players I mentioned should be sent there for a month this summer, along with a months supply of steaks and Muscle Milk.
Have you watched any caps games in the playoffs? Green has been fantastic and outproduced our #1 defenseman in the regular season despite playing behind niskanen and carlson
On a general level I dont understand some of you. You want the team to get better but shoot down every possible trade/free agent that gets brought up and somehow people actually want Phaneuf lol. Not to mention there is no guarentee defenseman of boychuk ot leddy's caliber will be available for trade closer to the regular season but hey lets go into training camp with a team that people unanimously agree isnt good enough. Yup. Good call.
Although if Chicago cannot find a way to make Seabrook fit under the cap we NEED to land him.
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ShelbyZ
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I appreciate the debate.
Your focus on "production" is my first issue with Green. Yea, he can stack up points, but he won't help the Red Wings get any better in their own zone. He's been better under Trotz, because he's had his minutes cut down and sheltered.
Secondly, the Wings are constantly hampered by injuries and Green has consistently missed ten or more games the past 5 seasons. He's been a bit more durable the past two, but with the Red Wings luck signing oft-injured players, I don't feel confident.
Thirdly, he's going to be the best dman available in a very thin UFA class. He's going to make Andrew McDonalds deal look like a bargain. I really don't want to see Holland have to give him a long term deal with a $6M+ cap hit, nor do I think Holland is going to give it to him.
I'm not particularly excited about Phaneuf either.
If we're sticking to Hollands "build from within" sales ploy, might as well let Zidlicky walk and let Ouellet or Marchenko battle to push someone out of a regular spot.
I agree on Seabrook, but the Hawks cap relief will probably come from shedding Sharp and Bickell.
Depending on how they recover from their cap crunch induced shake-up (which Stan Bowman has a very good record of recovery), Seabrook will likely re-sign to a cap friendly hometown discount.
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Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
- Jul 27, 2010
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Why do people repeatedly use where someone is slotted on a far superior defense, as a rebuttal to bringing them here?
That's about as silly as saying Dekeyser sucks because he'd be just a #4 or #5 defenseman on Nashville/NYR, when clearly he doesn't.
Green would play a much bigger role here, and he'd do it better than the guys currently slotted there.
That's about as silly as saying Dekeyser sucks because he'd be just a #4 or #5 defenseman on Nashville/NYR, when clearly he doesn't.
Green would play a much bigger role here, and he'd do it better than the guys currently slotted there.
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For sure, it's not like its anything personal I am just a huge advocate for chasing green.
Firstly, his production under trotz has been exceptional considering the fact that his minutes were cut down and sheltered. For comparison we have people like Kindl and smith getting sheltered minutes. I am pretty sure we could agree that if Green were put into the same role with the wings he is an instant upgrade over our 3rd pairing, at least. More importantly I disagree with your claim that he wouldn't help out in our own zone, for the most part Green makes a fantastic outlet pass which is one of the areas we struggled most. Not only that he is much more mobile than most of our current defenseman which helps him escape sticky situations. Now sure he will have his defensive lapses but by that same token who on our team doesn't make costly defensive mistakes? Not only that Green will immensely imprpve our 5 on 5 play which is an area we struggled this season. Another posted illustrated his positive possession numbers and whatnot, but I am currently on a mobile device so I cannot link you to them.
Green's imjury troubles are worrisome, but the most recent signing in Weiss shows a key difference--- Weiss was injured in the season prior to his contract. Green has been better for the past two seasons, this either indicstes that another injury is overdue, or he has started to "get over" his injury troubles. Only time will tell, but given a look at his more recent performance it shouldn't be a huge deterrent.
Thirdly, Kyle Quincey and Erricsom are $4 million dollar defenseman. Inflation is a real thing and "expensive" deals four or five years ago are looking better and better as the cap continues to rise. Green is $2 million better than E and Quincey. Term is the sticking point. Signing him to a 7 year deal is certainly accompanied with some risk, and I domt necessarily advocate for that long of a term At the same time I would be willing to pay him more to accept a 5 year deal.
Lastly, Im glad because I do not like Phaneuf one bit. Unfortunately given Hollands track record I expect him to resign Zidlicky lol, but I do agree Puellete and marchenko deserve a fair shot, but they are not on Green's level and they should be replacing a combimation of Kindl, Zidlicky, and Smith.
Sidebar: Like I said im on my phone, I trust you can figure out any obvious typing errors.
ShelbyZ
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Rather than get all excited about his RH shot and impressive (if not inconsistent) stat sheet, I've looked into assessments from Caps fans. Lots of them think that fans of whatever team that signs Green for top pair money will be disappointed. The Caps defense was not exactly great before they brought in Niskanen, Orpik and Trotz. A lot of their success this season has come from finally having dmen that can take on big assignments in their own zone, and Trotz moving Green to the 3rd pair and giving him mostly offensive starts and PP time.
To me he will be a much younger, bigger and much more expensive version of Zidlicky. I'd be all for it if the Red Wings had 5 other dmen that can be used in most all situations, but they don't. They'd be adding Green to defense full of other sheltered and/or mistake-prone dmen. Holland can't seem to find a way to get rid of Kindl, and if he unloads his cap space for Green, then he obviously won't be trading Smith for Phaneuf.
In my eyes Green is better as an offensive complimentary piece to an ALREADY GOOD defense. I'd rather split the giant cap hit that Green will get and bring in a couple of cheaper Dmen that are capable of playing in their own zone. However, I know Holland won't do that either.
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Although I agree the Niskanen Orpik and Trotz have made an obvious impact on Washington's D, I'd argue Trotz has made the largest impact on that team. He is known for being a fantasticndefensice oriented coach and he has made that team solid defensively without cutting off offensive players production--- he is using people in roles they fit best. We could argue all day about whether or not Babcock would be utilized properly here, but he makes our defense better, period. He will be better on a team with a bunch of other solid defenseman he win't be forced into situations where he isn't as adept as others. Sounds like solid coaching to me.
Now Im not trying to compare Detroits D to washingtons because Washingtons D is better than ours, but Green usually plays with Alzner in washington. I feel Dekeyser may not be as good but is at least comparable to Alzner, and that line may not get E off of the top line but if it goes down like that Green avoids top line opposition and provides a much needed offensive punch. Again. We were terrivle 5 on 5. Green helps the outlet pass (which none of our defenseman seem capable of making) and can provide lateral mobility and offensive instincts on our backend.
I also disagree that a couple cheaper defenseman that can play in their own end is a solution. Those sound like the kind of moves that have prevented our young players from having a fair shake at competing for a spot. Regardless of what people believe I think that our team is decent in our own end, due to coaching, our problems arise from our inability to break out after we have gained control and maintain pressure once we have it. Two arras Green obviously helps with.
Run the Jewels
Make Detroit Great Again
Holland says all the right things but he's far too passive to make that type of commitment. We all talked about trying to get Boychuk from Boston and some didn't think he was an offfensive d-men - like we're overflowing with them - but there was no talk to suggest Detroit inquired. People also like to make excuses like "BUT WE'RE DIVISION FOES!!!" but if Boston needs to get below the cap and we give them the best offer it's probably tough to turn that down.
My guess is Holland will try to sign Zidlicky and Cole to new deals and that's about all that will happen.
ShelbyZ
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On the flipside of that coin, having a vastly overpaid Mike Green will become a hindrance to KEEPING young players that develop into solid contributors long term.
I just don't see Holland outbidding the other teams that will be happy to overpay for Green. Especially after the Weiss disaster. If he doesn't want Phaneuf coming over with his full $7M cap hit, I doubt he's willing to shell out $6M+ long term for Green.
For some reason, I see the Sharks, Preds, Devils or even Flames or Oilers opening the bank for him.
SoupNazi
Gee Wally/SoupNazi 2024
- Feb 6, 2010
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