Prospect Info: 2014-15 (pt. 2): Phantoms (AHL), Reading Royals (ECHL), NCAA, Juniors, Int'l, etc.

[Random Forest]

And the current recipe is working so much better?

You guys seriously need to stop putting words in my mouth. Holy ****, just read what I'm saying explicitly and stop inferring any more than that. I've made my point as clearly as possible.

 

[Striiker]

The problem is, how do you decide when a player is "ready" for the NHL? Because that is going to be different for each player. Is Laughton ready for the NHL? You could certainly argue that he is good enough to play in the NHL right now, he's better than Rinaldo and probably a few other forwards on the team as well. But given the expectations (or hopes) the organization has for him, he will get better experience playing a bigger role on the Phantoms than a smaller role on the Flyers. And that's true for every one of the other prospects as well.

The purpose of having a developmental system is to develop the players, not throw them in the ocean as soon as they look like they can swim.

Well that's the point of having coaches, scouts, and the GM watching these players, they try to determine when the player is ready to play in the NHL. That doesn't mean as soon as they can play there and not be a wreck, it means when they can actively contribute to helping the team win games and won't be overwhelmed or hurt by it.

Look at Giroux, he didn't come in as a top line player, he came in as a player who could help the team win and continue to grow and learn at the same time. Staying in the AHL wasn't necessary for him so they brought him up and he continued to get better and better until he became what he is now. It's not like leaving in him the AHL longer would have made him a better player today.

If Morin can play at the NHL level, help the team win, and learn/develop at the same time then maybe he doesn't need to play in the AHL for long, or at all. That's what they need to determine and that will be done by watching him at camp. If he looks like he isn't ready then he'll go down, but sometimes players just play too well to get sent down.

Luckily, it's not my job to worry about this stuff so I can just sit here and wait and focus my energy on hating Berube and everything else that sucks this season.

 

[FLYguy3911]

This is the problem, and exactly my point.

There isn't some simple "ready" or "not ready" threshold. Young players need to be guided along as they enter the NHL. They need easy minutes. They need to be spoon fed their roles.

That's why it's a potential issue. If they all force their way at once, you don't have the ice time necessary to guide them along. Then you end up wondering "Well, what if Hagg got a chance on the PK? Maybe he could have carved out a role?" or "Is Ghost really a liability or is he getting tougher minutes because the easy ones are going to Hagg and Sanheim?" or "Could Morin be more if he ever got a chance on the PP?"

I don't want to be faced with trading a player because we didn't give him the opportunity he needed to prove he could cut it. I want all our guys to be given a fair shot. I'm not saying there won't be busts (there will be)-- I'm saying we need to be smart about how the transition happens so we don't see a bust when there may be an NHL player there.

Very soon, our entire D corps will be different AND very young. That simply doesn't happen all at once. Even if all of them are "ready", it's still a recipe for disaster.

I get all that. In a perfect world that's how things would shake out, but this isn't a perfect world and the Flyer's don't have the luxury of having a stable NHL roster (especially on the backend) with guys that will be able to ease these kids in. There's a good chance some of these kids are going to get a baptism by fire. You can't hide defensemen like you can forwards. Sure you can line match and try to shelter them, but at some point Morin, Gostisbehere, and Sanheim are going to get matched up against the big boys. Every defensemen goes through it.

Look at Buffalo. Ristolainen and Zadorov are playing a pretty big role as 19/20 year olds on a crap team. Buffalo has a pretty big piece of their future tied up into those kids. Are these kids going to falter because they are playing a tough role at a young age?

Like another poster said, I just think you are getting way ahead of yourself here. There are a lot of variables at play here. Too many for me to worry about. I'm just going to enjoy watching the development of these kids hopefully becoming part of the backend we have longed for.

Then why didn't he say the same thing about Straka who has played under Murray just as long as Alt has and has the same draft pedigree?

I don't know man. I wasn't interviewing him. I don't know how the question was laid out to him. Why didn't he say anything about Hagg being on track to be an NHL player?
And technically Straka is an NHLer.

I know you don't watch these kids play and hang on stats and every article you read to form an opinion on these kids. If you don't agree with me that's fine. I didn't know Alt was such a soft spot.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Eh I know we disagree on this... I think we did even last year. I was able to watch 60 games last year on the Phantoms and saw his progression. He was eating a ton of minutes and played all situations.

Obviously management disagrees with me (as do you) but I think he is NHL ready. He doesnt play the most "wow" game which doesnt get noticed like the big 4 guys (even Hagg).

My personal beleif? I think he gets traded to another team this trade deadline or next and goes on to be a solid 5/6 defender.

He had to. He was the tallest midget in the circus.

It was good that he got the opportunity to play in all situations (something he couldn't even do at Minnesota). He did a decent job, but at the end of the day like a lot of fringe NHL players he doesn't have a standout skill really, so he's going to have to be just more than "solid" at the AHL level. Even just going off what Murray said in that little quote, nothing about his puck skills, shot, shutdown ability, etc. Just more about his character which is great, but that can only take you so far.

As far as him being NHL ready? I have flashbacks of that game against the Rangers, when suddenly he didn't seem like such a good skater as guys were blowing by him. The Flyers have a logjam as it is on the backend. I can't see him getting a chance unless injuries become overwhelming again or he has to pass through waivers.

 

[Jack Straw]

Well that's the point of having coaches, scouts, and the GM watching these players, they try to determine when the player is ready to play in the NHL. That doesn't mean as soon as they can play there and not be a wreck, it means when they can actively contribute to helping the team win games and won't be overwhelmed or hurt by it.

Look at Giroux, he didn't come in as a top line player, he came in as a player who could help the team win and continue to grow and learn at the same time. Staying in the AHL wasn't necessary for him so they brought him up and he continued to get better and better until he became what he is now. It's not like leaving in him the AHL longer would have made him a better player today.

If Morin can play at the NHL level, help the team win, and learn/develop at the same time then maybe he doesn't need to play in the AHL for long, or at all. That's what they need to determine and that will be done by watching him at camp. If he looks like he isn't ready then he'll go down, but sometimes players just play too well to get sent down.

Luckily, it's not my job to worry about this stuff so I can just sit here and wait and focus my energy on hating Berube and everything else that sucks this season.

I think it means a little more than that. I think (hope) that it means doing what is best for the player's future, rather than what is best for the Flyers' present. I think Laughton met the criteria you listed, I don't think keeping him up would have hurt him per se, but there's a good chance it would have Pejorative Slured his development. And like you say, that's what the coaches scouts and the GM are there for. To make those judgement calls.

 

[Tripod]

With Murray's comments, Hextall's comments, and how Ghost was used when called up, I see him in the AHL next year for at least half a season.

Reality is Hextall could do little at the deadline and then re-sign MDZ.

That would leave only the #7 spot open for a non kid.

Then run:

Morin Ghost
Hagg Alt
Manning

in the AHL.

We all have no clue what Hextall will do, but he has said repeatedly that they won't rush guys.

 

[Random Forest]

I get all that. In a perfect world that's how things would shake out, but this isn't a perfect world and the Flyer's don't have the luxury of having a stable NHL roster (especially on the backend) with guys that will be able to ease these kids in. There's a good chance some of these kids are going to get a baptism by fire. You can't hide defensemen like you can forwards. Sure you can line match and try to shelter them, but at some point Morin, Gostisbehere, and Sanheim are going to get matched up against the big boys. Every defensemen goes through it.

You don't understand. You don't let rookies get top level competition. No team does that. If you just wait for them all to break in at once, that's the situation you're staring at.

Look at Buffalo. Ristolainen and Zadorov are playing a pretty big role as 19/20 year olds on a crap team. Buffalo has a pretty big piece of their future tied up into those kids. Are these kids going to falter because they are playing a tough role at a young age?

Yeah, and Buffalo has been absolute dog ****. Is your plan to be ******* for the next couple years?

And further, you're misunderstanding my argument. I'm not saying it will ruin these players. I'm saying it may not allow for all of them to get properly evaluated in roles they are best suited for, and we end up misreading a player's ability at the NHL level because of it.

And neither Ristolainen nor Zadorov immediately began against top competition, for the record.

Like another poster said, I just think you are getting way ahead of yourself here. There are a lot of variables at play here. Too many for me to worry about. I'm just going to enjoy watching the development of these kids hopefully becoming part of the backend we have longed for.

I'm not ahead of anything. I'm making a very obvious point that you can't have three or four young players debuting around the same time. Players need to gradually develop roles. That doesn't happen when you whole-sale turnover the D all at one time.

 

[Striiker]

I think it means a little more than that. I think (hope) that it means doing what is best for the player's future, rather than what is best for the Flyers' present. I think Laughton met the criteria you listed, I don't think keeping him up would have hurt him per se, but there's a good chance it would have Pejorative Slured his development. And like you say, that's what the coaches scouts and the GM are there for. To make those judgement calls.

Well that's what I meant by "hurt", if it slows down or stops their development. If playing in the NHL doesn't do anything at all to stop them from becoming the best player they can possibly be then there's no reason for them to be in the AHL. If being in the AHL is the best way for them to develop them I would consider being in the NHL as hurting them.

 

[Jack Straw]

Well that's what I meant by "hurt", if it slows down or stops their development. If playing in the NHL doesn't do anything at all to stop them from become the best player they can possibly be then there's no reason for them to be in the AHL. If being in the AHL is the best way for them to develop them I would consider being in the NHL as hurting them.

Ok, gotit.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

With Murray's comments, Hextall's comments, and how Ghost was used when called up, I see him in the AHL next year for at least half a season.

Reality is Hextall could do little at the deadline and then re-sign MDZ.

That would leave only the #7 spot open for a non kid.

Then run:

Morin Ghost
Hagg Alt
Manning

in the AHL.

We all have no clue what Hextall will do, but he has said repeatedly that they won't rush guys.

You have to remember Gostisbehere's an older prospect (he'll be 22 this spring), guys of his ilk haven't spent a whole lot of time in the AHL. He may not make the team out of camp but I wouldn't cap him that far out.

The Phantoms have 26 regular season games left as of now. So there's still time left for him to get in a fair amount of games heading into camp this summer.

 

[Striiker]

You have to remember Gostisbehere's an older prospect (he'll be 22 this spring), guys of his ilk haven't spent a whole lot of time in the AHL. He may not make the team out of camp but I wouldn't cap him that far out.

I think he'll start in the AHL but I wouldn't be surprised if the first possible chance for him to come up will be the end of his AHL career.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I think he'll start in the AHL but I wouldn't be surprised if the first possible chance for him to come up will be the end of his AHL career.

I would agree there. I think his injury might have delayed his ETA but I don't think it will that long.

He's close to returning & the Phantoms still have a quarter of the season left not counting the playoffs so he'll get his games in making this year not a complete write off.

 

[Tripod]

You have to remember Gostisbehere's an older prospect (he'll be 22 this spring), guys of his ilk haven't spent a whole lot of time in the AHL. He may not make the team out of camp but I wouldn't cap him that far out.

The Phantoms have 26 regular season games left as of now. So there's still time left for him to get in a fair amount of games heading into camp this summer.

I agree..but again...Murray just said he is not ready defensively for the NHL and that he also needs to gain more strength.

I think we could make the team out of camp next year, but who knows. I am ok signing a 1 year deal to another Schultz/MDZ and then when they are 109% sure! we have an extra asset to trade to make room for Ghost.

Time will tell.

 

[FLYguy3911]

You don't understand. You don't let rookies get top level competition. No team does that. If you just wait for them all to break in at once, that's the situation you're staring at.

I never said you let them get top level competition by choice. I'm saying it happens. You play on the road, you don't always get to pick the matchups. They are going to go against the best at some point, planned or not. They have to be ready for that. You can't shelter defensemen like you can forwards no matter how hard you try.

Yeah, and Buffalo has been absolute dog ****. Is your plan to be ******* for the next couple years?

This team is not going to be a contender the next few years barring winning the McDavid lottery. I know you've compared our situation to Chicago in the past so you obviously think otherwise.

Who cares if they are ******* now. I thought you might like the Buffalo example as they are kind of doing what you hope the Flyers do. Breaking two kids in now and have a few more on the way, but you'll argue a point just to argue.

And further, you're misunderstanding my argument. I'm not saying it will ruin these players. I'm saying it may not allow for all of them to get properly evaluated in roles they are best suited for, and we end up misreading a player's ability at the NHL level because of it.

That's what juniors and the minors are for. You have to have an idea of what kinds of players these kids are before they are in the bigs. That's a big reason why I don't think Hagg should be in the NHL before 2016. He doesn't have a role at this point in his career. He needs to find it. The only guy locked up long term is MacDonald. I say that's a pretty ideal situation for the young guys to showcase their worth. You still have Schenn, Grossmann, Coburn, Streit signed for next year if you need guys to eat the "tough" minutes and MDZ is going to be under team control if they want. I don't know how much better it could be than that.

And neither Ristolainen nor Zadorov immediately began against top competition, for the record.

They've played 2nd pair minutes together for most of the year, for the record.

I'm not ahead of anything. I'm making a very obvious point that you can't have three or four young players debuting around the same time. Players need to gradually develop roles. That doesn't happen when you whole-sale turnover the D all at one time.

If we get to the point where we have 3 or 4 NHL-ready prospects all knocking on the door, you are absolutely right, but until we get to that point then yes you are getting ahead of yourself.

Nothing Hextall has done, suggests to me he's handling these kids wrong or that he's going to handle these kids wrong. I really don't know what the big deal is. There's no one knocking on the door right now even if they weren't chasing a playoff spot. Morin hopefully still has plenty of hockey left in the season to get a better feel on how close he is. Same with Gostisbehere. Sanheim is probably a year behind those guys. After that, everyone else is a wild card to me. You have another year at least to make a decision on Alt. Hagg is going to be on an ELC for the next 3 seasons. Friedman still has 3 more years of college eligibility. Vasiliev is a hope and a dream at this point and they hold his rights for the foreseeable future. Willcox still has another year of eligibility plus his ELC. Pettersson's fate was pretty much summed up by Murray. They might even package one or two for an established piece. It's all going to sort itself out. I promise.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I agree..but again...Murray just said he is not ready defensively for the NHL and that he also needs to gain more strength.

I think we could make the team out of camp next year, but who knows. I am ok signing a 1 year deal to another Schultz/MDZ and then when they are 109% sure! we have an extra asset to trade to make room for Ghost.

Time will tell.

Ultimately this, we'll get a little of an idea where Hextall is going with the blueline at the deadline then the picture should be clear in the offseason.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I agree..but again...Murray just said he is not ready defensively for the NHL and that he also needs to gain more strength.

I think we could make the team out of camp next year, but who knows. I am ok signing a 1 year deal to another Schultz/MDZ and then when they are 109% sure! we have an extra asset to trade to make room for Ghost.

Time will tell.

I think Murray must have some pretty high expectations for Gostisbehere's defensive game. He's coached him for 7 games. I've watched every one of those games and I've never been alarmed by his actual defensive play. He always seems to be in the right spot, he has an active stick, he uses his speed to close on gaps, smooth hips when he pivots to change direction. I agree he needs to get stronger, but like Holmgren said you have to be careful not to overload him, and even so he's always going to be undersized. He's never going to move guys. This will most likely always be a detriment of his game. He's a very aggressive player. He takes a lot of gambles. Most of the time it pays off, but sometimes it looks bad when he misses on an opportunity (Detroit game). This is the only thing in his game that I think he needs work and that will come (hopefully) as he plays more.

I got bored the other day and watched the game before he blew out his knee and he was unbelievable at both ends of the rink. Creating chances every time he was on the ice. One man breakouts evading 3 forecheckers. He never seemed to be playing defense because every time he was out on the ice they were on the attack. I think that is his best asset. Its cliche but the best defense is a good offense. Hopefully this injury doesn't have a long term impact as he was truly a special skater.

 

[SchennSational1022*]

Alt will be lucky to ever be an NHL regular, he just isn't that good.

 

[BackWithaVengeance]

Whatever it is what it takes to get our d-propects the best possible first steps into to NHL squad I am very optimistic Hextall, Murray and our new Head Coach will make the right decisions.

This is a situation where Hextall can use all of his experience from his his tenure at the Kings. He has seen first hand, how you can build a contending, playoff caliber Defense.

Of course finding another "Doughty" would make it A LOT easier.

 

[BackWithaVengeance]

Ultimately this, we'll get a little of an idea where Hextall is going with the blueline at the deadline then the picture should be clear in the offseason.

I believe the draft day will be a better indication. With the recent push the Flyers make room for Timonen and call it a day of necessity.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I believe the draft day will be a better indication. With the recent push the Flyers make room for Timonen and call it a day of necessity.

Well yeah but someone's going during the deadline with likely Coburn, Schultz, & Del Zotto the prime candidates (if I was a betting man I would say one of the last two) so we'll know more than we know now.

 

[pacehimself]

Reading these arguments I am extremely happy that we finally have a crop of young defenseman to argue over ....we have tea lent coming up and I have all the faith in the world Hextal will do what is best for there development

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I understand the idea of spoon feeding players. At the same time, if you've got the horses, you have to let them run. If a team is worried about the young guys making mistakes, then the team's already failed them. The only way they're going to get on par is by making mistakes and learning from them. Spoon feeding them shields them from that and might end up causing more damage in the long run. Short term, yeah, you definitely want to limit their exposure, but at some time, you've got to let them get their feet wet to see if they're capable of performing or not.

 

[bb12]

I am a huge fan of how hextall is running this team especially with prospects and picks vs what we are use to. However i am not a fan of making a decision for next season. Obviously if we cant fit them (due to our crowded d) then we let them season in the AHL, but if there is space they should have every right to have a chance at an NHL job.

No one can perdict how Ghost, Morin, Hagg and even Sanheim are going to progress from now till camp. We can assume he wont but what if Sanheim comes to camp 20 lbs heavier and outplays all our D. Does he deserve a spot, absolutely.

Hextall shouldnt put a tag on where these guys will be next year untill he sees how they turn out, summer is huge for these guys. Dont get me wrong, I like that he isnt afraid to be patient and send they back to juniors or to the AHL

 

[FLYguy3911]

https://vine.co/v/Oxb6LuTnD7J

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

Oh good god...