Prospect Info: 2014-15 (pt. 2): Phantoms (AHL), Reading Royals (ECHL), NCAA, Juniors, Int'l, etc.

[BackWithaVengeance]

Terry Murray talks about nine different prospects. I just picked a couple.

http://www.nj.com/flyers/index.ssf/2015/02/phantoms_coach_terry_murray_gives_scouting_reports.html

Nice, this goes out to all the Alt doubters.

 

[Hiesenberg]

At some point, you need to give these guys an NHL shot. I know we want to go all in on the Red Wings model, but in our situation, that could create a back log where players aren't getting the looks they need to get in order to truly evaluate what you actually have. You're not going to have Morin, Gostisbehere, Sanheim, Hagg, and Alt debuting at the same time. Let the guys who are close get their feet wet and stagger the entries to the NHL so we can actually give each guy the type of ice time young players should be getting.

There needs to be openings. Flyers can't give their players away.

 

[Curufinwe]

At some point, you need to give these guys an NHL shot. I know we want to go all in on the Red Wings model, but in our situation, that could create a back log where players aren't getting the looks they need to get in order to truly evaluate what you actually have. You're not going to have Morin, Gostisbehere, Sanheim, Hagg, and Alt debuting at the same time. Let the guys who are close get their feet wet and stagger the entries to the NHL so we can actually give each guy the type of ice time young players should be getting.

That's true, but that point isn't any time this season for any of them for various reasons.

 

[Random Forest]

There needs to be openings. Flyers can't give their players away.

Well, obviously. But sooner than later, openings need to be made if you want to properly evaluate the talent you have in your pool.

If you wait for all the players to smack you in the head with their NHL readiness, you run the risk of either having too many young players on the roster or too many young players who are ready but being held back. Both aren't ideal situations.

If a guy like Alt can handle NHL ice time by the end of this season, let him get some games. Don't hold him back for the sake of giving your youngsters maximum AHL time. The last thing we need is to be faced with a blueline that can't afford it's players appropriate situational usage and having to deal someone away before you know what you have.

 

[Tripod]

I really like the way Murray looks at the players.

He certainly seems to be on the same page as Hextall that players are developed in the AHL and then only move up once ready.

Everyone wanted patience with the kids in the summer. Patience is more than 1 year.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Seems to have high hopes for Pettersson too.

 

[Stizzle]

At some point, you need to give these guys an NHL shot. I know we want to go all in on the Red Wings model, but in our situation, that could create a back log where players aren't getting the looks they need to get in order to truly evaluate what you actually have. You're not going to have Morin, Gostisbehere, Sanheim, Hagg, and Alt debuting at the same time. Let the guys who are close get their feet wet and stagger the entries to the NHL so we can actually give each guy the type of ice time young players should be getting.

You are getting way ahead of yourself here. That is not even close to our reality at the moment. No one in the AHL outside of maybe Cousins is close to a call up. We'll worry about working guys in when they are good and ready. For defenseman, Morin and Ghost will most likely come into the league next year sometime if they show well in the AHL.

 

[renberg]

I really like the way Murray looks at the players.

He certainly seems to be on the same page as Hextall that players are developed in the AHL and then only move up once ready.

Everyone wanted patience with the kids in the summer. Patience is more than 1 year.

Too bad Murray isn't coaching the Flyers.

 

[Random Forest]

You are getting way ahead of yourself here. That is not even close to our reality at the moment. No one in the AHL outside of maybe Cousins is close to a call up. We'll worry about working guys in when they are good and ready. For defenseman, Morin and Ghost will most likely come into the league next year sometime if they show well in the AHL.

I'm not saying we should have some of them playing now. Nor am I saying they should be playing before they're ready.

I'm saying that leaving them in the AHL until they are "more than ready" is no more favorable than playing them too early. There are serious problems that can and will arise if you wait too long with these players. At some point, you need to know what you have or else you end up with a handful of players competing for ice time and not enough to give because you're not going to have a blueline with more than two rookies.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Did I miss something? Since when have the Flyers left someone in the AHL until they were "more than ready"? If anything they have been the polar opposite. I know Hextall is running the show now, but hasn't done anything out of the ordinary. If anything I thought Laughton could have been sent back sooner.

 

[Random Forest]

Did I miss something? Since when have the Flyers left someone in the AHL until they were "more than ready"? If anything they have been the polar opposite. I know Hextall is running the show now, but if anything he deviated from his plan when he left Laughton up.

I didn't say they ever have...

I'm just saying it's not a strategy that we should necessarily follow.

Some of you guys read way too far into things. I'm only saying that we shouldn't wait for the sake of waiting. At some point these guys are going to get their chances, and I'd rather it not be all at once because we left a guy or two down there for too long.

Like I said, if Alt comes back from injury at the level he was at before he left, I say give him a chance in the NHL to finish the year. See if he can PK. See if he can take a regular shift. If he can, perhaps we won't need to feed him the easy minutes when guys like Morin or Gostisbehere need them. There's only so many easy minutes to go around. I'm not making a particularly complex or controversial claim here.

 

[Striiker]

I think some people go too far with the whole patience thing.

The whole point of this philosophy is to be patient until they're ready.

Not patient until they fulfill the predetermined x-amount of years at each level system.

When someone is ready then they're ready, it doesn't matter exactly how long they've spent at any level since every player develops differently.

IF Morin comes straight to the NHL next year instead of going to the AHL that doesn't mean Hextall has completely deserted the patience plan... it means he thinks Morin is ready to play in the NHL and that's the best place for him. It's not the same thing as a hypothetical situation where a player goes straight to the NHL after being drafted because he fulfills a team need... that's impatience.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I'm not saying we should have some of them playing now. Nor am I saying they should be playing before they're ready.

I'm saying that leaving them in the AHL until they are "more than ready" is no more favorable than playing them too early. There are serious problems that can and will arise if you wait too long with these players. At some point, you need to know what you have or else you end up with a handful of players competing for ice time and not enough to give because you're not going to have a blueline with more than two rookies.

Pretty much. The Flyers are going to potentially bring in a lot of defensemen into the organization over these next couple of years. You already have Hagg, Gostisbehere, & Alt at the AHL level this year. Gostisbehere probably the only one with a legit shot of catching on with big club next year but who knows with his injury. You're going to be adding Morin to that group next year (who knows what they do with him, probably 50/50). The year after that you're going to have Sanheim (it's early to tell but I think he's one who could possibly bypass the AHL), possibly Willcox (he'll be out of college eligibility), Friedman, & Vasiliev (his contract will be up in the KHL). You're likely going to have other players added to the mix via draft or trades.

The Flyers have stockpiled so many defensemen over these last couple of years they're not going to have the luxury to be ultra conservative.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I didn't say they ever have...

I'm just saying it's not a strategy that we should necessarily follow.

Some of you guys read way too far into things. I'm only saying that we shouldn't wait for the sake of waiting. At some point these guys are going to get their chances, and I'd rather it not be all at once because we left a guy or two down there for too long.

Like I said, if Alt comes back from injury at the level he was at before he left, I say give him a chance in the NHL to finish the year. See if he can PK. See if he can take a regular shift. If he can, perhaps we won't need to feed him easy minutes when guys like Morin or Gostisbehere need them.

I know you're worried about it. You made a topic earlier in the year about it. Personally, if the worst thing to happen is all of our defensemen pan out and we have to find ways to fit them into the lineup at the same time, then I will be a happy camper. And its not like we have veterans blocking the young guys. Only MacDonald is locked up long-term.

Mark Alt would have been lucky to get a cup of coffee this year even if he hadn't missed any time. He's not as good as some people make him out to be. He didn't get a sniff of making the roster in training camp despite being the best defenseman in Adirondack and being the oldest of the prospects. The one game he went up against an NHL lineup his head was spinning. Did Murray really say anything about him being an NHLer? He said he was big and could skate a little. He's most likely going to be a fringe NHLer, bottom pair, 7th defenseman type. He's right handed so he has that going for him, but I doubt you will see much of him until he needs to pass through waivers.

 

[Curufinwe]

Mark Alt would have been lucky to get a cup of coffee this year even if he hadn't missed any time. He's not as good as some people make him out to be. He didn't get a sniff of making the roster in training camp despite being the best defenseman in Adirondack and being the oldest of the prospects. The one game he went up against an NHL lineup his head was spinning. Did Murray really say anything about him being an NHLer? He said he was big and could skate a little. He's most likely going to be a fringe NHLer, bottom pair, 7th defenseman type. He's right handed so he has that going for him, but I doubt you will see much of him until he needs to pass through waivers.

Talk about seeing what you want to see.

"Yeah, (Alt) deserves to be in the conversation. At the start of the year I was asked that question and I said he's on track (to be an NHL player). Everything's going fine, (then) he's had a big setback here a couple of times this year (with injuries). He's an interesting player. He's big and he can really skate. He's got very nice speed. I like Mark Alt. He's a very intense, hard-working guy. He really cares. He's very passionate about playing the game the right way. I think he has to be put into that conversation because he's a high-character guy."

 

[Tripod]

I think some people go too far with the whole patience thing.

The whole point of this philosophy is to be patient until they're ready.

Not patient until they fulfill the predetermined x-amount of years at each level system.

When someone is ready then they're ready, it doesn't matter exactly how long they've spent at any level since every player develops differently.

IF Morin comes straight to the NHL next year instead of going to the AHL that doesn't mean Hextall has completely deserted the patience plan... it means he thinks Morin is ready to play in the NHL and that's the best place for him. It's not the same thing as a hypothetical situation where a player goes straight to the NHL after being drafted because he fulfills a team need... that's impatience.

Exactly.

But you still see people saying give Alt a shot. He hasn't been ready, and just came off an injury.

HE ISN'T READY.

This is what he said about Ghost:

On if Gostisbehere's defensive game is good enough for the NHL:
"No, it's not good enough, and that's the part we've got to work on. That's the part where it's unfortunate that he's injured right now and he's missing this kind of learning year for him. He's gonna get better at that. Every one of these kids you're talking about, (Sam) Morin or (Mark) Alt ... all these kids have to get better in the checking part of the game. You gotta be able to be a reliable player at critical times of the game, and that's a process."

On if Gostisbehere will need more time in the minors next season:
"That's a long way away. If he's gonna be a good defending defenseman, he's gonna have to get some experience at a lower level because it's too costly at the big league. The games are too important. The points are too important. It's tough to develop young defensemen in an environment that is today in the NHL."

HE CLEARLY THINKS GHOST ISN'T READY DEFENSIVELY.

People want to stagger the kids coming on D....which makes sense. But I think that stagger won't be as quick as some want.

 

[Larry44]

I know you're worried about it. You made a topic earlier in the year about it. Personally, if the worst thing to happen is all of our defensemen pan out and we have to find ways to fit them into the lineup at the same time, then I will be a happy camper. And its not like we have veterans blocking the young guys. Only MacDonald is locked up long-term.

Mark Alt would have been lucky to get a cup of coffee this year even if he hadn't missed any time. He's not as good as some people make him out to be. He didn't get a sniff of making the roster in training camp despite being the best defenseman in Adirondack and being the oldest of the prospects. The one game he went up against an NHL lineup his head was spinning. Did Murray really say anything about him being an NHLer? He said he was big and could skate a little. He's most likely going to be a fringe NHLer, bottom pair, 7th defenseman type. He's right handed so he has that going for him, but I doubt you will see much of him until he needs to pass through waivers.

Curufinwe put up Murray's quote, he definitely sees Alt as being in the conversation with the big 4 D prospects, making it 5.

If he had not been hurt, he certainly would have been recalled, probably instead of Gostisbehere, who only got recalled because Alt was hurt. And then after, when we had to sign Colaiacovo to get an NHL 6 together, they likely would have recalled Alt.

His game is improving and he has everything else, what more do you want in a prospect? Pro athlete bloodlines. Character. Work Ethic. Speed. Size. Skill.

He could earn a spot coming out of camp next year, and maybe get a recall soon, provided Boston keeps winning and the Flyers drop a couple more points this week.... that would free up Hexy to make some deals.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Talk about seeing what you want to see.

He's on track? What do you want him to say? He also says he's on par with Gostisbehere, Sanheim, and Morin as a prospect. Do you believe that too?

If he says he's not on track to be an NHL player that's pretty much an indictment on his job as a coach- a development coach.

 

[Random Forest]

I know you're worried about it. You made a topic earlier in the year about it. Personally, if the worst thing to happen is all of our defensemen pan out and we have to find ways to fit them into the lineup at the same time, then I will be a happy camper. And its not like we have veterans blocking the young guys. Only MacDonald is locked up long-term.

This is the problem, and exactly my point.

There isn't some simple "ready" or "not ready" threshold. Young players need to be guided along as they enter the NHL. They need easy minutes. They need to be spoon fed their roles.

That's why it's a potential issue. If they all force their way at once, you don't have the ice time necessary to guide them along. Then you end up wondering "Well, what if Hagg got a chance on the PK? Maybe he could have carved out a role?" or "Is Ghost really a liability or is he getting tougher minutes because the easy ones are going to Hagg and Sanheim?" or "Could Morin be more if he ever got a chance on the PP?"

I don't want to be faced with trading a player because we didn't give him the opportunity he needed to prove he could cut it. I want all our guys to be given a fair shot. I'm not saying there won't be busts (there will be)-- I'm saying we need to be smart about how the transition happens so we don't see a bust when there may be an NHL player there.

Very soon, our entire D corps will be different AND very young. That simply doesn't happen all at once. Even if all of them are "ready", it's still a recipe for disaster.

 

[Striiker]

Exactly.

But you still see people saying give Alt a shot. He hasn't been ready, and just came off an injury.

HE ISN'T READY.

This is what he said about Ghost:

On if Gostisbehere's defensive game is good enough for the NHL:
"No, it's not good enough, and that's the part we've got to work on. That's the part where it's unfortunate that he's injured right now and he's missing this kind of learning year for him. He's gonna get better at that. Every one of these kids you're talking about, (Sam) Morin or (Mark) Alt ... all these kids have to get better in the checking part of the game. You gotta be able to be a reliable player at critical times of the game, and that's a process."

On if Gostisbehere will need more time in the minors next season:
"That's a long way away. If he's gonna be a good defending defenseman, he's gonna have to get some experience at a lower level because it's too costly at the big league. The games are too important. The points are too important. It's tough to develop young defensemen in an environment that is today in the NHL."

HE CLEARLY THINKS GHOST ISN'T READY DEFENSIVELY.

People want to stagger the kids coming on D....which makes sense. But I think that stagger won't be as quick as some want.

Yeah, I don't think Ghost is ready yet, but I think he might have been ready for next year if he hadn't have missed so much time because of his injury.

I think he, Alt, and Hagg will all spend at least part of next season in the AHL, I'd be shocked if any of them made the team out of camp.

There's a 99.999% chance Sanheim goes back to the WHL and then all that's left to decide is what to do with Morin, which I think will be completely dependent on how he does in training camp. If he looks great then he might make the team but if he's anything other than impressive he'll be in the AHL for a while.

 

[Curufinwe]

He's on track? What do you want him to say? He also says he's on par with Gostisbehere, Sanheim, and Morin as a prospect. Do you believe that too?

If he says he's not on track to be an NHL player that's pretty much an indictment on his job as a coach- a development coach.

Then why didn't he say the same thing about Straka who has played under Murray just as long as Alt has and has the same draft pedigree?

On Straka's progress this season:
"Like we talked about with Robert Hagg, there's a little bit of that casual play there. It's a personality. He's got to be a little more competitive, a little more digging in the right places at the right time. He has speed. He has skill. He can pass the puck. He sees the ice. He can transport the puck. He's pretty good at that. But it's just a process that you've got to work through."

 

[FLYguy3911]

Curufinwe put up Murray's quote, he definitely sees Alt as being in the conversation with the big 4 D prospects, making it 5.

If he had not been hurt, he certainly would have been recalled, probably instead of Gostisbehere, who only got recalled because Alt was hurt. And then after, when we had to sign Colaiacovo to get an NHL 6 together, they likely would have recalled Alt.

His game is improving and he has everything else, what more do you want in a prospect? Pro athlete bloodlines. Character. Work Ethic. Speed. Size. Skill.

He could earn a spot coming out of camp next year, and maybe get a recall soon, provided Boston keeps winning and the Flyers drop a couple more points this week.... that would free up Hexy to make some deals.

Like I said if you believe he's on par with the Big 3, then you either don't watch these kids play or you don't know how to read in between the lines.

And once again Gostisbehere was recalled BEFORE Alt got hurt despite being 170 pounds and only having 5 professional games under his belt. Says a little something about the caliber of player he is.

If he was so close to the NHL you would think Hexy and company would have taken a longer look at him in NHL training camp, no?

Not to mention Carolina included him in a deal to dump a contract. Kind of tells you what knd of prospect you are dealing with.

Look I hope I have to eat my words about Alt, but I just think some people get carried away with him.

 

[Larry44]

Very soon, our entire D corps will be different AND very young. That simply doesn't happen all at once. Even if all of them are "ready", it's still a recipe for disaster.

And the current recipe is working so much better?

We NEED to make room for at least one rookie in the top 6 next year as a goal. Then let Alt, Morin, Ghost and Alt fight it out the right to start with the big club.

It all depends which players Hexy wants to keep around for the long haul and which ones he can get rid of before next year.
Does he really want to let Coburn go?
Streit isn't here for long and it might be worth trying to get something for him now, and resign MDZ for that role.
Grossmann is a guy I love but they need to trade him before he's UFA (next years's deadline if not this one) and decide to keep Luke as the big guy back there.
Macdonald is most problematic. He actually plays well with Luke. MDZ played well with Schultz.

Trade Coburn, Grossmann, let Carlo walk.

Streit-Alt/Morin
MDZ-Schultz
AndyMac-Luke

Then, Streit can go at next year's deadline, bring up Gost. Eventually we'll be able to get rid of Macdonald, or buy him out.

 

[Jack Straw]

I think some people go too far with the whole patience thing.

The whole point of this philosophy is to be patient until they're ready.

Not patient until they fulfill the predetermined x-amount of years at each level system.

When someone is ready then they're ready, it doesn't matter exactly how long they've spent at any level since every player develops differently.

IF Morin comes straight to the NHL next year instead of going to the AHL that doesn't mean Hextall has completely deserted the patience plan... it means he thinks Morin is ready to play in the NHL and that's the best place for him. It's not the same thing as a hypothetical situation where a player goes straight to the NHL after being drafted because he fulfills a team need... that's impatience.

The problem is, how do you decide when a player is "ready" for the NHL? Because that is going to be different for each player. Is Laughton ready for the NHL? You could certainly argue that he is good enough to play in the NHL right now, he's better than Rinaldo and probably a few other forwards on the team as well. But given the expectations (or hopes) the organization has for him, he will get better experience playing a bigger role on the Phantoms than a smaller role on the Flyers. And that's true for every one of the other prospects as well.

The purpose of having a developmental system is to develop the players, not throw them in the ocean as soon as they look like they can swim.

 

[sa cyred]

Like I said if you believe he's on par with the Big 3, then you either don't watch these kids play or you don't know how to read in between the lines.

And once again Gostisbehere was recalled BEFORE Alt got hurt despite being 170 and only having 5 professional games under his belt. Says a little something about the caliber of player he is.

If he was so close to the NHL you would think Hexy and company would have taken a longer look at him in NHL training camp, no?

Not to mention Carolina included him in a deal to dump a contract. Kind of tells you what knd of prospect you are dealing with.

Look I hope I have to eat my words about Alt, but I just think some people get carried away with him.

Eh I know we disagree on this... I think we did even last year. I was able to watch 60 games last year on the Phantoms and saw his progression. He was eating a ton of minutes and played all situations.

Obviously management disagrees with me (as do you) but I think he is NHL ready. He doesnt play the most "wow" game which doesnt get noticed like the big 4 guys (even Hagg).

My personal beleif? I think he gets traded to another team this trade deadline or next and goes on to be a solid 5/6 defender.