Prospect Info: 2014-15 (pt. 2): Phantoms (AHL), Reading Royals (ECHL), NCAA, Juniors, Int'l, etc.

[Psuhockey]

I understand the idea of spoon feeding players. At the same time, if you've got the horses, you have to let them run. If a team is worried about the young guys making mistakes, then the team's already failed them. The only way they're going to get on par is by making mistakes and learning from them. Spoon feeding them shields them from that and might end up causing more damage in the long run. Short term, yeah, you definitely want to limit their exposure, but at some time, you've got to let them get their feet wet to see if they're capable of performing or not.

Problem is the Flyers fan base and 18000 season ticket holders don't want to be crappy while the defensemen learn. The flyers were always going to be mediocre at best this year and there was a large contingent of fans just on message boards that hated the idea of tanking which says nothing of the ones who actually sell out thousands of dollars to see the product live.

Everyone is excited to see Morin and desperately want Grossmann gone but more than likely Morin will be much worst than Grossmann next year as he learns at the NHL level. It would be pretty great if he stepped in next year and was just as good. So Hextall is tasked with having these guys learn without being too much of a detriment to competing since the customers don't like losing.

 

[flyershockey]

https://vine.co/v/Oxb6LuTnD7J

When was that from?

 

[flyershockey]

Problem is the Flyers fan base and 18000 season ticket holders don't want to be crappy while the defensemen learn. The flyers were always going to be mediocre at best this year and there was a large contingent of fans just on message boards that hated the idea of tanking which says nothing of the ones who actually sell out thousands of dollars to see the product live.

Everyone is excited to see Morin and desperately want Grossmann gone but more than likely Morin will be much worst than Grossmann next year as he learns at the NHL level. It would be pretty great if he stepped in next year and was just as good. So Hextall is tasked with having these guys learn without being too much of a detriment to competing since the customers don't like losing.

You're way, way too down on how much of an impact Morin could make next year. Will he make his fair share of rookie mistakes? Sure. Am I'm comfortable saying that a 20 year old Morin is an upgrade on the current version of Grossmann? You bet I am. He's just a much better talent overall, and every single measurable goes in favor of him.

 

[Coffe]

When was that from?

Looks like the Monarchs logo on the ice and jerseys, it would be the game from Nov 7 then.

 

[Curufinwe]

Everyone is excited to see Morin and desperately want Grossmann gone but more than likely Morin will be much worst than Grossmann next year as he learns at the NHL level.

Worse, not worst.

 

[Jtown]

was that ghost? holy ****!

 

[FLYguy3911]

When was that from?

Looks like the Monarchs logo on the ice and jerseys, it would be the game from Nov 7 then.

Yup. It's from his last game. Kid was literally skating circles around them.

 

[Psuhockey]

Worse, not worst.

That's unpossible

 

[UKFlyers]

Problem is the Flyers fan base and 18000 season ticket holders don't want to be crappy while the defensemen learn. The flyers were always going to be mediocre at best this year and there was a large contingent of fans just on message boards that hated the idea of tanking which says nothing of the ones who actually sell out thousands of dollars to see the product live.

Everyone is excited to see Morin and desperately want Grossmann gone but more than likely Morin will be much worst than Grossmann next year as he learns at the NHL level. It would be pretty great if he stepped in next year and was just as good. So Hextall is tasked with having these guys learn without being too much of a detriment to competing since the customers don't like losing.

He would certainly not be much worse than a guy who has looked a liability at times in the past couple of seasons. Morin has everything that Gross doesn't: He's a great skater, has good Hockey I.Q, some offensive ability and will actually look for a pass rather than just firing it off his stick and hoping it finds a teammate. He does have his rough edges: Occasionally lets his emotions take control, makes the odd sloppy play defensively and his offence, whilst improving is still a bit of a work in progress, so I'm expecting him to start in the Phantoms to help round off and smooth out his game.

However, from what I've seen recently of him in the Q, he can flat out dominate at that level. Yes, the NHL is a sizeable step-up, but we've seen 18 year-olds in Ekblad and Jones come in and tear it up. Whilst they were both elite talents and obviously I wouldn't expect that from Morin, they've shown that you can make the step-up if you're good. And Morin is. I'm expecting him to start in the AHL, but I think he'll get the call-up at some point in the second half of next season and he'll stick providing he continues the way he's been going.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I firmly believe that short of Ghost coming back and disappointing the rest of this season, he should start the season on the 3rd pair in the NHL next season.

I both agree and disagree with Murray. No, he's not good enough defensively right now to play hard ES minutes against Malkins and Crosby's. But he plays the type of game defensively that might benefit from learning against easier NHL competition. He's smart and he's great with his stick. He just needs to adapt that know how to the NHL level.

Play him with high ES zone starts, PP#2, against weak ES competition and taper that back as he progresses throughout the year. In that situation he's already bringing an improvement to the club and I don't see it hurting his development at all

 

[Random Forest]

Since we're at an impasse, I'm just going to respond a few things for the sake of clarity:

I never said you let them get top level competition by choice. I'm saying it happens. You play on the road, you don't always get to pick the matchups. They are going to go against the best at some point, planned or not. They have to be ready for that. You can't shelter defensemen like you can forwards no matter how hard you try.

I didn't say he's never going to get a bad match up, but you still very much can make the transition easier for all of them. If Morin has the easy minutes next year, for example, perhaps he won't need the easy minutes when another guy is ready to break into the league.

This team is not going to be a contender the next few years barring winning the McDavid lottery. I know you've compared our situation to Chicago in the past so you obviously think otherwise.

I have literally never compared our situation to Chicago.

Who cares if they are ******* now. I thought you might like the Buffalo example as they are kind of doing what you hope the Flyers do. Breaking two kids in now and have a few more on the way, but you'll argue a point just to argue.

Buffalo is relying on kids more than they should. And Buffalo sucks. That's a pretty simple point, and it's certainly not arguing a point just to argue.

It's okay for Buffalo because they want to be 30th. Unless you want that to happen, that shouldn't be your plan.

Nothing Hextall has done, suggests to me he's handling these kids wrong or that he's going to handle these kids wrong.

I never said we are on the wrong track. I'm cautioning against a being too patient is all. I don't get why you guys keep going back to Hextall.



You make it sound as if I'm making some controversial, outlandish point. In reality, I'm only saying I don't want there to be a time where we have three or four rookies all breaking in at more or less the same time. I don't understand how that point is being derided. I think it's pretty self evident.

 

[Curufinwe]

I think Morin and Ghost will play in the NHL at some point next season, and Sanheim will play in 16-17. So that's three rookies breaking in over two years. It doesn't seem like we will draft high enough to get a rookie defensemen like Hanafin who will play in the NHL as an 18 or 19 year old.

Hagg may remain in the AHL for all of 15-16 and 16-17. Which would be OK. Some guys need more time to develop.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Since we're at an impasse, I'm just going to respond a few things for the sake of clarity:

I didn't say he's never going to get a bad match up, but you still very much can make the transition easier for all of them. If Morin has the easy minutes next year, for example, perhaps he won't need the easy minutes when another guy is ready to break into the league.

I have literally never compared our situation to Chicago.

Buffalo is relying on kids more than they should. And Buffalo sucks. That's a pretty simple point, and it's certainly not arguing a point just to argue.

It's okay for Buffalo because they want to be 30th. Unless you want that to happen, that shouldn't be your plan.


I never said we are on the wrong track. I'm cautioning against a being too patient is all. I don't get why you guys keep going back to Hextall.



You make it sound as if I'm making some controversial, outlandish point. In reality, I'm only saying I don't want there to be a time where we have three or four rookies all breaking in at more or less the same time. I don't understand how that point is being derided. I think it's pretty self evident.

We're going in circles here. I guess it comes down to you thinking there is going to be some log jam of defensemen and I don't. I see 3 for sure NHL defensemen in our prospects all at different stages of there development. How many do you see?

 

[Random Forest]

We're going in circles here. I guess it comes down to you thinking there is going to be some log jam of defensemen and I don't. I see 3 for sure NHL defensemen in our prospects all at different stages of there development. How many do you see?

I see zero. Nobody is a "for sure" NHL defenseman. You seem to think that I believe they all are sure bets. I do not.

My point is that at some time, they all will have to get their chance to show that they are capable of being NHL players, and when that time comes, I don't want prospects in positions that may make them appear better or worse than they are. I want the prospects evaluated properly, and I fear that being too patient may be counter to that goal because it won't allow the youngsters the proper ice time they need to carve out roles.

If a prospect fails, I want him to fail because he couldn't hack it. Not because he wasn't put in a position to succeed. That's all I am saying. The last thing I want is to have a prospect not get utilized properly, get traded, and then find success elsewhere because he's put in a more suitable environment. It's tough to give everyone that suitable environment when they're all getting the chance at around the same time. Does that make it any more clear? I don't know how else to put it.

 

[Appleyard]

I firmly believe that short of Ghost coming back and disappointing the rest of this season, he should start the season on the 3rd pair in the NHL next season.

I both agree and disagree with Murray. No, he's not good enough defensively right now to play hard ES minutes against Malkins and Crosby's. But he plays the type of game defensively that might benefit from learning against easier NHL competition. He's smart and he's great with his stick. He just needs to adapt that know how to the NHL level.

Play him with high ES zone starts, PP#2, against weak ES competition and taper that back as he progresses throughout the year. In that situation he's already bringing an improvement to the club and I don't see it hurting his development at all

I think he could definitely cope with that with his skill level.

Look at guys in a similar 'mould' in their debut years:

Vatanen: 54.1% OZ starts, -0.607 QoC rel
Krug: 66.2% OZ starts, -0.988 QoC rel
Karlsson: 58.9% OZ starts, -0.179 QoC rel
Letang: 51.1% OZ starts, -0.239 QoC rel
Yandle: 56.3% OZ starts, -1.194 QoC rel
Shattenkirk: 60.1% OZ starts, -0.121 QoC rel

 

[FLYguy3911]

I see zero. Nobody is a "for sure" NHL defenseman. You seem to think that I believe they all are sure bets. I do not.

My point is that at some time, they all will have to get their chance to show that they are capable of being NHL players, and when that time comes, I don't want prospects in positions that may make them appear better or worse than they are. I want the prospects evaluated properly, and I fear that being too patient may be counter to that goal because it won't allow the youngsters the proper ice time they need to carve out roles.

If a prospect fails, I want him to fail because he couldn't hack it. Not because he wasn't put in a position to succeed. That's all I am saying. The last thing I want is to have a prospect not get utilized properly, get traded, and then find success elsewhere because he's put in a more suitable environment. It's tough to give everyone that suitable environment when they're all getting the chance at around the same time. Does that make it any more clear? I don't know how else to put it.

Humor me.

How many of our current prospects become everyday regular NHL defensemen?

 

[Random Forest]

Humor me.

How many of our current prospects become everyday regular NHL defensemen?

If you pressed me to answer this now, I see Gostisbehere, Morin, and Sanheim becoming regulars. But that's beyond the point.

Your question shows me that you're still not understanding my point. Even if Hagg and Alt (and the other guys, too) bust, they still will need the opportunity to bust. When they get that NHL opportunity, I want them (all of them) to have favorable minutes that allow us to actually evaluate what they can be at the NHL level. If they squander that opportunity, so be it. But I don't want to see them fail only because we put them in a position to fail.

It's like what happened with Gustafsson and Akeson but with even higher stakes. Neither were put in positions to succeed, and many of us are still wondering whether they could have been NHL players if they were given proper roles. Not that the D prospects will be treated like those two, but there is a real chance of having a blueline that doesn't afford the young players the type of minutes they need to 1) transition smoothly to the NHL and 2) evaluate what they are capable of doing at the NHL level.

 

[FLYguy3911]

If you pressed me to answer this now, I see Gostisbehere, Morin, and Sanheim becoming regulars. But that's beyond the point.

Your question shows me that you're still not understanding my point. Even if Hagg and Alt (and the other guys, too) bust, they still will need the opportunity to bust. When they get that NHL opportunity, I want them (all of them) to have favorable minutes that allow us to actually evaluate what they can be at the NHL level. If they squander that opportunity, so be it. But I don't want to see them fail only because we put them in a position to fail.

It's like what happened with Gustafsson and Akeson but with even higher stakes. Neither were put in positions to succeed, and many of us are still wondering whether they could have been NHL players if they were given proper roles. Not that the D prospects will be treated like those two, but there is a real chance of having a blueline that doesn't afford the young players the type of minutes they need to 1) transition smoothly to the NHL and 2) evaluate what they are capable of doing at the NHL level.

I know exactly what you are saying I just don't agree with it. Not every prospect gets a chance in the NHL to show if they can stick. Especially if you expect this team to compete (which you stated you did). The evaluation process starts in the minors. Kevin Marshall is a perfect example of that. He just wasn't good enough. They didn't need him to play in the NHL to confirm their opinion. And he was an early second round pick. They had a little bit invested in him. Let guys prove they are too good to play in the AHL. We are no where near that point. I don't see any reason to be paranoid about a potential situation that if it does occur is still a few years away.

 

[deadhead]

I think y'all are thinking too much.
Hextall isn't going to rush anyone, but if they show they're close to ready, he's not shy about giving them a shot to prove they belong in the NHL.

The players will determine where they go next year in camp. That is, prospects lose all ties. if Morin and/or Sanheim are hands down among the 6 best defensemen, they'll start in the NHL and Hextall will move some veterans - if they're marginally a 6th defensemen they'll go to juniors/AHL. Same goes for Ghost. And for Laughton, Leier, Straka and Cousins. And NAK.

The key is not to push a player too fast, nor to hold them back when they show they're ready to play with the big boys - and you shouldn't let contracts and hurt feelings by veterans dictate these decisions.

 

[Random Forest]

I know exactly what you are saying I just don't agree with it. Not every prospect gets a chance in the NHL to show if they can stick. The evaluation process starts in the minors. Kevin Marshall is a perfect example of that. He just wasn't good enough. They didn't need him to play in the NHL to confirm their opinion. And he was an early second round pick. They had a little bit invested in him. Let guys prove they are too good to play in the AHL.

Every single one of the players in this discussion has surpassed Marshall at his best. Who of the D prospects do you believe won't at least get an extended NHL look sooner or later?

 

[FLYguy3911]

Every single one of the players in this discussion has surpassed Marshall at his best. Who of the D prospects do you believe won't at least get an extended NHL look sooner or later?

Marshall was just an example. I'm hopeful Alt turns out to be a useful piece but he hasn't done enough at the AHL level for me to start moving pieces around to make sure he has a spot in the lineup two years from now. I already stated I don't see Alt getting an extended look until late next year barring an unforeseen circumstance. I think he's a guy that's going to get passed on the depth chart soon (if he hasn't already) and they will make a decision on him when waivers come in to play. I don't see Hagg with the big club (full time) until at least 2016 probably the 16-17 season. He's just not as talented as the big 3 despite getting a head start in North America.

 

[Roo Mad Bro]

https://vine.co/v/Oxb6LuTnD7J

One man breakout machine.

Pair him with Morin and watch that pair run things.

 

[hatcher]

One man breakout machine.

Pair him with Morin and watch that pair run things.

He better not pull that **** at the NHL level or he'll be sitting.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

He better not pull that **** at the NHL level or he'll be sitting.

What makes you say that? Because it's dangerous? If it works, then it's okay. But I'm sure he'll be told not to do that again if it fails.

 

[Jtown]

He better not pull that **** at the NHL level or he'll be sitting.

on his throne in the HOF