GDT: #14 | Flyers at Lightning | Thursday, November 7, 2024 | 7:00 PM | ESPN+/Hulu

[CerpinTaxt]

The Flyers are not ruining Michkov after 12 NHL games.

Kucherov only started playing in the NHL as a 20 year old. 18 points in 53 games.

And this happened.



MONTREAL — It is here in the city where the Tampa Bay Lightning are trying to dash hockey dreams that one of their most dangerous forwards redefined himself.

A year ago Nikita Kucherov was a healthy scratch for playoff games at the Bell Centre. He was a slightly stubborn soul and an occasionally unwilling pupil. By the time training camp opened in September, some inside the organization wondered if he would even crack the NHL roster.



His rookie campaign in the NHL had been filled with incredible highs and lows. There was a goal against Henrik Lundqvist on his first shift and first shot in the league, but also some tense moments with the coaching staff during prolonged periods of ineffectiveness.

When it came to the deciding games of a first-round sweep by Montreal, he was sitting in the press box.



Like so many young players finding their way in the NHL, the Russian had much to learn about his positioning away from the puck. Last spring, coach Jon Cooper couldn’t fully trust that he would make the right decisions under playoff pressure.

“We had some battles during the year,” Cooper recalled this week. “He made that conscious choice: ‘Do I want to be a hockey player and understand that being on the right side of the puck (is important)?'”

His offensive gifts were obvious — and got him drafted 58th overall by Tampa in 2011 — but they would only ever be of limited use if the coach didn’t feel comfortable having him on the ice when it mattered.

Needless to say, that is no longer a problem.



“I’ve grown a lot and learned how to play defence, how to play for the team and not for my own stats and everything,” said Kucherov. “Team-first and defensive-zone first and I think I understand the situation now and (how) I have to play there.”

“I’ve watched players go both ways,” said Cooper. “Some guys haven’t made the choice and they just still want to try to do it their way and there’s other guys that have said, ‘you know what, I’m going to be a complete hockey player.’

“Kuch made that choice, and he chose wisely.”

Cool story Jan

 

[flyersnorth]

Cool story Jan

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but it's a real thing that happened.

Michkov won't be ruined because of a benching at 19 years old.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but it's a real thing that happened.

Michkov won't be ruined because of a benching at 19 years old.

I think the big difference is that a team like TB uses these things as an actual tool to build and develop players. The Flyers use this as a cudgel to beat talent out of players and punish players because that's what they love.

 

[flyersnorth]

I think the big difference is that a team like TB uses these things as an actual tool to build and develop players. The Flyers use this as a cudgel to beat talent out of players and punish players because that's what they love.

Maybe, I know it's easy for us to feel that way after a decade + of absolute skullduggery and gaslighting.

But, a lot of people look at Jon Cooper as an example of a good hockey coach. And he's saying all of the same things you hear Torts say. Needs to develop a two-way game, needs to be more engaged, needs to be a complete player, needs to show me I can trust him.

Of course, TB had Stamkos, Hedman, Vasy, Point, Palat, and on and on, whereas the Flyers have... Konecny?

There's a huge talent disparity gap between the two teams, and maybe the Flyers waste Michkov's career like they did with Giroux.

But Kuch is 31 and playing his best hockey ever.

Surely the Flyers can cobble together something coherent over the next 12 years, right?

Let's start with Hagens. Damn this team deserves something good for once.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Maybe, I know it's easy for us to feel that way after a decade + of absolute skullduggery and gaslighting.

But, a lot of people look at Jon Cooper as an example of a good hockey coach. And he's saying all of the same things you hear Torts say. Needs to develop a two-way game, needs to be more engaged, needs to be a complete player, needs to show me I can trust him.

Of course, TB had Stamkos, Hedman, Vasy, Point, Palat, and on and on, whereas the Flyers have... Konecny?

There's a huge talent disparity gap between the two teams, and maybe the Flyers waste Michkov's career like they did with Giroux.

But Kuch is 31 and playing his best hockey ever.

Surely the Flyers can cobble together something coherent over the next 12 years, right?

Let's start with Hagens. Damn this team deserves something good for once.

What you’re describing is blind hope. If you want to go that route, fair enough. Not everyone will.

Whether they bench Michkov or not, I have zero faith in their process. I don’t care about draft busts or who starts in the NHL. I care about why they do what they do. That’s my personal bar for earning faith.

 

[MayonnaiseOreo]

I think the big difference is that a team like TB uses these things as an actual tool to build and develop players. The Flyers use this as a cudgel to beat talent out of players and punish players because that's what they love.

Yeah but they won last night. Isn't that all that matters?

 

[CerpinTaxt]

Maybe, I know it's easy for us to feel that way after a decade + of absolute skullduggery and gaslighting.

But, a lot of people look at Jon Cooper as an example of a good hockey coach. And he's saying all of the same things you hear Torts say. Needs to develop a two-way game, needs to be more engaged, needs to be a complete player, needs to show me I can trust him.

Of course, TB had Stamkos, Hedman, Vasy, Point, Palat, and on and on, whereas the Flyers have... Konecny?

There's a huge talent disparity gap between the two teams, and maybe the Flyers waste Michkov's career like they did with Giroux.

But Kuch is 31 and playing his best hockey ever.

Surely the Flyers can cobble together something coherent over the next 12 years, right?

Let's start with Hagens. Damn this team deserves something good for once.

And I'm sure all that was because he was scratched one time during a playoff series when he was 20

 

[flyersnorth]

What you’re describing is blind hope. If you want to go that route, fair enough. Not everyone will.

Whether they bench Michkov or not, I have zero faith in their process. I don’t care about draft busts or who starts in the AHL. I care about why they do what they do. That’s my personal bar for earning faith.

I agree that it's about their processes. I feel like they are starting to understand. However they are still caught between modern thinking and hanging on to vestiges of the past. They are also caught in half-measures.

I don't control any of it, so the best I can do is "hope" that eventually, a franchise worth $2B owned by a company worth $169B will figure out their "processes" to be able to consistently ice a competent, relevant, sustainable product through a process that is sound and consistent in its rhetoric and its application.

Disagree. They do not IMO.

Why not?

Name a team you think is deserving.

Was Edmonton deserving of McDavid? Toronto of Matthews? Chicago of Bedard? NJ for Hischier, Hughes?

Was Vegas deserving of a Cup?

Curious what you think makes a team worthy of having some good fortune go their way.

And I'm sure all that was because he was scratched one time during a playoff series when he was 20

I said nothing even remotely close to that.

 

[Larry44]

I agree that it's about their processes. I feel like they are starting to understand. However they are still caught between modern thinking and hanging on to vestiges of the past. They are also caught in half-measures.

I don't control any of it, so the best I can do is "hope" that eventually, a franchise worth $2B owned by a company worth $169B will figure out their "processes" to be able to consistently ice a competent, relevant, sustainable product through a process that is sound and consistent in its rhetoric and its application.

You're lucky you still have hope!

 

[flyersnorth]

You're lucky you still have hope!

That's why it's in quotes lol

 

[deadhead]

I agree that it's about their processes. I feel like they are starting to understand. However they are still caught between modern thinking and hanging on to vestiges of the past. They are also caught in half-measures.

I don't control any of it, so the best I can do is "hope" that eventually, a franchise worth $2B owned by a company worth $169B will figure out their "processes" to be able to consistently ice a competent, relevant, sustainable product through a process that is sound and consistent in its rhetoric and its application.



Why not?

Name a team you think is deserving.

Was Edmonton deserving of McDavid? Toronto of Matthews? Chicago of Bedard? NJ for Hischier, Hughes?

Was Vegas deserving of a Cup?

Curious what you think makes a team worthy of having some good fortune go their way.



I said nothing even remotely close to that.

The Phillies did. Had to change the ownership group and get rid of the old guard.
Some of this was spending more money, not an option in the NHL.

A lot was upgrading scouting and development, which is more complex in baseball, but they established uniform procedures and new/better practice/training facilities from the DR to Clearwater and through the minor league system.

Took a false step and about five years, but they're now producing starter caliber prospects.

 

[ponder719]

a franchise worth $2B owned by a company worth $169B

I hate to say it, this is the core problem with the Flyers. They're a rounding error, a production company, content for the content mill, not a point of pride. The goal is to fill screen hours at a reasonable price, turn a profit if possible, be a loss leader if not, but there's no reason to be concerned with the outcome on the ice. Ongoing content doesn't truly end, so it doesn't require a happy ending.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I agree that it's about their processes. I feel like they are starting to understand. However they are still caught between modern thinking and hanging on to vestiges of the past. They are also caught in half-measures.

I don't control any of it, so the best I can do is "hope" that eventually, a franchise worth $2B owned by a company worth $169B will figure out their "processes" to be able to consistently ice a competent, relevant, sustainable product through a process that is sound and consistent in its rhetoric and its application.

I get what you mean.

For me personally, it’s not about half measures or starting a Crusade over the term rebuilding. There are two major related problems with allowing Michkov’s presence to give me hope. First is Briere’s answer to Charlie’s Buium question because it’s indefensible logic. But more importantly, it’s the organizational arrogance that to me is their hallmark through 5 front office generations. The idea that the Flyers stocked up on the 2025 draft years in advance and were perfectly fine taking less traditional value to do so means that from the very top, they have no idea of their own limitations. This is one issue that doesn’t change no matter your field.

Arrogance kills one holy hell of a lot more careers than it makes. Maybe it’ll work this time. Outliers do exist. But probably not.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[CerpinTaxt]

I agree that it's about their processes. I feel like they are starting to understand. However they are still caught between modern thinking and hanging on to vestiges of the past. They are also caught in half-measures.

I don't control any of it, so the best I can do is "hope" that eventually, a franchise worth $2B owned by a company worth $169B will figure out their "processes" to be able to consistently ice a competent, relevant, sustainable product through a process that is sound and consistent in its rhetoric and its application.



Why not?

Name a team you think is deserving.

Was Edmonton deserving of McDavid? Toronto of Matthews? Chicago of Bedard? NJ for Hischier, Hughes?

Was Vegas deserving of a Cup?

Curious what you think makes a team worthy of having some good fortune go their way.



I said nothing even remotely close to that.

And no one was saying Michkov is being ruined cause of a scratch he's being ruined by a dinosaur coach that knows nothing about coaching the game today. What do you think John asked Michkov to focus on during the game? "Hey Mad Russian see how we flip the puck out, barley transition, and then be one and done in the ozone? Do more of that". Torts called out his 5v5 play, which has been atrocious across the whole team. If he had said we are giving michkov a reset that would of been fine and dandy, but if Michkov is sitting because of perceived poor play then everyone on the team should take a turn on the scratch list. Don't see that happening.

 

[deadhead]

Michkov's last five games were atrocious. I think he was just tired and tired players play lazy.
He's been playing 17 minutes a night, and that's a lot of PT for a 19 year old kid who isn't a physical stud. TK at 19 played 70 of 82 games at 14 minutes a game.

He probably also has a lot of bad habits from being the "man" on a bad KHL team where he was expected to score, had he played on SKA, he's have been on a 2nd or 3rd line at 18 and been forced to play a more balanced game.

I have no idea why people get so bent out of shape, the team played better without him, more like last season. I don't think it's because of him, rather, he's simply not contributing enough 5x5 that they miss him there. Right now, he's a below average 5x5 player and a very good PP contributor.

He should be benched once a month and finish this year playing 70-75 games.
I'd also shelter him at 5x5 until his game improves - he's not going to carry the franchise for a few years, so don't have to force feed him as a rookie.

Kucherov (5x5 minutes)
20: 11:25 [52g]
21: 12:08
22: 13:52
23: 14:50

His first season, TB had missed the POs 5 of 6 seasons, so they weren't a juggernaut yet.

 

[ponder719]

When will the Flyers do this?

When they replace the people who decide whether scouting and development should be upgraded with people who recognize that they must be.

 

[deadhead]

It's hard to change scouting and development overnight.
For one thing, a lot of people you'd want to hire are on contract or want to stay where they are.

Fletcher did start making changes and increase resources for development and analytics, they have invested a lot of money upgrading Voorhees. Fletcher was probably better suited to be President with a good GM. He was an upgrade over Holmgren as President, b/c he at least understood you had to build an organization - Holmgren was a true Dino who thought "only he could fix it."

 

[deadhead]

CF wasn't an upgrade over anyone. All I see is excuses.

Flyers have plenty of $$$. No excuse not to have top of the line staff.

You won't know if they've upgraded for a few years.
When the Phillies hired Klentak, they made a bunch of changes, which mostly failed to pay off.
Then the next group came in and built upon the first wave.

And just b/c you fix one aspect . . . Carolina improved their pro personnel decision making, but so far, their drafting has gotten worse.

Of course, it's also difficult to separate out decisions from the noise, that is, are you making bad decisions or just the victim of bad luck.

Which is why good process is better than good results in the short run - because it's easy to be fooled by SSS and make bad decisions based on bad data.

 

[deadhead]

We are talking about the Flyers and that is what matters. Everything else is white noise and you're deflecting.

The Flyers do a not do a good a job overall. Where did they upgrade the scouting and development?

Serious question. Do the Flyers pay you? Do you go on other sites and defend them as well? If they don't make up a resume as you may be able to make some coin off your post. I bet you and "Jonesy" would be best buds.

I don't see the world in black and white terms. Sports, politics or history.

If someone does something good, I try to credit them, but also try to separate good decisions from lucky decisions.

if they do something bad, I'll criticize but also want to understand WHY they made a mistake, sometimes the reasoning is good but the result is bad, sometimes it's just bad judgement.

Group think is very strong around here these days, critical analysis not so much.
When you start with a conclusion, there is nothing to discuss.

Most decisions in business and sports are implicitly based on a perception of probability distributions, that is, what is the most likely outcome? And with insufficient or contradictory information, that's often a guessing game. "All models are wrong, some models are useful." We never really understand the underlying model, we just try to infer it from available data.

Process is really about how you determine and influence those probability distributions.
Judgement is how you utilize those distributions (are you risk adverse/perverse? Do you optimize expected value or weigh decisions toward maximizing value at higher risk).

 

[BernieParent]

The funniest outcome is the Flyers winning. And then going on a winning streak. And Tortorella refuses to change the lineup. By funny I mean hellish.

Catching up on this thread and we have a winner here. You're getting pretty lethal with the jinx posts, Magua!

 

[ponder719]

The funniest outcome is the Flyers winning. And then going on a winning streak. And Tortorella refuses to change the lineup. By funny I mean hellish.

Damn it, next time say the funniest outcome is Tortorella getting his beard caught in the grille of the EBUG's mask or something, that way at least we'd have an amusing visual to go with the hellish dystopia part.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I don't see the world in black and white terms. Sports, politics or history.

If someone does something good, I try to credit them, but also try to separate good decisions from lucky decisions.

if they do something bad, I'll criticize but also want to understand WHY they made a mistake, sometimes the reasoning is good but the result is bad, sometimes it's just bad judgement.

Group think is very strong around here these days, critical analysis not so much.
When you start with a conclusion, there is nothing to discuss.

Most decisions in business and sports are implicitly based on a perception of probability distributions, that is, what is the most likely outcome? And with insufficient or contradictory information, that's often a guessing game. "All models are wrong, some models are useful." We never really understand the underlying model, we just try to infer it from available data.

Process is really about how you determine and influence those probability distributions.
Judgement is how you utilize those distributions (are you risk adverse/perverse? Do you optimize expected value or weigh decisions toward maximizing value at higher risk).

Which is why I focus so hard on things we know are wrong like positional drafting or basing meaningful decisions on projecting the relative strength of the 25th pick in a draft that’s 18 months away.

I don’t have any idea whether Luchanko is going to be a better player than Buium. No one does. But I know their logic is so faulty that it should be concerning. That’s a much better indicator of future performance than one draft pick.

 

[Rebels57]

Had to be a confidence booster for Fedotov.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Had to be a confidence booster for Fedotov.

You know, I wanted to see if he celebrated the win at his end of the ice when they won in the shootout, but no one caught shit.