GDT: #14 | Flyers at Lightning | Thursday, November 7, 2024 | 7:00 PM | ESPN+/Hulu

[Hollywood Cannon]

You know, I wanted to see if he celebrated the win at his end of the ice when they won in the shootout, but no one caught shit.

 

[deadhead]

The most likely outcome is the Flyers still spinning their wheels. Not contending in the next 5 years or anytime soon.

Do you think Torst will be the coach for the 2025-2026 season to start? What is the most likely scenario in your opinion.

I think they're very happy with Torts, for a number of reasons.

1) winning is not the goal, player development is, and Torts stresses fundamentals but has been very patient with the young players. Patience doesn't mean hands off, it means don't over react.
2) Torts is installing an up tempo, forechecking scheme similar to Carolina, that's what Briere wants, and he's drafting for it.
3) Torts does not suppress offense, Briere was an undersized offense first forward who maximized his talent, if he thought Torts was the issue on offense he'd step in. Briere understands offense far more than Holmgren or Hextall did.

I think they're pleasantly surprised with how much Torts has mellowed.
He's still honest to a fault, but his press conferences have been level headed, no tantrums, no attempts to strangle so-called "reporters."

They don't expect to contend until 2027-28 or so, if making the playoffs was a priority, Briere would have made some moves to improve their chances.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Thanks for that. I couldn't find it anywhere. Yeah, that seems like a big weight was lifted off him mentally with that.

 

[flyersnorth]

I get what you mean.

For me personally, it’s not about half measures or starting a Crusade over the term rebuilding. There are two major related problems with allowing Michkov’s presence to give me hope. First is Briere’s answer to Charlie’s Buium question because it’s indefensible logic.

100%. It didn't add up.

I like Luchanko just fine, but it definitely felt like they passed up a superior talent in favour of someone that fit a position of need.

Maybe they end up being right, but to your point, they would end up being right because of luck and general unpredictability of outcomes, not because the process was sound.

But more importantly, it’s the organizational arrogance that to me is their hallmark through 5 front office generations. The idea that the Flyers stocked up on the 2025 draft years in advance and were perfectly fine taking less traditional value to do so means that from the very top, they have no idea of their own limitations. This is one issue that doesn’t change no matter your field.

Arrogance kills one holy hell of a lot more careers than it makes. Maybe it’ll work this time. Outliers do exist. But probably not.

Often it feels like they fully recognize the problem, and in some ways, the solution - or at least steps required to get there. Need more talent, draft is best place to find it, not focused on playoffs, need to rebuild the pipeline to create a sustainably competitive franchise, goal is Stanley Cup, not just playoffs, etc.

Then in the same breath, they appear unwilling to take the actions that would lead them there (trade, say, one of Sanheim, Laughton, or Konecny), and often take actions that are almost in direct contradiction (Hathaway, first day extension).

Again, it may work out, but not because the process was necessarily sound.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Thanks for that. I couldn't find it anywhere. Yeah, that seems like a big weight was lifted off him mentally with that.

No problem. It was sourced from this Twitter post if you care also.

 

[deadhead]

I don't buy Buium was too small, he was 6'0 186 at the combine, will probably end up 200+ lbs when it's all said and done. That's substantially bigger than York, Andrae or Drysdale.

Briere pretty much said they had Buium and Luchanko in similar tiers, they probably saw Buium as the better player, but Luchanko had more upside due to his age and lack of experience.

I think it's more about Luchanko being the fit to the style of play they want to implement, an up tempo aggressive forecheck. A fast high IQ center can cover for the other four on the ice and allow them to take more risks on offense.

I also think D-men like Buium are easier to find, Parkeh in the same draft, Huston, etc.
It's easier to find a top offensive D-man than a top center or physical mobile two way D-men.

The strategy is valid, if Luchanko is the same tier as Buium.
The question is whether their evaluation of their relative talent is valid.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Maybe, I know it's easy for us to feel that way after a decade + of absolute skullduggery and gaslighting.

But, a lot of people look at Jon Cooper as an example of a good hockey coach. And he's saying all of the same things you hear Torts say. Needs to develop a two-way game, needs to be more engaged, needs to be a complete player, needs to show me I can trust him.

Of course, TB had Stamkos, Hedman, Vasy, Point, Palat, and on and on, whereas the Flyers have... Konecny?

There's a huge talent disparity gap between the two teams, and maybe the Flyers waste Michkov's career like they did with Giroux.

But Kuch is 31 and playing his best hockey ever.

Surely the Flyers can cobble together something coherent over the next 12 years, right?

Let's start with Hagens. Damn this team deserves something good for once.

Cooper actually coaches. Tortorella doesn't, and he is proud of that. They aren't comparable.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don't buy Buium was too small, he was 6'0 186 at the combine, will probably end up 200+ lbs when it's all said and done. That's substantially bigger than York, Andrae or Drysdale.

Briere pretty much said they had Buium and Luchanko in similar tiers, they probably saw Buium as the better player, but Luchanko had more upside due to his age and lack of experience.

I think it's more about Luchanko being the fit to the style of play they want to implement, an up tempo aggressive forecheck. A fast high IQ center can cover for the other four on the ice and allow them to take more risks on offense.

I also think D-men like Buium are easier to find, Parkeh in the same draft, Huston, etc.
It's easier to find a top offensive D-man than a top center or physical mobile two way D-men.

The strategy is valid, if Luchanko is the same tier as Buium.
The question is whether their evaluation of their relative talent is valid.

Um didn't you repeatedly parrot the organization's claim that he was too small?

 

[deadhead]

Um didn't you repeatedly parrot the organization's claim that he was too small?

No. Quite the opposite.
He's not a big physical mobile D-man like Dickinson, who they might have preferred.
But he's probably close to the median (once he fills out) of NHL D-men.

The interesting thing is from a PR perspective, he'd be a much better sell in Philadelphia than Jett.

 

[Cody Webster]

Nice for Fedotov to finally bag an NHL win. Tampa went easy on him in the shootout.

I really enjoy watching Andrae. Brink had some good moments today. Tippett's goal was a beauty.

Pretty pedestrian game, otherwise.

Tampa going easy in the shootout sums up @VladDrag breakaway attempt last night

 

[Cody Webster]

I don't buy Buium was too small, he was 6'0 186 at the combine, will probably end up 200+ lbs when it's all said and done. That's substantially bigger than York, Andrae or Drysdale.

Briere pretty much said they had Buium and Luchanko in similar tiers, they probably saw Buium as the better player, but Luchanko had more upside due to his age and lack of experience.

I think it's more about Luchanko being the fit to the style of play they want to implement, an up tempo aggressive forecheck. A fast high IQ center can cover for the other four on the ice and allow them to take more risks on offense.

I also think D-men like Buium are easier to find, Parkeh in the same draft, Huston, etc.
It's easier to find a top offensive D-man than a top center or physical mobile two way D-men.

The strategy is valid, if Luchanko is the same tier as Buium.
The question is whether their evaluation of their relative talent is valid.

Briere all but said he was too small.

 

[deadhead]

Briere all but said he was too small.

I think Briere's point was that he didn't fit what they were looking for in a D-man.
Think they value size (around the net) and speed/skating (to lead the rush out of the D-zone).

But if they really thought Buium was an elite player, they would have taken him.
Michkov is listed at 5'10 176 (EP), 5'10 190 (TC). That didn't stop them.

So it's more like yeah, he's better than the small D-men we have, but it would just upgrade without balancing our group. We can find guys like that in the future, but we've tried for a decade to find top six centers.

G (2006, moved to LW), Couts (2011, slow), Laughton (2012). Only center from the draft since is Frost.
They've patched for years, traded for B Schenn, LeCavelier, Weal, Lehtera, Filppula, signed White, PEB, drafted Patrick, signed Poehling, converted Cates.

And now we have Couts, who's looking like a top 6 center but is 32.
Frost, looking more like a 3C, Laughton (30) 3C/4C, Poehling and Cates 4C.
So I expect Briere to prioritize center in this draft.

 

[BernieParent]

I've only played that once bb

What did you do 2 weeks later?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

No one thinks Buium is on Michkov's level as a prospect. We do not have to do this every time where we twist ourselves into pretzels to justify what they openly said out loud.

 

[renberg]

We are talking about the Flyers and that is what matters. Everything else is white noise and you're deflecting.

The Flyers do a not do a good a job overall. Where did they upgrade the scouting and development?

Serious question. Do the Flyers pay you? Do you go on other sites and defend them as well? If they don't make up a resume as you may be able to make some coin off your post. I bet you and "Jonesy" would be best buds.

Personal attacks aren’t good ideas. We all have opinions that others disagree with. No need to rip on a poster.

 

[deadhead]

No one thinks Buium is on Michkov's level as a prospect. We do not have to do this every time where we twist ourselves into pretzels to justify what they openly said out loud.

That's the point. They didn't think Buium was special, "rush to the podium and get your pick in."
They liked him but they also liked Luchanko
In three years we'll know if they mis-evaluated Luchanko or identified a rising talent.

 

[deadhead]

Agree, that means they will probably not take the BPA. Whoever they take will be years away and contribute in any meaningful way bu 27/28 season when they want to "contend".


What personal attack? Not sure where you come up with "ripping" on a poster from.

BPA presumes a player is clearly better.

Teams tend to lump players in tiers of similarly valued players, b/c the difference within a tier is probably too small to be meaningful (you're often comparing apples and oranges). If you're using other criteria to choose within a tier, you're still going BPA.

Reaching is when you take a player from a lower tier.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

That's the point. They didn't think Buium was special, "rush to the podium and get your pick in."
They liked him but they also liked Luchanko
In three years we'll know if they mis-evaluated Luchanko or identified a rising talent.

That's not the point. Please listen to what I'm saying instead of telling me. There are two tiers of prospect for me between a Michkov and a Luchanko. Buium is on one of those two.

We won't know anything for sure in 3 years because development is not this reductive no matter how many times you say it is.

BPA presumes a player is clearly better.

Teams tend to lump players in tiers of similarly valued players, b/c the difference within a tier is probably too small to be meaningful (you're often comparing apples and oranges). If you're using other criteria to choose within a tier, you're still going BPA.

Reaching is when you take a player from a lower tier.

A clearly better prospect. Which he is. Someone picked in the 4th round could be the best player in a decade. That doesn't mean 100+ picks will have been mistakes. You operate with the best info you have, not one timeline hindsight.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think Briere's point was that he didn't fit what they were looking for in a D-man.

Considering this team's history with dmen, this is terrible news. Because we know that whatever it is they look for in dmen, is very very bad. And him not fitting that is great.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

The Flyers draft and build rosters focusing on filling roles. Once you fill that role, you no longer need to pay attention to that area. Rinse and repeat. They’ve been trying to fill the Ghost role since he left.

Believe them when they tell you that they didn’t look his direction because they already have “small” d-men in the system. That philosophy has matched their actions for years. Everything is built on roles and archetypes.

 

[Curufinwe]

It's only Provorov, Ellis, Sanheim, York, Yandle, Angelo, Zamula, Risto, and Drysdale that have been used as PP QBs since they ran Ghost out of town

 

[deadhead]

That's not the point. Please listen to what I'm saying instead of telling me. There are two tiers of prospect for me between a Michkov and a Luchanko. Buium is on one of those two.

We won't know anything for sure in 3 years because development is not this reductive no matter how many times you say it is.

If they thought the two players were in the same tier, then they made the right move.
That is, the strategy was correct (take the player who is a better fit), the question is whether their talent evaluation was correct.

Now I presume with video editors, scouts, etc. they put far more resources into talent evaluation than amateurs do. Whether they do so correctly? That's for time to tell.

My suspicion is they initially had Luchanko far lower, but after a closer look saw a kid filling out his body, maybe getting even faster (as he adds lower body strength) showing playmaking ability (with inferior linemates), etc. They may think he has the potential to further develop.

With Buium it's possible scouts looked at him and started to think he's a very good player but filled out early, a hard worker who maxed out his physical potential (think Provorov). So "what you see is what you get," which would explain why he dropped.

None of this means they're right. Projecting 18 year olds is a really difficult task

 

[JojoTheWhale]

If they thought the two players were in the same tier, then they made the right move.
That is, the strategy was correct (take the player who is a better fit), the question is whether their talent evaluation was correct.

Now I presume with video editors, scouts, etc. they put far more resources into talent evaluation than amateurs do. Whether they do so correctly? That's for time to tell.

My suspicion is they initially had Luchanko far lower, but after a closer look saw a kid filling out his body, maybe getting even faster (as he adds lower body strength) showing playmaking ability (with inferior linemates), etc. They may think he has the potential to further develop.

With Buium it's possible scouts looked at him and started to think he's a very good player but filled out early, a hard worker who maxed out his physical potential (think Provorov). So "what you see is what you get," which would explain why he dropped.

None of this means they're right. Projecting 18 year olds is a really difficult task

Potential is factored in when you’re making your tier list. What you’re saying here is counting it twice. It’s like when people insisted Xavier Worthy had to move up draft boards because he ran a great 40. We already knew he was fast. We already knew Luchanko was young.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Draft for fit when everything but RW is a need is a terrible strategy.

 

[volnoir]

If they thought the two players were in the same tier, then they made the right move.
That is, the strategy was correct (take the player who is a better fit), the question is whether their talent evaluation was correct.

No then they still made the wrong move. This years draft is C heavy, last years draft was D heavy. In those specific scenarios you will almost always have a prospect who is very good fall. In this D heavy draft it was Buium. They should have picked him with the knowledge that next year they can get their 1C prospect in a C heavy draft (having 3 1st round picks no less).