YZERMAN: "We’re building a nucleus of young prospects that are going to be part of this team."

[FriendlyGhost92]

I think we're getting close to the point where we start weaponizing picks to fill the holes we need to fill.

Probably not 2025, but I can see 2026 moving our 1st to address a position of need.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I think we're getting close to the point where we start weaponizing picks to fill the holes we need to fill.

Probably not 2025, but I can see 2026 moving our 1st to address a position of need.

I think that's possible...a #3 legit dman or top 4 forward is our biggest organizational need(s)

 

[Winger98]

I think that's possible...a #3 legit dman or top 4 forward is our biggest organizational need(s)

If we could have brought in a top3 D I think you would have seen that pick moved last year, to be honest. I think picks are definitely in play to be moved for guys in their mid-20s who have the potential to fill a hole for 5+ years.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

If we could have brought in a top3 D I think you would have seen that pick moved last year, to be honest. I think picks are definitely in play to be moved for guys in their mid-20s who have the potential to fill a hole for 5+ years.

Nah.

I don't think Yzerman wants to make the same mistake OTT/NJD did of selling top picks too early.

 

[Gniwder]

It's crazy I raced this dude in the 100 yard dash. They stated 50 yards behind the starting line and I started 50 yards ahead of the starting line. What's crazy is I won and it wasn't even close.

It's more like a marathon than a 100 yard dash, by now Stevie should have caught up but he's barely keeping pace. The team is now tied for the 6th longest playoff drought ever.

List of NHL franchise post-season droughts - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(And also the 11th longest current playoff win drought)

I'm not sure where the line is drawn between meaningless and not.

Jacob Markström last 3 seasons: .907sv%, 2.62GAA
Cam Talbot last 3 seasons: .909sv%, 2.70GAA

One of them is viewed as a major addition, the other is meaningless. I wouldn't be surprised if that's how Yzerman looks at it too; should we really be paying 1st round picks and prospects/young roster players for players who are only marginally better than what we can get in FA for "only" cap space?

Imo this is the riskiest point of the rebuild because if you're sitting there thinking none of our prospects could possibly exceed expectations it starts getting real attractive to trade a few of them. That's how you end up acquiring Andrew Raycroft for the price of Tuukka Rask, a Scott Gomez for the price of young Ryan McDonagh, or even moving a Carter Verhaeghe because you don't have patience for anyone not developing ultra-fast.

I like the Talbot signing, but let's keep in mind he's on a 2 year contract at age 37. He's a placeholder for Cossa and Gus. The team only missed the playoffs by one game, and I think Cam could be the difference this season. Problem is, the team is weak at 2C, so I doubt they get past the first round.

A GM has to take risks to win the Cup. Signing Bob and trading for Tkachuck were both risky moves that worked out for FLA. The Caps overpaid for Niskanen and Orpik.

At this point, I'm hoping some of the second tier prospects like Gus, Buium, Belcher, Plante, Buch to exceed expectations within 3 years, so Stevie can make a big trade with a team with salary cap issues.

 

[Retire91]

It's more like a marathon than a 100 yard dash, by now Stevie should have caught up but he's barely keeping pace. The team is now tied for the 6th longest playoff drought ever.

List of NHL franchise post-season droughts - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(And also the 11th longest current playoff win drought)


I like the Talbot signing, but let's keep in mind he's on a 2 year contract at age 37. He's a placeholder for Cossa and Gus. The team only missed the playoffs by one game, and I think Cam could be the difference this season. Problem is, the team is weak at 2C, so I doubt they get past the first round.

A GM has to take risks to win the Cup. Signing Bob and trading for Tkachuck were both risky moves that worked out for FLA. The Caps overpaid for Niskanen and Orpik.

At this point, I'm hoping some of the second tier prospects like Gus, Buium, Belcher, Plante, Buch to exceed expectations within 3 years, so Stevie can make a big trade with a team with salary cap issues.

A complete miscounting for how depleted this team was when Yzerman took over. We sign up to the playoffs and we don't have half of the youth we are going into next season with.

 

[Gniwder]

A complete miscounting for how depleted this team was when Yzerman took over. We sign up to the playoffs and we don't have half of the youth we are going into next season with.

The team missed the playoffs by one game, it certainly would not have taken half the youth. One or two depending on which player, for example Horvat would have cost Hronek (ASP) + Kasper. Problem is, that still doesn't get the team to a Cup, just the second round.

Plus, a depleted roster doesn't excuse Stevie for wasting a bunch of 2nd round picks.

 

[norrisnick]

The team missed the playoffs by one game, it certainly would not have taken half the youth. One or two depending on which player, for example Horvat would have cost Hronek (ASP) + Kasper. Problem is, that still doesn't get the team to a Cup, just the second round.

Plus, a depleted roster doesn't excuse Stevie for wasting a bunch of 2nd round picks.

Another problem being that it dramatically shortens the window before it even opens. ASP and Kasper are 10 years younger than Horvat. That mythical trade is one made by a team that's already been in the hunt and needs a bit of oomph. Yzerman yeeted Hronek for a pick because he was going to be too expensive too soon relative to when the rest of the pieces of the team are coming together. Horvat is even older and more expensive. It's a move that never would have fit what is being built.

 

[Retire91]

The team missed the playoffs by one game, it certainly would not have taken half the youth. One or two depending on which player, for example Horvat would have cost Hronek (ASP) + Kasper. Problem is, that still doesn't get the team to a Cup, just the second round.

Plus, a depleted roster doesn't excuse Stevie for wasting a bunch of 2nd round picks.

I would not trade Yzerman's current draft record for a couple of meaningless playoff appearances where we would have been destroyed. We did that for so many seasons with Holland I would have thought everyone had their fill. I would rather have the solid core Yzerman picked that we may not have had if we monkey with the draft position for meaningless playoff appearances using UFA that contract handcuff us from ever building a cup contender. This core will be competitive starting this season and going forward for a "long time". There are no shortcuts in life, there is luck, but there are no shortcuts. I do understand and respect having a beef with the way things are. But in this case I can not share it.

 

[Gniwder]

Another problem being that it dramatically shortens the window before it even opens. ASP and Kasper are 10 years younger than Horvat. That mythical trade is one made by a team that's already been in the hunt and needs a bit of oomph. Yzerman yeeted Hronek for a pick because he was going to be too expensive too soon relative to when the rest of the pieces of the team are coming together. Horvat is even older and more expensive. It's a move that never would have fit what is being built.

The Cup window is short for every team, that's the purpose of the salary cap. Even if the stars are locked in, the secondary pieces will go for the money like Kadri or Stephenson. Verhaeghe is UFA next season (Bennett and Ekblad as well). Bob is 35 years old.

As for the Red Wings, Horvat is only a year older than DBoss. Unless Danielson becomes a legit 1C, the window starts closing soon anyways. 1C and 1D are the hardest positions to acquire. Also, Horvat is cheaper than Copp + Compher. Kasper or Danielson could be playing 3C this season.

I would not trade Yzerman's current draft record for a couple of meaningless playoff appearances where we would have been destroyed. We did that for so many seasons with Holland I would have thought everyone had their fill. I would rather have the solid core Yzerman picked that we may not have had if we monkey with the draft position for meaningless playoff appearances using UFA that contract handcuff us from ever building a cup contender. This core will be competitive starting this season and going forward for a "long time". There are no shortcuts in life, there is luck, but there are no shortcuts. I do understand and respect having a beef with the way things are. But in this case I can not share it.

You obviously think more highly of the forward prospects than I do. I see a lineup that doesn't have enough offensive firepower or size to win the Cup. Kasper and Mazur's "grit" gets squashed by either of the Tkachuck brothers.

 

[norrisnick]

The Cup window is short for every team, that's the purpose of the salary cap. Even if the stars are locked in, the secondary pieces will go for the money like Kadri or Stephenson. Verhaeghe is UFA next season (Bennett and Ekblad as well). Bob is 35 years old.

As for the Red Wings, Horvat is only a year older than DBoss. Unless Danielson becomes a legit 1C, the window starts closing soon anyways. 1C and 1D are the hardest positions to acquire. Also, Horvat is cheaper than Copp + Compher. Kasper or Danielson could be playing 3C this season.

And Larkin should be the grizzled veteran presence for a team built around the core of Mo, Ray, Ed, Cossa/Trey, ASP, Kasper, Danielson, etc...

C&C Music Factory outscored Horvat and were the top PK pairing compared to Bo's mop up PK duties.

And to address your other point of not being enamored with the kids coming up. That's fine. But that's the group that Yzerman is building. They either work or they don't. Horvat doesn't change that in any way whatsoever.

 

[Gniwder]

And Larkin should be the grizzled veteran presence for a team built around the core of Mo, Ray, Ed, Cossa/Trey, ASP, Kasper, Danielson, etc...

C&C Music Factory outscored Horvat and were the top PK pairing compared to Bo's mop up PK duties.

And to address your other point of not being enamored with the kids coming up. That's fine. But that's the group that Yzerman is building. They either work or they don't. Horvat doesn't change that in any way whatsoever.

Horvat would have put the Wings in the playoffs this season. Those games DBoss missed really hurt. It's gonna hurt again this season, Stevie did nothing to address that issue. If Dylan misses any significant time, the team misses the playoffs again.

Also, the Isles would have missed the playoffs without Bo. That pretty much would have sealed a spot for the Wings.

 

[Henkka]

Horvat would have put the Wings in the playoffs this season.

"In return, Vancouver received NHLer Anthony Beauvillier, 20-year-old prospect Aatu Raty and a top-12 protected 2023 first-round pick. They will also retain 25 per cent of Horvat's remaining cap hit."

**

You add that 8 million in cap, and don't have then Compher and Kane as 2023 UFA additions.

And also lose in a trade another 2023 1st rounder (Sandin Pellikka) + roster player with a level of Beauviller (Berggren) and a 2nd round drafted prospect like Räty (Wallinder/Buium).

So it's:

Horvat <> Compher + Kane + Sandin Pellikka + Berggren + Wallinder/Buium.

Quite a price for a playoff spot.

Think Stevie did just fine, by not going after Horvat. Not losing any assets, and getting free assets in Compher and Kane. Improved the team and did not lose the future.

 

[Pavels Dog]

A GM has to take risks to win the Cup. Signing Bob and trading for Tkachuck were both risky moves that worked out for FLA. The Caps overpaid for Niskanen and Orpik.

Right, but those are moves you make at a certain point in time, which might be 3-5 years from now if not more. Huberdeau was a 3rd overall pick that was traded 10 years after being drafted, it would be equivalent to us trading Raymond 6 years from now. Signing a big goalie like Bob is what we do if it turns out Cossa and Augustine are not what we hope.

This is also why I'm not as deathly afraid of a future where every prospect tops out as a 2nd/3rd liner. Package a couple of 2nd liners and some draft capital and it's not impossible to acquire upgrades. It's hard, but not impossible.

 

[Henkka]

Right, but those are moves you make at a certain point in time, which might be 3-5 years from now if not more. Huberdeau was a 3rd overall pick that was traded 10 years after being drafted, it would be equivalent to us trading Raymond 6 years from now. Signing a big goalie like Bob is what we do if it turns out Cossa and Augustine are not what we hope.

This is also why I'm not as deathly afraid of a future where every prospect tops out as a 2nd/3rd liner. Package a couple of 2nd liners and some draft capital and it's not impossible to acquire upgrades. It's hard, but not impossible.

Yzerman has been at his best at hockey trades. We just need that deep talent pool, and then the trade fest will start.

- 2013 traded Conacher + 4th for Ben Bishop
- 2014 traded Martin St. Louis away to NYR, for 2x 1sts + Ryan Callahan
- 2015 traded Brett Connolly away for 2x 2nds from BOS
- 2016 traded Tony DeAngelo for 2nd PHX
- 2017 traded Jonathan Drouin for Sergachev
- 2017 traded Bishop + 5th <> Cernak + Budaj + 7th
- 2018 traded Kristers Gudlevskis for Carter Verhaege
- 2018 traded 3 players + 1st + 2nd for McDonagh + JT Miller

So players did come and go, he signed UFAs like Filppula and Brewer and traded them away after few seasons for picks. Used picks to buy in buy-trades. Didn't hang on own prospects etc. Went hard after big fish at the deadline. Just full playbook of any kind of NHL trades.

For 3 first Tampa years, it was just minor trades, and bolstering the roster with UFAs (mostly experience and placeholders) and keeping kids on the farm.

Sounds familiar... at Detroit.

 

[Retire91]

The Cup window is short for every team, that's the purpose of the salary cap. Even if the stars are locked in, the secondary pieces will go for the money like Kadri or Stephenson. Verhaeghe is UFA next season (Bennett and Ekblad as well). Bob is 35 years old.

As for the Red Wings, Horvat is only a year older than DBoss. Unless Danielson becomes a legit 1C, the window starts closing soon anyways. 1C and 1D are the hardest positions to acquire. Also, Horvat is cheaper than Copp + Compher. Kasper or Danielson could be playing 3C this season.



You obviously think more highly of the forward prospects than I do. I see a lineup that doesn't have enough offensive firepower or size to win the Cup. Kasper and Mazur's "grit" gets squashed by either of the Tkachuck brothers.

This isn't the final product lol. It's year 5 of fixing one of the worst teams in modern times.

 

[dalem177]

This thread leaves me wondering who has hurt the Wings the most over the last 25 years:

1) Holland
2) Babcock
3) Yzerman
4) Gozer the Gozerian

 

[jkutswings]

Gozer the Gozerian

*in the voice of Winston Zeddemore*

When somebody asks you if you're realgud...you say YES!!!

 

[norrisnick]

Horvat would have put the Wings in the playoffs this season. Those games DBoss missed really hurt. It's gonna hurt again this season, Stevie did nothing to address that issue. If Dylan misses any significant time, the team misses the playoffs again.

Also, the Isles would have missed the playoffs without Bo. That pretty much would have sealed a spot for the Wings.

Which would be completely irrelevant to the plan. The goal is not to simply get into the playoffs. That's Leafs thinking right there...

 

[Retire91]

I naively thought that after what we went through with Holland and the Mike Illich streak us into the ground days that being taken to the promise land would be a unified place. LOL I have resigned myself to the fact that someone is always unhappy and arguing is a way of life.

 

[Gniwder]

"In return, Vancouver received NHLer Anthony Beauvillier, 20-year-old prospect Aatu Raty and a top-12 protected 2023 first-round pick. They will also retain 25 per cent of Horvat's remaining cap hit."

**

You add that 8 million in cap, and don't have then Compher and Kane as 2023 UFA additions.

And also lose in a trade another 2023 1st rounder (Sandin Pellikka) + roster player with a level of Beauviller (Berggren) and a 2nd round drafted prospect like Räty (Wallinder/Buium).

So it's:

Horvat <> Compher + Kane + Sandin Pellikka + Berggren + Wallinder/Buium.

Quite a price for a playoff spot.

Think Stevie did just fine, by not going after Horvat. Not losing any assets, and getting free assets in Compher and Kane. Improved the team and did not lose the future.

It would have been Kasper + Hronek. The Canucks wanted Hronek bad. Might as well throw Burger in there since he's being under utilized. That means no ASP though.

Right, but those are moves you make at a certain point in time, which might be 3-5 years from now if not more. Huberdeau was a 3rd overall pick that was traded 10 years after being drafted, it would be equivalent to us trading Raymond 6 years from now. Signing a big goalie like Bob is what we do if it turns out Cossa and Augustine are not what we hope.

This is also why I'm not as deathly afraid of a future where every prospect tops out as a 2nd/3rd liner. Package a couple of 2nd liners and some draft capital and it's not impossible to acquire upgrades. It's hard, but not impossible.

Larkin is aging, 3 to 5 years from now, he might not be a 1C any more, especially since he relies on speed so much. Then what? The entire plan falls apart unless Danielson winds up being a legit 1C.

If the plan was to wait until 2029 to go for the Cup, then Stevie should have traded DBoss and gone full tank for 3 years instead of just one year.

Which would be completely irrelevant to the plan. The goal is not to simply get into the playoffs. That's Leafs thinking right there...

If there's no pathway to the Cup then I'd rather see the playoffs sooner than later. And as I said above, if the plan was to wait until 2029 to compete then DBoss should have been traded.

 

[odin1981]

This thread leaves me wondering who has hurt the Wings the most over the last 25 years:

1) Holland
2) Babcock
3) Yzerman
4) Gozer the Gozerian

I would say 95% of the blame would be some ratio of both 1 and 2. Potentially 5% on Steve for choosing not to tank for Bedard's year.

 

[norrisnick]

If there's no pathway to the Cup then I'd rather see the playoffs sooner than later. And as I said above, if the plan was to wait until 2029 to compete then DBoss should have been traded.

There's a year or two between 2023 and 2029.

Also it's all sorts of baffling to be handwringing about the 1C status of Larkin and/or Danielson in a few years while championing the acquisition of Bo F'n Horvat...

 

[Snuggs]

"In return, Vancouver received NHLer Anthony Beauvillier, 20-year-old prospect Aatu Raty and a top-12 protected 2023 first-round pick. They will also retain 25 per cent of Horvat's remaining cap hit."

**

You add that 8 million in cap, and don't have then Compher and Kane as 2023 UFA additions.

And also lose in a trade another 2023 1st rounder (Sandin Pellikka) + roster player with a level of Beauviller (Berggren) and a 2nd round drafted prospect like Räty (Wallinder/Buium).

So it's:

Horvat <> Compher + Kane + Sandin Pellikka + Berggren + Wallinder/Buium.

Quite a price for a playoff spot.

Think Stevie did just fine, by not going after Horvat. Not losing any assets, and getting free assets in Compher and Kane. Improved the team and did not lose the future.

Maybe Compher for sure, idk about Kane or any other UFA/moves made that year.

Compher definitely wouldn't of been signed though if Horvat was traded for cause 2nd line center would have been taken care of, but I could rattle off Justin Holl/Daniel Sprong/Compher and I think the team would have been better with just Horvat.

 

[Snuggs]

This thread leaves me wondering who has hurt the Wings the most over the last 25 years:

1) Holland
2) Babcock
3) Yzerman
4) Gozer the Gozerian

I'd say that weird transition time between new ownership, new arena, the end of the Holland era.

I never blamed Ken Holland/Red Wings for extending the playoff streak attempting to win with Datsyuk on the roster. Mistakes were made though, especially at the very end, you have to pay players to win, paying the wrong players is the mistake many, many teams/GM/etc make and it's what did the Red Wings in more-so than bad drafting. (Imo). Paying guys like Abdelkader,Ericsson,Howard,DeKeyser,Daley,Weiss,Green,Clearly,Franzen big money long-term and whiffing hurts.

Those last two Holland years were extremely tough, as was the first Yzerman year but ATLEAST we all knew we have had turned the page as fans/organization.