Your biggest "Blew it" player predictions.

[Devils Dominion]

He played from '84-'01 in the NHL and scored ~700 points in ~1,000 games. I'm not sure you can really call that a "bust."

Greg Adams had a very good career with Vancouver. He played in the Finals in 1994.
Many will say they won the trade with us for Sundstrom as Patrik only had a good playoff run in '88 and not much more.

 

[JimEIV]

Greg Adams had a very good career with Vancouver. He played in the Finals in 1994.
Many will say they won the trade with us for Sundstrom as Patrik only had a good playoff run in '88 and not much more.

Poor Sundstrom...injuries shortened his NHL career. He was awesome..

 

[TaiMaiShu]

You're right that I didn't spend a year thinking about it - but I think the names I listed are mostly reasonable. I didn't go by just points or there would be another 20+ names up there that outscored Greene.

He's a decent d-man but I would never use the word exceptional when talking about him. I thought a 4 on most teams. Looks like by my listing he'd be a 3 on most teams as Jim suggests.

Edit: Of the names I rattled off - Who would you expect to trade straight up for Greene?

I'm stuck waiting for a core dump at work, so that's why I'm here. Here's where I put him on all teams:
Anaheim: 2 behind Beauchamin or maybe 3.
Boston: 4 behind Chara, Seidenberg, Boychuk
Buffalo: 3 behind Ehrhoff and Myers
Calgary: 2 behind Wideman
Carolina: 3 behind Gleason and Pitkannen, who is fading
Chicago: 4 or 5 behind Seabrook, Keith, Oduya, - a case could be made for Rozival or Leddy who is going to be good.
Colorado: 1. Erik Johnson is a stiff.
Columbus: 3 maybe 2. Jack Johnson. Wisniewski is tough to play against. Tyutin is good.
Dallas: 2 behind underrated Robidas - maybe Goligoski too.
Detroit: 2 behind Kronwall
Edmonton: 3 - I'd rather have Ference, JSchultz
Florida: 3 Campbell, Gumbrandson. Weaver is underrated too.
LA: 5 Doughty, Greene, Regehr, Voynov
Minn: 2 Suter
Habs: 4 Subban, Gorges, Markov
Preds: 2 Weber
Isles: 2 I'd rather have Hamonic or Visnasty.
Rags: 4 Staal, McDonough, Girardi
Ott: 4 Karlsson, Methot, Wiercioch. Maybe even Phillips
Flyers: 3 or 4 Streit (arguably) Timonen, Schenn
Yotes: 3 or 4 Yandle, Ek-Larsson . Can't figure Morris from year to year.
Pens: 4 Martin, Letang, Orpik. sorry, Greene isn't more of a force than any of them.
San Jose: 2 maybe 3. Boyle... then? Vlasic?
St Louis: 4 or 5 Boo, Pieterangelo, Shattenkirk. I like Jackman and Leopold's game, but they wouldn't play ahead of Greene.
Tampa: 3, maybe 4 Hedman, Carle. Brewer is ok. Salo is over the hill.
Toronto: 4? Phaneuf, Franson, Gunnarson. Gardiner? Liles?
Vancouver: 4 or 5? Bieksa, Garrison, Edler, Hamhuis
Washington: 2 after Green
Winnipeg: 4 after Byfuglien, Bogosian, Enstrom

Let's be real. Both of us don't watch these guys enough to give good judgement but you lost me at calling E Johnson a stiff while throwing most of those names at the bottom of the this list. Trade value is impossible so I wouldn't even go there because of age, experience, contract, etc. So these guys I bolded are what I think are on his level today. For the year, Carlson was counted on much more than Green and Tanev had a break out year for the Nucks while the rest had down years.


You threw the guy under the bus, no you didn't call him a number four. You stated he was a number 5, which basically s a 15 minute defenseman on any team. Ludacris. I used the word exceptional in the context of his value, not his skill. Yes, he doesn't wow you in any aspect of his game but you seem to be hung up on. His play last year and in the playoffs in 12 was just solid. He is a guy you don't really ever have to worry about and is the anchor of any pairing he's on. I don't like using numbers but I still don't see how he doesn't scream "ideal" second pairing defenseman.

 

[JimEIV]

anyway, the player I was most wrong about was Vanek. While he was a Gopher I compared him to Oleg Kevasha. I thought he was lazy, took shifts off and didn't utilize his size or skill appropriately.... I still think some of that is true, but I had no idea he could be a prolific scorer in the NHL. For the 2003 draft class I had him and Jessiman as two top 10 bust. Oh well, I got Jessiman right, I compared him to Joe Hulbig at the time, Hulbig was better but they were similar players and careers

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Jason Garrison is a better DMan than Andy Greene because he is paid more? am I reading this right?

 

[AfroThunder396]

So Zajac is better than Jon Tavares? I mean, he does make more money.

 

[JerryGigantic]

He played from '84-'01 in the NHL and scored ~700 points in ~1,000 games. I'm not sure you can really call that a "bust."

Holy Schnikees, did not realize he had that long and productive career. I just remember him blowing my doors off at first.

But happily will eat some crow on that.

Back to Andy Greene...

 

[BenedictGomez]

Greg Adams had a very good career with Vancouver. He played in the Finals in 1994.
Many will say they won the trade with us for Sundstrom as Patrik only had a good playoff run in '88 and not much more.

Wouldnt most people? I hated watching that guy's career flourish thinking he could be in NJ. Had something like 9 or 10 years of 20 goal seasons after leaving.

Steve Sullivan was another trade gone wrong, he must have had close to ten 20 goal seasons after leaving.

 

[Hockey Sports Fan]

Everyone thinks Garrison is an offensive defenseman but it's simply not true. He's an extremely reliable two-way guy who can play tough minutes and come out ahead. His shot is just a bonus. He was the best Canucks defenseman last year. I'd take him over Greene in a heartbeat, but I'd much rather have both.

Putting guys like Weaver and Regehr and Phillips above Greene is pure lunacy. Regehr is probably one of the worst defensemen in the league right now making over 1 million dollars a year.

 

[Hockey Sports Fan]

Anyways, boy was I wrong about Oduya and Martin. I thought they'd be our next wave of envied D. Not to the level of any HoFers or anything like that, but definite top-pairing guys.

Also thought Clarkson was a for-sure lifer who'd give us secondary/tertiary scoring and some muscle for ~4m. Look how that turned out.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Also thought Clarkson was a for-sure lifer who'd give us secondary/tertiary scoring and some muscle for ~4m.

I was sure Clarkson would be gone soon, and I was right, but I was wrong about the "how" he's leave. I had always assumed savvy Lou would trade that inflated asset for something.

 

[JimEIV]

Wouldnt most people? I hated watching that guy's career flourish thinking he could be in NJ. Had something like 9 or 10 years of 20 goal seasons after leaving.

Steve Sullivan was another trade gone wrong, he must have had close to ten 20 goal seasons after leaving.

And the worst part wasn't even Sullivan, it was losing a young Jason Smith who at the time of the trade was already displaying rock steady defense. That was the worst part for me.

 

[Mustangs]

I can t believe that I looled through 9 pages of people losing there minds on "who'ss better".

I have been off on a few players. I really wanted foster to make it. I still remember watching the 2001 draft and watching bob mackenzie go who. Bergfors is another, man I thought there was something there. Right now I want gelinas to be the next make it guy. For whatever reason I see big things.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Jason Garrison is a better DMan than Andy Greene because he is paid more? am I reading this right?

who wrote that?

 

[billingtons ghost]

Let's be real. Both of us don't watch these guys enough to give good judgement but you lost me at calling E Johnson a stiff while throwing most of those names at the bottom of the this list. Trade value is impossible so I wouldn't even go there because of age, experience, contract, etc. So these guys I bolded are what I think are on his level today. For the year, Carlson was counted on much more than Green and Tanev had a break out year for the Nucks while the rest had down years.


You threw the guy under the bus, no you didn't call him a number four. You stated he was a number 5, which basically s a 15 minute defenseman on any team. Ludacris. I used the word exceptional in the context of his value, not his skill. Yes, he doesn't wow you in any aspect of his game but you seem to be hung up on. His play last year and in the playoffs in 12 was just solid. He is a guy you don't really ever have to worry about and is the anchor of any pairing he's on. I don't like using numbers but I still don't see how he doesn't scream "ideal" second pairing defenseman.

No, I believe someone else said he was a 5/6 healthy scratch. I said '4 or lower' on about 7 to 12 teams in the league. By what I listed above he's a 3 on most teams but a 4 or lower on between 7 to 12 teams. And it's not about who is better, it is who would get the start. I see where you think guys like Bieksa aren't 'better' than Greene. In many facets you are right - but no way does Andy Greene start ahead of Bieksa, or about most of the other guys you bolded.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

who wrote that?

why our own resident financial expert, BenedictGomez of course

 

[Zelmo]

And the worst part wasn't even Sullivan, it was losing a young Jason Smith who at the time of the trade was already displaying rock steady defense. That was the worst part for me.

THIS x1000! As much as I loved Sully (I'm an admitted Sullivan Fanboy), I thought Smith was going to be a young Kenny D with much more offense. To this day, it's still the trade that angers me the most.

 

[B A T M A N]

I was ecstatic about signing Mogilny in 2005-06, and Rolston.

I also had a personal obsession with Tverdovsky in 03. And cheered for the Canes to win the cup in 06 because he was on their team.

 

[NJDevs26]

I never got why Devil fans hated that trade so much aside from the obtuse bottom-line logic that we didn't win. It's the cost of doing business and we had Gilmour for a year and a half, not twenty games. Plus Sullivan never did anything for Toronto and we had a lot of smaller, talented forwards in the system at the time. You gotta give up something to get a future HOF'er, and I still think the first season's a bit different if Gilmour doesn't get hit with a puck in the eye late in the season.

 

[JimEIV]

I never got why Devil fans hated that trade so much aside from the obtuse bottom-line logic that we didn't win. It's the cost of doing business and we had Gilmour for a year and a half, not twenty games. Plus Sullivan never did anything for Toronto and we had a lot of smaller, talented forwards in the system at the time. You gotta give up something to get a future HOF'er, and I still think the first season's a bit different if Gilmour doesn't get hit with a puck in the eye late in the season.

To keep it short, Gilmour was a punk..

Messier cross checked him in the face in the playoffs and he disappeared and we got rolled. He was a waste of assets. I hate that guy and every time Don Cherry calls him "Killer" I laugh my ass off and remember how he became quiet as a church mouse after Messier.

 

[Beastdog75]

I thought Josef Boumedienne would amount to something. I remember Lou protecting him in either a waiver or expansion draft ahead of some of our regulars before he even played an NHL game. I thought the Devils had a hidden gem waiting to be unearthed.

He played 1 game in a Devils uniform and scored a goal in that game. I was beside myself with anger because it was televised on that evil Metro channel which I didn't get (and it was the first game of 01-02 too!). I was denied seeing him play in a Devils uniform because shortly after he was packaged with Sascha Goc and sent to Tampa Bay for Andrei Zyuzin. He played a few games for the Lightning and Capitals before going back to Europe, playing a grand total of 47 games in the NHL. I was pretty much upset over nothing.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I believe someone else said he was a 5/6 healthy scratch. I said '4 or lower' on about 7 to 12 teams in the league.

Not much different from what I said. I said Andy Greene isnt the "building-block" you create an NHL team around (I seriously cant believe I have to actually type that), and I figured he'd be a 5/6 on maybe 9 or 10 teams or so (yes, including the Rangers).

 

[billingtons ghost]

To keep it short, Gilmour was a punk..

Messier cross checked him in the face in the playoffs and he disappeared and we got rolled. He was a waste of assets. I hate that guy and every time Don Cherry calls him "Killer" I laugh my ass off and remember how he became quiet as a church mouse after Messier.

Could not have put it better myself. He got completely out cheap-shotted by Messier and we crumbled after that.

One of the 'intangibles' that Gilmour was supposed to be carting with him was that 'big game' Killer mentality, and after that cross check to the face by the walking *****, we were toast.

Edit: and whoever said Jason Smith was the biggest loss was right. I know you've 'got to give to get' - but Gilmour was at the end of his career. If it was Sullivan + McCauley I would've been happy, because there was no way you could project Sullivan would turn out as he did. He looked like an undersized flash in the pan; not Theo Fleury. Jason Smith looked like Fayne with leadership qualities and a lot of ruggedness at the time. Arguably, he would've been more help to us during that Rags series (by taking a run as Messier and getting a 5 minute penalty) than Gilmour was...

 

[Tretyak 20]

I never said he wasnt. That's NOT what this argument is. Greene has turned into a legitimate NHL defenseman, no argument.

1) The statement was that he could be your "building block" to create your team around. That's absolute ridiculousness.

2) The second disagreement was when I said he'd be no better than a #5-#6 on numerous NHL teams, which people also disagreed with.

Yikes! I kinda feel bad for starting this thread and then not clarifying it for a couple of days!

Ok, as far as my "Building block" analogy, let me exposit a little. Blocks are something rather egalitarian and unspectacular, but if you have a number of quality ones you can cement them together and build something useful. Note that I never called Greene a "foundational" or "franchise" player - that would be a Stevens, Niedermayer, etc. That's a guy who plays 27 minutes a night and who you build your whole team on.

Greene is an egalitarian, unspectacular defenseman. But he's a defenseman that never makes me cringe just to see him jump off the bench. Even against guys like Malkin and Crosby, he can usually hold his own and not get embarrased (most of the time). He's a legit top-4 D on most NHL teams, even if he never makes a highlight real. The fact that he's effectively our top D right now does speak to the nature of our blueline - we defend by committee. That's ok, teams can do that and still make the playoffs. Not everybody has a Stevens, Niedermayer, Lidstrom, Leech, Pronger, etc. IMHO anyone who thinks a team has to have a player like that to compete is just star-struck. Teams can win - even win cups - without a future HoF'er... this isn't basketball.

So in summation - Greene = building block. Building block = need several you can rely on to build something greater than the sum of the parts. Something greater than the sum of the parts = a competetive team that might just go someplace.

...and in summation of previously said summation, Greene + Larsson + Fayne divided by Salvador - the square root of Kovalchuk + Clowe divided by Clarkson + 2/3 Jagr times the average of Zajac, Elias and Ryder = oh, hell, I don't know what. Guess we'll find out starting in October.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Ok, as far as my "Building block" analogy, let me exposit a little..... I never called Greene a "foundational" or "franchise" player

Gotcha, I took the term literally as in the way most people commonly use it.

Greene is an egalitarian, unspectacular defenseman... But he's a defenseman that never makes me cringe just to see him jump off the bench..... The fact that he's effectively our top D right now does speak to the nature of our blueline - we defend by committee.

Pretty much agree with all the above too.

But I also think it speaks to the fact the Devils desperately need to improve on D. Meaning, I WANT the Devils to BE one of the teams where Andy Greene would be something like at least a #4. Hopefully a few of Larsson, Gelinas, Merrill, Urbom, SOMEONE, will take a spectacular leap forward in development and fill the gap.