Yeah Sullivan Sucks, but Dubas needs to be talked about too...

[Buddy Bizarre]

I find this thread very interesting.

As the outgoing GM of the Leafs, Dubas tried to make a power play for more power, making it a requirement that for him to sign a contract extension in Toronto, he all but demanded he would have to have more power and autonomy. According to multiple reports, Dubas wanted to effectively eliminate Shanahan’s role in roster decisions and he wanted to be able to report directly to the MLSE board of directors bypassing Shanahan completely.

Those untenable contract demands, largely led to the end of Dubas’ tenure in Toronto.

Upon his exit, Dubas, sites a lack of autonomy and Shanahan’s meddling as being the major source of his lack of success as GM of the Leafs. He gets that message out, by quietly leaking it to his media buddies all while keeping his own hands clean.

So Dubas heads to Pittsburgh to assume the presidents role, reportedly gaining him the autonomy he lacked in Toronto.

Fast forward to today and now Dubas is president of the Pens and people speculate that he can’t; fire the coach, can’t initiate a rebuild and can’t trade some players . So magically once again, Dubas’ struggles are blamed as being the fault of something else, other than himself of course.

If the speculation here is accurate, Dubas has less autonomy than he had in Toronto. And if that’s actually the case, it’s his own fault snd nobody else's.

You make logical points and can't disagree with much.

Perhaps there were conversations about Sullivan between Dubas and FSG that aren't in the public eye.

Something like: "you'll have full authority once Sid/Geno/Letang are gone. Until that time, Sullivan will remain as coach"

Lot's of conjecture (why we're on a message board). But that's the only way it makes sense to me at this moment.

 

[spcastlemagic]

I agree with that - I don’t think Dubas’ mandate is to put together a winning team as fast as possible, and I don’t think he has the authority to fire or trade certain very substantial parts of the org. So it’s hard for me to judge exactly how good of a General Manager he is when he’s more of a Specific Forms of Approved Tweaking Manager instead.

For me this is borderline a Pirates situation - ownership isn’t particularly interested in what happens in the standings, as long as their product does what they want on the balance sheet. I think it’s not quite a Pirates situation because I’m convinced Nutting thinks winning is actually bad and undesirable, but it’s not far off!

 

[eXile3]

I agree with that - I don’t think Dubas’ mandate is to put together a winning team as fast as possible, and I don’t think he has the authority to fire or trade certain very substantial parts of the org. So it’s hard for me to judge exactly how good of a General Manager he is when he’s more of a Specific Forms of Approved Tweaking Manager instead.

For me this is borderline a Pirates situation - ownership isn’t particularly interested in what happens in the standings, as long as their product does what they want on the balance sheet. I think it’s not quite a Pirates situation because I’m convinced Nutting thinks winning is actually bad and undesirable, but it’s not far off!

Baseball is vastly different than the NHL. The majority of revenue comes from TV deals, the NHL its the gate.

If people continue to not go to games, last night looked like there were a quite a few empty seats, they’ll notice it.

I honestly could see it turning into Gen X. Still a hardcore following, 14,000 people a game… I think FSG will see that as serious and they aren’t as hands off as people think.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Dubas had a frontrow seat to see that Bunting’s numbers were inflated by playing with Matthews and Marner and he still took the bait.

 

[akapidots]

Hard to evaluate the on-ice impact of his job when he can't fire the damn coach

 

[Gurglesons]

I agree with that - I don’t think Dubas’ mandate is to put together a winning team as fast as possible, and I don’t think he has the authority to fire or trade certain very substantial parts of the org. So it’s hard for me to judge exactly how good of a General Manager he is when he’s more of a Specific Forms of Approved Tweaking Manager instead.

For me this is borderline a Pirates situation - ownership isn’t particularly interested in what happens in the standings, as long as their product does what they want on the balance sheet. I think it’s not quite a Pirates situation because I’m convinced Nutting thinks winning is actually bad and undesirable, but it’s not far off!

FSG is here to make money. If the Penguins are not getting attendance. They aren't making money.

The only other opportunity that was largely paraded around was the financial real estate around the arena which from my understanding little has happened with.

Wouldn't be surprised if the team gets sold soon tbh.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

FSG is here to make money. If the Penguins are not getting attendance. They aren't making money.

The only other opportunity that was largely paraded around was the financial real estate around the arena which from my understanding little has happened with.

Wouldn't be surprised if the team gets sold soon tbh.

If Mark Cuban buys the Pens, I'll personally plan his welcoming parade

 

[TKalltheTime]

FSG is here to make money. If the Penguins are not getting attendance. They aren't making money.

The only other opportunity that was largely paraded around was the financial real estate around the arena which from my understanding little has happened with.

Wouldn't be surprised if the team gets sold soon tbh.

This is a city full of idiots who still give money to the Pirates & Bob Nutting… the majority of the people there are suckers who fall for the ole feel good marketing bullshit IE buying stupid f***ing MAF “commemorative t shirts” in his “last game in Pittsburgh” when he hadn’t been a Penguin for almost a f***ing decade.

They will continue to exploit the marks and pull in boat loads of money even with an embarrassing on ice produce… look at the past 6-7 years of this franchise.

 

[Zbynek]

Net positive moves:
Eller
Ned

Net neutral moves:
McGroarty
Puljujarvi
Glass*
Lizotte*
Hayes*

Net negative moves:
Karlsson
Jarry
Graves
Smith
Nieto
Acciari
Harkins
Guentzel/Bunting
Grzelcyk
Beauvillier
Quinn

All of the asterisk marked players could easily go net negative given the cap implications, but I decided to be generous and label them as neutral for now.

You can blame some of this on Sully but ultimately these are Dubas' moves and pretty much all of them stink.

Notably, his biggest spendings have also been his biggest stinkers.

 

[Gurglesons]

This is a city full of idiots who still give money to the Pirates & Bob Nutting… the majority of the people there are suckers who fall for the ole feel good marketing bullshit IE buying stupid f***ing MAF “commemorative t shirts” in his “last game in Pittsburgh” when he hadn’t been a Penguin for almost a f***ing decade.

They will continue to exploit the marks and pull in boat loads of money even with an embarrassing on ice produce… look at the past 6-7 years of this franchise.

Pirate's attendance is bottom of the league.

Penguins revenue is largely driven by attendance.

Considering we are spending an extra 5-8 mil a year on our GM and coach compared to most teams, I bet you see us being under the cap as soon as next year.

 

[Sike Mullivan]

I bet you see us being under the cap as soon as next year.

Honestly how it should be, unless its due to moves like Glass/Hayes. I dont want this team to be the 2018 Red Wings. Not close to being competitive, no cap space, and barely any prospects or draft capital.

 

[Gurglesons]

Honestly how it should be, unless its due to moves like Glass/Hayes. I dont want this team to be the 2018 Red Wings. Not close to being competitive, no cap space, and barely any prospects or draft capital.

If ownership is unwilling to spend to the cap it makes us taking on bad deals as a value piece very difficult.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I can't imagine much worse that owning downtown property in any medium sized city these days

FSG should have MANY regrets right now

PIT is too small for tourism, too big to survive without office workers back in office

 

[Sike Mullivan]

If ownership is unwilling to spend to the cap it makes us taking on bad deals as a value piece very difficult.

Just going off trade bait and expiring contracts:

Petts, Gryz, Eller, Glass, Pulju and Beau out for 13.7m with up to an extra 4.5 if they move Ned and Acciari.

Pickering, Aho, Poulin, Pono, Koiv, McG, Blom in for 5.8m.

Repeat in 2026 when Hayes and Bunting come off the books. Unless KD does something stupid, thats alot of space to weaponize while still not being a cap team.

 

[eXile3]

I can't imagine much worse that owning downtown property in any medium sized city these days

FSG should have MANY regrets right now

PIT is too small for tourism, too big to survive without office workers back in office

I believe you mean PGH.

I mean they bought during Covid. If they didn’t have the foresight regarding the roster and overall investment that’s on him. It doesn’t take a genius to see what’s happening in either case.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I believe you mean PGH.

I mean they bought during Covid. If they didn’t have the foresight regarding the roster and overall investment that’s on him. It doesn’t take a genius to see what’s happening in either case.

Naw, I don't fault them for buying during Covid, from what I can see, real estate for sure, expected to bounce back after

Now a few years on, it's becoming clear it's not going to bounce back the same way it was before

Downtowns were not on such a bad path 2016+

 

[TKalltheTime]

Hard to evaluate the on-ice impact of his job when he can't fire the damn coach

No it isn’t… even if this is true (it’s all speculation on your & many others parts) he is still the guy signing bad contracts and constructing this roster. You act like he’s completely blameless because of this one supposed thing.

 

[Khelandros]

Just going off trade bait and expiring contracts:

Petts, Gryz, Eller, Glass, Pulju and Beau out for 13.7m with up to an extra 4.5 if they move Ned and Acciari.

Pickering, Aho, Poulin, Pono, Koiv, McG, Blom in for 5.8m.

Repeat in 2026 when Hayes and Bunting come off the books. Unless KD does something stupid, thats alot of space to weaponize while still not being a cap team.

There is only one problem with this scenario,

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Baseball is vastly different than the NHL. The majority of revenue comes from TV deals, the NHL its the gate.

If people continue to not go to games, last night looked like there were a quite a few empty seats, they’ll notice it.

I honestly could see it turning into Gen X. Still a hardcore following, 14,000 people a game… I think FSG will see that as serious and they aren’t as hands off as people think.

They are clearly not hands off...they have the bench boss running this show.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

No it isn’t… even if this is true (it’s all speculation on your & many others parts) he is still the guy signing bad contracts and constructing this roster. You act like he’s completely blameless because of this one supposed thing.

If Dubas is responsible for this roster, and Sullivan has zero say in it, then Kyle Dubas is the worst GM in the history of hockey.

What GM with power would trade its top prospect for someone else's top prospect only because of NHL readiness, and then send down said prospect after three games? Probably the same "GM" (nudge nudge, wink wink) who put a player in the press box after starting the season with five points in six games despite averaging precious little time.

In Toronto, Dubas lost the power battle above him. Here, he is being undercut from "below" him.

 

[eXile3]

If Dubas is responsible for this roster, and Sullivan has zero say in it, then Kyle Dubas is the worst GM in the history of hockey.

What GM with power would trade its top prospect for someone else's top prospect only because of NHL readiness, and then send down said prospect after three games? Probably the same "GM" (nudge nudge, wink wink) who put a player in the press box after starting the season with five points in six games despite averaging precious little time.

In Toronto, Dubas lost the power battle above him. Here, he is being undercut from "below" him.

I don’t remember him saying that’s why he traded for him. He was just the better, higher ranked prospect and a year older.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I don’t remember him saying that’s why he traded for him. He was just the better, higher ranked prospect and a year older.

We would not have traded Yager if he were the same age as McGroarty. If Winnipeg would have made that offer had McGroarty been a year younger, we would have passed. This whole idea was to accelerate the rebuild.

Also, forget about higher ranked according to this consensus or that one. Who cares? If one guy is ranked 15-20 and the other guy is ranked 35-40, does it mean all 20 guys in the first group are going to pan out better than the guys listed in the second group? Of course not. Prospect rankings are about as useful as toilet paper. Use them when you see them, then flush. As someone who does prospect rankings, I feel I have a right to say that.

I was hoping Yager would get nine games this year (with us, before the trade), so I was pissed when he was traded. But, I went along because at least McGroarty was a much better bet to play under Sullivan. So it is beyond frustrating to see what has transpired, and doubly frustrating when we know that there is nothing we can do to stop this. Sullivan runs the show. We just have to sit, watch and like it.

Also, if the plan all along was to move Malkin to Crosby's LW before they retire, then it was an even dumber move to trade Yager. But I digress.

 

[eXile3]

We would not have traded Yager if he were the same age as McGroarty. If Winnipeg would have made that offer had McGroarty been a year younger, we would have passed. This whole idea was to accelerate the rebuild.

Also, forget about higher ranked according to this consensus or that one. Who cares? If one guy is ranked 15-20 and the other guy is ranked 35-40, does it mean all 20 guys in the first group are going to pan out better than the guys listed in the second group? Of course not. Prospect rankings are about as useful as toilet paper. Use them when you see them, then flush. As someone who does prospect rankings, I feel I have a right to say that.

I was hoping Yager would get nine games this year (with us, before the trade), so I was pissed when he was traded. But, I went along because at least McGroarty was a much better bet to play under Sullivan. So it is beyond frustrating to see what has transpired, and doubly frustrating when we know that there is nothing we can do to stop this. Sullivan runs the show. We just have to sit, watch and like it.

Also, if the plan all along was to move Malkin to Crosby's LW before they retire, then it was an even dumber move to trade Yager. But I digress.

It’s true to say that no one really knows how any of these players will turn out. Consensus and other rankings are just another way to assess value on an uncertain asset. In that sense, the Pens got the better prospect.

There is plenty of hate to pile on Dubas but that trade made sense to me given the information at the time which was he got the better prospect.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

It amazes me people are still trying to defend Dubas. Our roster is pathetic. We have one injury and suddenly Hayes is a 2C, for example.

Sullivan sucks but Dubas has been awful too.

Blame ownership, not Dubas