Yeah Sullivan Sucks, but Dubas needs to be talked about too...

Sike Mullivan

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Nov 15, 2010
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Yup. They couldn't find a buyer at like 700 mil with 400mil of real estate.. Then sold for better part of a billion after accidentally winning two Cups lol

Worked out great for Mario and Co
Especially because most of, if not all of his stake was money that was owed to him by the team. I think the number he was owed was around 36 million? He turned that into nearly 350 million with the sale.
 
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Dennis Reynolds

I have to have my tools!
Jun 10, 2011
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Dubas is one of 3 GMs responsible for the current state of this team. Even with all of the GMs combined, Sullivan is still to blame more for their current state.
Yeah, the clear common denominator with those three has been an inept coach.

Sure, fire Dubas, I don't care. He hasn't been good.

Sullivan has still been worse.
 

Pancakes

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I don't think Dubas has been great but it's also hard to evaluate his moves when Sullivan remains.

Take Graves for example. He sucks but he was good elsewhere. Maybe he rebounds into a decent player if a new coach with a sensible system comes in.

Perhaps Dubas deserves blame for failing to bring in players that work with Sullivan's system but do those players even exist anymore? Most everyone that gets brought to this team struggles now.
 

BobCole

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May 21, 2014
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I think Dubas walked into a tough situation here. His mandate was to make the team competitive, and there was no reason to believe that after missing the playoffs by one point (after upteen consecutive years of qualifying) that he couldn't accomplish the task.

In his first offseason, his biggest mistake in hindsight was signing Jarry to a long-term, high dollar-value extension. With that said, the goalie market was thin, and locking up Jarry made some sense. He definitely could have signed him to a more reasonable length/term, however.

Another massive blunder that offseason was the Graves signing. It was another move that wasn't altogether awful on paper, but likewise, the length/term of the contract was simply unnecessary. Although these signings are in a different category than Dubas' signings in TO, there's nonetheless a similar pattern of shelling out too much term at too high a dollar value.

Finally, the Karlsson trade was another that is not as bad on paper as many (particularly non-Pens fans) believe. It was a masterclass in shipping out trash for treasure. I'm still gobsmacked that he was able to do it. However, not entirely dissimilar to the Tavares signing in TO, he made a move for the biggest prize on the market irrespective of the team's actual needs.

He made other moves with mixed results, none of which are particularly noteworthy. The Smith deal was good on paper, and kudos to Dubas for moving on from it quickly and seamlessly. There were some wins, too, most notably Eller.

On balance, I would characterize his first offseason here as a "failure," but not one borne of outright incompetence or ineptitude. He gave the coach a better roster than he had the previous year, and the coach got considerably worse results from it. For however bad Dubas' first offseason was, I place far more blame on the coaching staff.

In-season, I grade his Gunetzel trade better than most. He acquired some decent prospects and a good roster player. Inasmuch as we all would have loved a king's ransom for Jake (he was the best player available at the TDL), the reality is there were only so many dance partners available, Jake was closer to 30 than 25, and the return was decent.

This offseason, it's clear that Dubas - and presumably the org and ownership writ large - were more clear-eyed about the fact that the team is in need of a "rebuild," for lack of a better term. To that end, I believe all of his FA signings were prudent. He bolstered the team to the degree that he could without acquiring long-term anchor contracts. He took on some other teams' trash in exchange for picks, and frankly many of his acquisitions have bolstered our forward depth, something that has plagued this team for a long, long time.

The team is now in free fall, and I think Dubas' tenure here plays a pretty small part in that. The major flaws that sealed this team's fate were done over the course of years by JR and Hextall. And, far more importantly, this team's coaching has been an issue dating back at least 3-4 years, and arguably longer.

So, I'm no Dubas fanboy. Heck, I wouldn't even say he's been "good" here. But when I dissect the state of this team, Dubas is relatively low on my list of targets for ridicule. This team's demise was inevitable. It was accelerated by poor management before Dubas' arrival, and while Dubas has played a part in it, he certainly hasn't been the architect. His tenure here reminds me of a common occurrence in Silicon Valley where (oddly enough) female execs are tapped to steer a ship that's already sinking.
 

Headshot77

We saw him heading straight for the mountains
Feb 15, 2015
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Dubas was always hired to steer this team through the post-Crosby rebuild. Him catching the falling knife that was this team's trajectory isn't really his fault. I'll judge Dubas' performance in 2030ish because that's when his work actually begins IMO.

We were always destined to suck ass. Same reason I'm not upset Sullivan is still here. We are fully, 100% cooked. Time to tank.
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
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Dubas' biggest mistake was not immediately starting a rebuild and instead trying to maintain being competitive by giving out big UFA deals to Jarry, Graves and Acciari (to a lesser extent) and trading for Karlsson and Smith. That said, we have no clue what mandate he was given from ownership and whether they would have okay'd a rebuild immediately upon starting.

The Penguins collapsed hard in the 2022-2023 season, but remember they were their standard self up until the second half of that season. The Penguins were 9th in the NHL in point% on January 1st and were on track to finish the year with 100 points. They were on track to be 2nd or 3rd in the Metro and be in the same position they had been in for years. In hindsight, it is factually the correct decision that they should have just torn it down and rebuilt them. But at the time, I don't think it was clear the Penguins were as spent as they were in the second half of the 2022-2023 season.

What happened is that the second half 2022-2023 Penguins were the new Penguins, and the only way you could have known that was being able to tell the future. I think an interesting discussion that hasn't happened as much as it should is "why did the Penguins fall off in 2023?", because it was abrupt and pretty out of nowhere.
 

Buddy Bizarre

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Jul 9, 2021
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Imagine taking the job as the captain of the Titanic and then getting blamed for the ensuing results.

Well that's not really an apt analogy. The Titanic didn't sink bc of poor build quality. It sunk bc the idiot captain wanted to beat their original ETA and basically said "full speed ahead" despite the warnings about icebergs.

Better analogy would be blaming the driver for his Ford Pinto going up in flames after a fender bender.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
36,187
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You guys make good points for Dubas. But to me it comes down to this... we all agree that Mike Sullivan is and has been a huge issue.

Kyle Dubas is the GM.

If he "can't" do it then what real use is he?

That's a huge, huge problem... having a lame duck GM. Especially in a rebuild. If he CAN but actually likes Mike Sullivan and thinks he's doing a terrific job and nobody else could do better than that's even worse because it just means he's an idiot.
 

Headshot77

We saw him heading straight for the mountains
Feb 15, 2015
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You guys make good points for Dubas. But to me it comes down to this... we all agree that Mike Sullivan is and has been a huge issue.

Kyle Dubas is the GM.

If he "can't" do it then what real use is he?

That's a huge, huge problem... having a lame duck GM. Especially in a rebuild.
I don't think Dubas is a Lame Duck GM per se. Reading the tea leaves it's clear FSG had "their guy" in Sullivan, and he was signed to an extension before they even let the ink dry on the deed to the franchise. I get the impression Dubas has carte blanche to do anything with the roster he wants EXCEPT trade the big three and fire Sullivan.
 

eXile3

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Dec 12, 2020
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I don't think Dubas has been great but it's also hard to evaluate his moves when Sullivan remains.

Take Graves for example. He sucks but he was good elsewhere. Maybe he rebounds into a decent player if a new coach with a sensible system comes in.

Perhaps Dubas deserves blame for failing to bring in players that work with Sullivan's system but do those players even exist anymore? Most everyone that gets brought to this team struggles now.
Maybe with Colorado but he is every bit the player he was his last year in NJ. I remember watching him in the playoffs and hoping we weren’t dumb enough to sign him.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

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May 31, 2004
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I don't think Dubas is a Lame Duck GM per se. Reading the tea leaves it's clear FSG had "their guy" in Sullivan, and he was signed to an extension before they even let the ink dry on the deed to the franchise. I get the impression Dubas has carte blanche to do anything with the roster he wants EXCEPT trade the big three and fire Sullivan.

Then he's not a good GM for this team.

You guys keep talking about "doing what must be done." Who is gonna do it?
 
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Pancakes

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Maybe with Colorado but he is every bit the player he was his last year in NJ. I remember watching him in the playoffs and hoping we weren’t dumb enough to sign him.
I'll be honest I had the same reaction watching him in that playoffs but I don't think that invalidates my statement. Graves was good for the most part in New Jersey even if he looked rough that playoffs and he was good in Colorado.

It was only when he came here that he became a total disaster. And that sort of pattern has held true for too many players under Sullivan the past few seasons.

So...I dunno. I don't want to completely absolve Dubas of blame with his signings and trades but I feel like Sullivan isn't doing KD any favors by ruining every player that gets brought in lol. Perhaps some of these signings and trades would have been duds regardless, but since the Pens refuse to move on from Sullivan we'll never know.
 

BillyOcean

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Jan 2, 2015
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I think Dubas walked into a tough situation here. His mandate was to make the team competitive, and there was no reason to believe that after missing the playoffs by one point (after upteen consecutive years of qualifying) that he couldn't accomplish the task.

In his first offseason, his biggest mistake in hindsight was signing Jarry to a long-term, high dollar-value extension. With that said, the goalie market was thin, and locking up Jarry made some sense. He definitely could have signed him to a more reasonable length/term, however.

Another massive blunder that offseason was the Graves signing. It was another move that wasn't altogether awful on paper, but likewise, the length/term of the contract was simply unnecessary. Although these signings are in a different category than Dubas' signings in TO, there's nonetheless a similar pattern of shelling out too much term at too high a dollar value.

Finally, the Karlsson trade was another that is not as bad on paper as many (particularly non-Pens fans) believe. It was a masterclass in shipping out trash for treasure. I'm still gobsmacked that he was able to do it. However, not entirely dissimilar to the Tavares signing in TO, he made a move for the biggest prize on the market irrespective of the team's actual needs.

He made other moves with mixed results, none of which are particularly noteworthy. The Smith deal was good on paper, and kudos to Dubas for moving on from it quickly and seamlessly. There were some wins, too, most notably Eller.

On balance, I would characterize his first offseason here as a "failure," but not one borne of outright incompetence or ineptitude. He gave the coach a better roster than he had the previous year, and the coach got considerably worse results from it. For however bad Dubas' first offseason was, I place far more blame on the coaching staff.

In-season, I grade his Gunetzel trade better than most. He acquired some decent prospects and a good roster player. Inasmuch as we all would have loved a king's ransom for Jake (he was the best player available at the TDL), the reality is there were only so many dance partners available, Jake was closer to 30 than 25, and the return was decent.

This offseason, it's clear that Dubas - and presumably the org and ownership writ large - were more clear-eyed about the fact that the team is in need of a "rebuild," for lack of a better term. To that end, I believe all of his FA signings were prudent. He bolstered the team to the degree that he could without acquiring long-term anchor contracts. He took on some other teams' trash in exchange for picks, and frankly many of his acquisitions have bolstered our forward depth, something that has plagued this team for a long, long time.

The team is now in free fall, and I think Dubas' tenure here plays a pretty small part in that. The major flaws that sealed this team's fate were done over the course of years by JR and Hextall. And, far more importantly, this team's coaching has been an issue dating back at least 3-4 years, and arguably longer.

So, I'm no Dubas fanboy. Heck, I wouldn't even say he's been "good" here. But when I dissect the state of this team, Dubas is relatively low on my list of targets for ridicule. This team's demise was inevitable. It was accelerated by poor management before Dubas' arrival, and while Dubas has played a part in it, he certainly hasn't been the architect. His tenure here reminds me of a common occurrence in Silicon Valley where (oddly enough) female execs are tapped to steer a ship that's already sinking.
This post will be buried after a few more pages of nonsense but it's spot on. People have no perspective.
 

Pens x

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Oct 8, 2016
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I see some of our posters still bury their heads in the sand, refusing to criticize Harry Potter.
 

Pancakes

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I see some of our posters still bury their heads in the sand, refusing to criticize Harry Potter.
Harry Potter is pretty good. Not as good as Sleepy Ron Hextall but it's a solid effort.
 

TKalltheTime

KILLER PARTIES, ALMOST KILLED ME!
Jan 5, 2018
2,967
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Los Angeles, CA
I don't think he has been that bad aside from the Jarry and Graves contract. More so the Graves than Jarry imo. His hands were tied a bit regarding Jarry.

The trades have been good in my eyes.
EK trade was good at the time, but haven't worked out. But I still liked the effort of one last run.

Got decent value for Guentzel who didn't wanna stay.

Rest of the trades are the ones rebuilding tends SHOULD do. Take on players for picks. We got 2nd, 3rd, 6th and swaped a 5th for yet another 3rd to take Hayes and Glass.

Hayes had to play 2C for a game? So what? We got paid to take him on and tbh when we stack Sid and Geno on the same line it's Hayes, Eller or Glass as the 2C..

McG for Yager is impossible to judge for a few years.
WTF are you talking about!?
 

Gilmour1996

Registered User
Oct 16, 2022
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Leafs fan here but have a soft spot for the Pens and Steelers my favorite NFL team. It's entirely possible that Pens upper management hired Dubas knowing full well that he would be the absolute worst GM they could possibly find, short of hiring some nobody off the street. Fool enough of the fans and the media to make the strategy appear like a progressive move. Then can him after he's buried the team.
 
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Pancakes

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Leafs fan here but have a soft spot for the Pens and Steelers my favorite NFL team. It's entirely possible that Pens upper management hired Dubas knowing full well that he would be the absolute worst GM they could possibly find, short of hiring some nobody off the street. Fool enough of the fans and the media to make the strategy appear like a progressive move. Then can him after he's buried the team.
Lol no. The Pens did not in fact give Dubas 7 years for him to intentionally f*** up the team for almost a decade.

If they just wanted him to ruin the team and kick off the rebuild and then put someone else in there they'd just have given him 3-4 years.
 

Buddy Bizarre

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Jul 9, 2021
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Leafs fan here but have a soft spot for the Pens and Steelers my favorite NFL team. It's entirely possible that Pens upper management hired Dubas knowing full well that he would be the absolute worst GM they could possibly find, short of hiring some nobody off the street. Fool enough of the fans and the media to make the strategy appear like a progressive move. Then can him after he's buried the team.

I don't think this passes the reasonableness test as Pancakes alluded to.

The answer is the simplest one: FSG thought Dubas did a decent job in Toronto and swooped in once he became available. Remember that Dubas wasn't even on their long list of candidates bc he wasn't even available at that time. Pens had it narrowed down to a couple people and were going through final interviews when Dubas/Shanny split.
 

CaptainCrunch17

Registered User
Dec 31, 2010
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I don't think this passes the reasonableness test as Pancakes alluded to.

The answer is the simplest one: FSG thought Dubas did a decent job in Toronto and swooped in once he became available. Remember that Dubas wasn't even on their long list of candidates bc he wasn't even available at that time. Pens had it narrowed down to a couple people and were going through final interviews when Dubas/Shanny split.
I find this thread very interesting.

As the outgoing GM of the Leafs, Dubas tried to make a power play for more power, making it a requirement that for him to sign a contract extension in Toronto, he all but demanded he would have to have more power and autonomy. According to multiple reports, Dubas wanted to effectively eliminate Shanahan’s role in roster decisions and he wanted to be able to report directly to the MLSE board of directors bypassing Shanahan completely.

Those untenable contract demands, largely led to the end of Dubas’ tenure in Toronto.

Upon his exit, Dubas, sites a lack of autonomy and Shanahan’s meddling as being the major source of his lack of success as GM of the Leafs. He gets that message out, by quietly leaking it to his media buddies all while keeping his own hands clean.

So Dubas heads to Pittsburgh to assume the presidents role, reportedly gaining him the autonomy he lacked in Toronto.

Fast forward to today and now Dubas is president of the Pens and people speculate that he can’t; fire the coach, can’t initiate a rebuild and can’t trade some players . So magically once again, Dubas’ struggles are blamed as being the fault of something else, other than himself of course.

If the speculation here is accurate, Dubas has less autonomy than he had in Toronto. And if that’s actually the case, it’s his own fault snd nobody else's.
 

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