Would you trade Kessel for Patrice Bergeron straight up?

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

No Mess, Boston didn't choose those guys over Kessel. Kessel wanted out. It's been pointed out numerous times before, and Chia stated many times that they wanted Phil in Boston.

Chiarelli: Kessel had zero interest in Bruins

General manager Peter Chiarelli, who estimated that the Phil Kessel trade was finalized at 9:15 p.m. last night, said there were two reasons the deal took place: the forward's desire to leave and Toronto's looming threat of an offer sheet.

"Let me be perfectly clear," Chiarelli said. "This trade is really about two things. One, it's about a player who did not want to play in Boston. Two, it's about the threat or the perceived threat of an offer sheet."

.......

"We want players that want to be here," Chiarelli said. "I know that this player is a good player. Obviously he is. He can skate. He can shoot the puck. But we want players that want to be here. We want to grow the team with these types of players. I know the history here, but this isn't about frugality. There were some significant [contract] offers made. There was little or no attempt to negotiate from the other side, which I think is for a reason, which is the reason I explained earlier."

The Bruins had discussions with Nashville, with prospects Colin Wilson and Ryan Ellis being their two top targets. But in Chiarelli's estimation, the Predators would not have been able to match the five-year, $27 million contract Kessel received from the Leafs. Chiarelli said Kessel would not accept a sign-and-trade, which limited trade partners because most teams besides Toronto didn't have the funds Kessel was hoping for.

 

[Roll 4 Lines]

Kessel is talented, and provided some nice highlight goals for the Bruins, but I'd be very surprised if you found one single Bruins fan who'd make that trade.

 

[Morbo]

Kessel is talented, and provided some nice highlight goals for the Bruins, but I'd be very surprised if you found one single Bruins fan who'd make that trade.

That's great, but really not many teams are going to trade a top-line player for a 2C either.

 

[Mess]

No Mess, Boston didn't choose those guys over Kessel. Kessel wanted out. It's been pointed out numerous times before, and Chia stated many times that they wanted Phil in Boston.

I'm well aware of Kessel forcing his way out of Boston previously..

That also adds more fuel to the logic fire as to why Boston would not make this suggested trade, because Kessel is a UFA after next season, and since he already forced his way off of the Bruins in the past there would be no reason to believe that he wouldn't do again when his current contract expires. Last time he was a RFA and wanted out this time as a UFA the Bruins couldn't stop him from walking away.

Flip it around, would it wise for Toronto to trade for a player they previously traded away and only have him for a 1 year or so thereafter before risking to lose him to UFA status? It would even be risky if that player wasn't a former traded player like would you trade Kessel for Getzlaf for example knowing that this could be a short-term return on the trade when you consider UFA status of the acquired player..

So this trade makes little sense from a Boston perspective on many levels.

 

[redbull]

Kessel is talented, and provided some nice highlight goals for the Bruins, but I'd be very surprised if you found one single Bruins fan who'd make that trade.

wouldn't expect them to. Bergeron does for Boston what Kessel can't do for Boston.

Boston is a far better team than the Leafs, they have balanced scoring, they can afford to NOT HAVE Kessel and still be good.

If the Leafs lost Kessel and replaced him with Bergeron, they wouldn't be any better, likely worse. Trades are supposed to benefit both teams, address needs, they are almost never a matter of who's "better" at that time or whether the fan based would "make that trade"

 

[DK46]

It is amazing what playing on a good team can do for you is it not? I mean if you put Bergeron on the Leafs for his career and left Kessel on Boston for his whole career, do you honestly expect Bergeron to have won much? I expect that Kessel would have a cup with Boston while Bergeron would be that underrated talent who never wins anything.

What is really amazing is you imply that Bergeron is only along for the ride and is not one of the main contributors to his team's success. Every good team has different players who are a big part of their success. Bergeron is one of them. Is he a superstar, no.

People soon forget that Bergeron played on Team Canada for the Men's World Championship as a rookie and played well and contributed to the team winning gold. The following year he played on the stacked WJC team and was named the tournament MVP if I recall correctly. He was huge in helping Boston win the cup in 2011 including 2 goals in Game 7. He's battled adversity by coming back from an injury that almost ended his career to making the Olympic team (albeit it's a shame he pulled his groin in the 1st or 2nd game as he did not play much of a role outside of faceoffs), to winning the Stanley Cup and winning the Selke trophy......but yeah he is not a winner or better yet he just lets success and hard work come to him and reap the rewards...

you can play the "but if he was on X team" he would not have won this or that..you can do that with almost any player.... unfortunately no one knows what the outcome would be because what has happened is reality....sorry no time machines or crystal ball....and speaking of reality at the end of the day what ever opportunity has been put in front of Bergeron he has delivered and contributed in ways that helped his team but to downplay his role and impact on his team's success is just plain dumb.

Both players bring different things to the table as far as their game. Would Boston have won the Cup with Kessel instead of Bergeron? For me, it doesn't matter because no one knows the answer. Pretty big assumption to make that Kessel would have produced the same result and pretty big assumption for me to say they wouldn't have won. Regardless, Boston won it with Bergeron as a key member and that is all that matters. The rest is history.

As far as the Kessel for Bergeron question. It's a no from both sides and I completely understand why from both camps.

 

[ACC1224]

What is really amazing is you imply that Bergeron is only along for the ride and is not one of the main contributors to his team's success. Every good team has different players who are a big part of their success. Bergeron is one of them. Is he a superstar, no.

People soon forget that Bergeron played on Team Canada for the Men's World Championship as a rookie and played well and contributed to the team winning gold. The following year he played on the stacked WJC team and was named the tournament MVP if I recall correctly. He was huge in helping Boston win the cup in 2011 including 2 goals in Game 7. He's battled adversity by coming back from an injury that almost ended his career to making the Olympic team (albeit it's a shame he pulled his groin in the 1st or 2nd game as he did not play much of a role outside of faceoffs), to winning the Stanley Cup and winning the Selke trophy......but yeah he is not a winner or better yet he just lets success and hard work come to him and reap the rewards...

you can play the "but if he was on X team" he would not have won this or that..you can do that with almost any player.... unfortunately no one knows what the outcome would be because what has happened is reality....sorry no time machines or crystal ball....and speaking of reality at the end of the day what ever opportunity has been put in front of Bergeron he has delivered and contributed in ways that helped his team but to downplay his role and impact on his team's success is just plain dumb.

Both players bring different things to the table as far as their game. Would Boston have won the Cup with Kessel instead of Bergeron? For me, it doesn't matter because no one knows the answer. Pretty big assumption to make that Kessel would have produced the same result and pretty big assumption for me to say they wouldn't have won. Regardless, Boston won it with Bergeron as a key member and that is all that matters. The rest is history.

As far as the Kessel for Bergeron question. It's a no from both sides and I completely understand why from both camps.

Yes, Bergeron is a good Player.

The point was Hockey is a Team game which you seem to get while some others in here don't seem realize it.

 

[BBB24]

No doubt Bergeron has played on some stacked Teams, very good Team player.
One for one, Kessel is far more skilled.

Yes but you failed to mention how Bergeron's skillset got him on those teams, and helped everyone of them be winners, not alone, but he played a big role. You are aware I am sure that Bergeron is the only player ever to have played in the World Hockey Championships prior to playing in the WJC. Also to your point on Kessel being far more skilled, you could not be more wrong, Kessel is a better scorer, that is where his "better" end, he is not close on leadership, checking, defensive play, faceoffs, +/-, when he wins something of significance people will then listen to you. You build your teams around guys like Bergerons not Kessels, all GMs know this.

 

[ACC1224]

Yes but you failed to mention how Bergeron's skillset got him on those teams, and helped everyone of them be winners, not alone, but he played a big role. You are aware I am sure that Bergeron is the only player ever to have played in the World Hockey Championships prior to playing in the WJC. Also to your point on Kessel being far more skilled, you could not be more wrong, Kessel is a better scorer, that is where his "better" end, he is not close on leadership, checking, defensive play, faceoffs, +/-, when he wins something of significance people will then listen to you. You build your teams around guys like Bergerons not Kessels, all GMs know this.

Why would I need to mention what "got him on those teams"? He's a very good player, thought that was apparent to anyone familiar with the game.

Yes Bergeron is better at the 2 way game where Kessel is superior at the top end skills. That's not a knock on Bergeron, there aren't many players better than Kessel in that area.

I don't think you have any idea what "all GMs know".

Curious, are the Bruins built around Bergeron?

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Yes but you failed to mention how Bergeron's skillset got him on those teams, and helped everyone of them be winners, not alone, but he played a big role. You are aware I am sure that Bergeron is the only player ever to have played in the World Hockey Championships prior to playing in the WJC. Also to your point on Kessel being far more skilled, you could not be more wrong, Kessel is a better scorer, that is where his "better" end, he is not close on leadership, checking, defensive play, faceoffs, +/-, when he wins something of significance people will then listen to you. You build your teams around guys like Bergerons not Kessels, all GMs know this.

Well maybe not ALL Gms....

 

[zeke]

Trading one of the top scoring wingers in hockey for a #2 centre is stupid, obviously.

 

[Gobias Industries]

Why would I need to mention what "got him on those teams"? He's a very good player, thought that was apparent to anyone familiar with the game.

Yes Bergeron is better at the 2 way game where Kessel is superior at the top end skills. That's not a knock on Bergeron, there aren't many players better than Kessel in that area.

I don't think you have any idea what "all GMs know".

Curious, are the Bruins built around Bergeron?

I would say the Bruins are built around Bergeron, simply because you don't really "build" around anything but a forward. I would say the team takes their cues from his play. The unselfish, two-way play that Julien institutes is really setoff by Bergeron.

He is the presumptive next captain of the team, and that certainly plays a factor as well. After previous years of let downs many Bruins fans were looking for the C to go from Chara to Bergeron.

Of course, without Chara and elite goaltending the Bruins wouldn't be able to find the same success they've had, so the concept of building around Bergeron doesn't hold as much weight as it might for other teams.

 

[PB37]

No Mess, Boston didn't choose those guys over Kessel. Kessel wanted out. It's been pointed out numerous times before, and Chia stated many times that they wanted Phil in Boston.

Chia's statement is a little disingenuous. It's true Kessel wanted out, but a large reason why is because the Bruins didn't really want him. He was not " their guy " in his draft year ( they tried to trade for Backstrom, who management valued highly ), and every year he was nearly traded away in very public trades that fizzled out in the last minute. Hossa one year, Kovalchuk another year, Peron and Tkachuk at the deadline, and the draft day fiasco of the failed Kaberle trade. He also was not getting along with Boston's leadership core, getting into a dispute with Chara during practice and then Recchi during the playoff run in his final year with Boston.

 

[Gobias Industries]

Trading one of the top scoring wingers in hockey for a #2 centre is stupid, obviously.

The only thing I'd add is that "top scoring winger" clearly defines Kessel, whereas "#2 centre" doesn't really incapsulate what Bergeron brings to a team.

I'm not sure why we all enjoy narrowing the scope in defining players, but to refer to Bergeron as a #2 centre is to do just that.

 

[ACC1224]

I would say the Bruins are built around Bergeron, simply because you don't really "build" around anything but a forward. I would say the team takes their cues from his play. The unselfish, two-way play that Julien institutes is really setoff by Bergeron.

He is the presumptive next captain of the team, and that certainly plays a factor as well. After previous years of let downs many Bruins fans were looking for the C to go from Chara to Bergeron.

Of course, without Chara and elite goaltending the Bruins wouldn't be able to find the same success they've had, so the concept of building around Bergeron doesn't hold as much weight as it might for other teams.

That's kind of what I thought. They are pretty much the definition of a Team.

 

[JVR2112]

Chia's statement is a little disingenuous. It's true Kessel wanted out, but a large reason why is because the Bruins didn't really want him. He was not " their guy " in his draft year ( they tried to trade for Backstrom, who management valued highly ), and every year he was nearly traded away in very public trades that fizzled out in the last minute. Hossa one year, Kovalchuk another year, Peron and Tkachuk at the deadline, and the draft day fiasco of the failed Kaberle trade. He also was not getting along with Boston's leadership core, getting into a dispute with Chara during practice and then Recchi during the playoff run in his final year with Boston.

Do you have proof of any of this?

 

[Gobias Industries]

That's kind of what I thought. They are pretty much the definition of a Team.

Yeah, which definitely muddies the water in any hypothetical situation like this.

I do think Bergeron would score more in Toronto, and Kessel would score less in Boston. To what degree and what other characteristics each could provide is far more uncertain.

I don't really know how this has gone on for as many pages as it has.

 

[PB37]

Do you have proof of any of this?

It's all been public knowledge. If you weren't there during the years talking about it on the Bruins board, you could probably search and find links from the insiders who reported everything.

 

[maplehawk]

Fill one hole and open another? Seems pretty pointless.

 

[JVR2112]

It's all been public knowledge. If you weren't there during the years talking about it on the Bruins board, you could probably search and find links from the insiders who reported everything.

I wish I could write a paper and in the reference page put "Public knowledge".

 

[Porn*]

i'm a big bergeron fan but he isn't on the same level as kessel... i'd pass w/out second thoughts.

 

[BBB24]

Why would I need to mention what "got him on those teams"? He's a very good player, thought that was apparent to anyone familiar with the game.

Yes Bergeron is better at the 2 way game where Kessel is superior at the top end skills. That's not a knock on Bergeron, there aren't many players better than Kessel in that area.

I don't think you have any idea what "all GMs know".

Curious, are the Bruins built around Bergeron?

Well I am happy to see our negoiations are going well, you admit how good Bergeron is and I will counter with "Kessel is a great scorer."

I have an idea what the GMs think, if you follow hockey at all it is pretty easy to figure out, you build your team around the best possible players, starting with the goalie/defence to the forwards. Yes the Bruins are definately built around Bergeron, along with Krejci, Chara, Lucic, Seguin, Marchand and so on, these are what is meant by 'CORE' players, you need to build around your core players, just about every GM attempts this, some with better luck than others. Once Burke figures this out and stops trading his picks, the Leafs will once again challange, and I am serious when I say I hope it is sooner rather than later. As a Bruins fan I use to love to watch Kessel fly down the wing, knowing full well there was a good chance of a goal, but I will also say I was usually closing my eyes when he was on the ice and the puck was coming back the other way. The game is not all about goals, it is important that the team collectively scores goals and collectively plays sound defence, rather than rely on one player to do it all, that in a nutshell this the Leafs present problem, only one pure goal scorer.

I do not think Bergeron could help improve the Leafs alone, especially at the expence of Kessel, but they would be no worse off if the two players switched places, thankfully it will never happen. The Leafs need more to make Kessel better, starting with a goaltender, their defence is good and will definately get better in a year or two with Gardner and Reilly, but Kessel needs help up front, he is easy to stop, just watch the Bruins/Leaf games to see the issue.

 

[zeke]

The only thing I'd add is that "top scoring winger" clearly defines Kessel, whereas "#2 centre" doesn't really incapsulate what Bergeron brings to a team.

I'm not sure why we all enjoy narrowing the scope in defining players, but to refer to Bergeron as a #2 centre is to do just that.

well, he's not a #1 centre, that's for sure.

and it's amazing how easy it is to look great defensively when you have the best goaltending in the league behind you.

 

[Mess]

Fill one hole and open another? Seems pretty pointless.

Bergeron fills more than 1 hole however as Leafs are in desperate need of a top 6 center..

The Leafs also had the 29th worst goals against and the 28th worst PK%, and Bergeron (the Selke winner) addresses these gaping holes at the same time, as one of the NHL's best 2-way forwards, key face-off and PKer as the NHL's #1 +/- player. A reduction in goals against and improved PK% alone would win the Leafs more games through Bergeron's contributions.

He also brings leadership and winning proven resume that also address Leafs team needs that are currently lacking.

Bergeron recorded 22 goals while Kessel added 37 last year a difference of 15 goals total.. So everything that Bergeron brings to a team at the expense of 15 mere goals should be a no-brainer of a decision when provided who would you build a winning team around preferring a complete player. Bergeron's offensive numbers are unselfishly self sacrificed in order to play solid defense, as his league leading +36 +/- suggests he focuses his attention to, as any good team player would who puts the teams best interest in front of his own personal stats.

So I can see why the OP thread starter would covet Bergeron in trade as he fills numerous gaping key holes throughout Leafs line-up by the addition of just a single player, making them instantly better in many areas.

 

[Lobster57]

well, he's not a #1 centre, that's for sure.

and it's amazing how easy it is to look great defensively when you have the best goaltending in the league behind you.

It's easy to look great defensively when you are great defensively.