Would you trade Kessel for Patrice Bergeron straight up?

[Dangles McGavin]

Bergeron's awesome, but losing Kessel would make the Leafs significantly worse.

 

[b in vancouver]

Bergeron's awesome, but losing Kessel would make the Leafs significantly worse.

I think it would make watching the team worse but make the team actually better and that they would win more games with Bergeron in the line-up than Kessel.
I think it would take some of the leadership pressure off Phaneuf and allow him to focus on his game more.
I also think that his leadership, professionalism, style of play and commitment to the game would be a fantastic influence on Kulemin, Grabovski, Kadri and the like.

Kessel sells tickets and keeps people glued to the television which is important in some markets, teams that either need some buzz or others that have been starved for that kind of 'wow' play every once in awhile.
Bergeron quietly makes the team better and wins hockey games.

_p.s. Another example of a G.M.'s love of Bergeron's game is Yzerman picking him over players like Stamkos and St. Louis for team Canada.

 

[-DeMo-]

well, he's not a #1 centre, that's for sure.

and it's amazing how easy it is to look great defensively when you have the best goaltending in the league behind you.

15th in scoring among center's last season and everyone knows he's a great defensive player, among the best faceoff takers, and a great leader. all those things put together make him a #1 center.

and Bergeron doesn't look like one of the best defensive forwards because of Thomas he is that good, and everybody knows it.

 

[ACC1224]

I think it would make watching the team worse but make the team actually better and that they would win more games with Bergeron in the line-up than Kessel.
I think it would take some of the leadership pressure off Phaneuf and allow him to focus on his game more.
I also think that his leadership, professionalism, style of play and commitment to the game would be a fantastic influence on Kulemin, Grabovski, Kadri and the like.

Kessel sells tickets and keeps people glued to the television which is important in some markets, teams that either need some buzz or others that have been starved for that kind of 'wow' play every once in awhile.
Bergeron quietly makes the team better and wins hockey games.

_p.s. Another example of a G.M.'s love of Bergeron's game is Yzerman picking him over players like Stamkos and St. Louis for team Canada.

So you wouldn't trade Stamkos straight up for Bergeron?

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I would not mind trading Kessel and I would rather have Bergeron on the team then him, but not for him. Kessel have much more value then that.

 

[b in vancouver]

So you wouldn't trade Stamkos straight up for Bergeron?

I will say that there are definitely better players than Bergeron in the league but very few forwards that I think would give Boston a better chance at winning another Cup.

After dominating the Canucks in game 7 in Vancouver, when they're winning 3-0 and he has 3 points his quote of 'It's not enough.' in between periods is what I want on my team.

 

[4evaBlue]

I do think Bergeron would score more in Toronto, and Kessel would score less in Boston. To what degree and what other characteristics each could provide is far more uncertain.

I actually think the opposite. Teams not being able to focus solely on Kessel would make him an even more dangerous player. Consider how much his game improved when he started playing with another 6 top player.

Conversely, if Bergeron becomes the sole focus of teams to shut down offensively (which is currently not the case on the Bruins), his offensive game would suffer.

 

[The Apologist]

Yeah, which definitely muddies the water in any hypothetical situation like this.

I do think Bergeron would score more in Toronto, and Kessel would score less in Boston. To what degree and what other characteristics each could provide is far more uncertain.

I don't really know how this has gone on for as many pages as it has.

Lots of Bruins fans and the usual suspects here.

No offense as I generally enjoy your posts.

 

[The Apologist]

I will say that there are definitely better players than Bergeron in the league but very few forwards that I think would give Boston a better chance at winning another Cup.

After dominating the Canucks in game 7 in Vancouver, when they're winning 3-0 and he has 3 points his quote of 'It's not enough.' in between periods is what I want on my team.

That wasn't the question....

 

[The Apologist]

Bergeron fills more than 1 hole however as Leafs are in desperate need of a top 6 center..

The Leafs also had the 29th worst goals against and the 28th worst PK%, and Bergeron (the Selke winner) addresses these gaping holes at the same time, as one of the NHL's best 2-way forwards, key face-off and PKer as the NHL's #1 +/- player. A reduction in goals against and improved PK% alone would win the Leafs more games through Bergeron's contributions.

He also brings leadership and winning proven resume that also address Leafs team needs that are currently lacking.

Bergeron recorded 22 goals while Kessel added 37 last year a difference of 15 goals total.. So everything that Bergeron brings to a team at the expense of 15 mere goals should be a no-brainer of a decision when provided who would you build a winning team around preferring a complete player. Bergeron's offensive numbers are unselfishly self sacrificed in order to play solid defense, as his league leading +36 +/- suggests he focuses his attention to, as any good team player would who puts the teams best interest in front of his own personal stats.

So I can see why the OP thread starter would covet Bergeron in trade as he fills numerous gaping key holes throughout Leafs line-up by the addition of just a single player, making them instantly better in many areas.

So you would do the trade straight up? Simple question.

 

[Gobias Industries]

I actually think the opposite. Teams not being able to focus solely on Kessel would make him an even more dangerous player. Consider how much his game improved when he started playing with another 6 top player.

Conversely, if Bergeron becomes the sole focus of teams to shut down offensively (which is currently not the case on the Bruins), his offensive game would suffer.

I am definitely a believer that team dynamics are a larger influence than "focus".

I find it hard to believe in general that Kessel could produce "even more" in an insulated role, but you make a valid point.

 

[Gobias Industries]

Lots of Bruins fans and the usual suspects here.

No offense as I generally enjoy your posts.

Thanks, I really only venture onto this board in an attempt to provide some perspective. As I've explained dozens of times I'm a Torontonian whose knowledge of the Leafs is pretty much parallel with my rooting team, the Bruins.

As others have noted, if we're not trying to be objective in answering these questions, then what's the point?

In any case, I'm not sure what this debate will offer any further. But, then again I could talk Bergeron and Kessel all night as they're two of my favourite players.

 

[The Apologist]

Thanks, I really only venture onto this board in an attempt to provide some perspective. As I've explained dozens of times I'm a Torontonian whose knowledge of the Leafs is pretty much parallel with my rooting team, the Bruins.

As others have noted, if we're not trying to be objective in answering these questions, then what's the point?

In any case, I'm not sure what this debate will offer any further. But, then again I could talk Bergeron and Kessel all night as they're two of my favourite players.

Yes, but it is very hard to find an honest objective opinion on the Leafs. You will find that certain elements are firm believers that every player on this team is overrated and useless, that there are no redeeming qualities on a team that has struggled as much as this one has. You will also find that these people generally only apply this rule to this team.

You can somewhat understand the defensive nature of this fanbase.

 

[PB37]

I actually think the opposite. Teams not being able to focus solely on Kessel would make him an even more dangerous player. Consider how much his game improved when he started playing with another 6 top player.

Conversely, if Bergeron becomes the sole focus of teams to shut down offensively (which is currently not the case on the Bruins), his offensive game would suffer.

With Thornton traded, on an absolute **** team ( 29-37-0-16 ), and with Marco Sturm and Brad Boyes for linemates, Bergeron put up the first of back to back 70 point seasons: 31 goals, 42 assists, 73 points as a 21 year old in his second year in the league. He was the main offensive focal point and he thrived.

 

[PB37]

Curious, are the Bruins built around Bergeron?

To add what Gobias Industries said - The Bruins general manager at the time, Mike O'Connell, recalled in a June 2011 interview that the organization had made a decision to build the team around Bergeron instead of Thornton, preferring the former's on- and off-ice character. Audio: http://www.freezepage.com/1319307625YXISIFGARO

 

[4evaBlue]

With Thornton traded, on an absolute **** team ( 29-37-0-16 ), and with Marco Sturm and Brad Boyes for linemates, Bergeron put up the first of back to back 70 point seasons: 31 goals, 42 assists, 73 points as a 21 year old in his second year in the league. He was the main offensive focal point and he thrived.

Makes you wonder what's happened to him since then. It looked like he had the makings of a PPG player, but as the team improved around him, his offense dried up a bit. Not only has his point production decreased, but he goes from a 300+ shot on net guy during his sophomore season (career year) to having a hard time to break 200.

I'm sure if I watched the Bruins more, I'd be able to answer that question. Since you obviously do, would you mind filling me in on this?

 

[PB37]

Makes you wonder what's happened to him since then. It looked like he had the makings of a PPG player, but as the team improved around him, his offense dried up a bit. Not only has his point production decreased, but he goes from a 300+ shot on net guy during his sophomore season (career year) to having a hard time to break 200.

I'm sure if I watched the Bruins more, I'd be able to answer that question. Since you obviously do, would you mind filling me in on this?

Two reasons -

Team need: Bergeron was the team's best defensive center and was being used more in defensive situations. Once Savard was put out from the Cooke hit, Bergeron was put back in a more offensive role. When he was resigned, Chia mentioned all of this.

Career threatening injury: The Jones hit set back Bergeron's development.

 

[MeowLeafs]

If we can get another high scoring winger then yes. Bergeron brings an element to the game that is completely foreign to us, defense.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

With Thornton traded, on an absolute **** team ( 29-37-0-16 ), and with Marco Sturm and Brad Boyes for linemates, Bergeron put up the first of back to back 70 point seasons: 31 goals, 42 assists, 73 points as a 21 year old in his second year in the league. He was the main offensive focal point and he thrived.

That was years ago. Bergeron isn't putting up that production since his injuries.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

I will say that there are definitely better players than Bergeron in the league but very few forwards that I think would give Boston a better chance at winning another Cup.

After dominating the Canucks in game 7 in Vancouver, when they're winning 3-0 and he has 3 points his quote of 'It's not enough.' in between periods is what I want on my team.

Eh. That's a nothing comment.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

15th in scoring among center's last season and everyone knows he's a great defensive player, among the best faceoff takers, and a great leader. all those things put together make him a #1 center.

and Bergeron doesn't look like one of the best defensive forwards because of Thomas he is that good, and everybody knows it.

He's not a #1 centre. You do not trade the 6th highest scorer in the league for a #2 centre. It's insane.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

What is really amazing is you imply that Bergeron is only along for the ride and is not one of the main contributors to his team's success. Every good team has different players who are a big part of their success. Bergeron is one of them. Is he a superstar, no.

People soon forget that Bergeron played on Team Canada for the Men's World Championship as a rookie and played well and contributed to the team winning gold. The following year he played on the stacked WJC team and was named the tournament MVP if I recall correctly. He was huge in helping Boston win the cup in 2011 including 2 goals in Game 7. He's battled adversity by coming back from an injury that almost ended his career to making the Olympic team (albeit it's a shame he pulled his groin in the 1st or 2nd game as he did not play much of a role outside of faceoffs), to winning the Stanley Cup and winning the Selke trophy......but yeah he is not a winner or better yet he just lets success and hard work come to him and reap the rewards...

you can play the "but if he was on X team" he would not have won this or that..you can do that with almost any player.... unfortunately no one knows what the outcome would be because what has happened is reality....sorry no time machines or crystal ball....and speaking of reality at the end of the day what ever opportunity has been put in front of Bergeron he has delivered and contributed in ways that helped his team but to downplay his role and impact on his team's success is just plain dumb.

Both players bring different things to the table as far as their game. Would Boston have won the Cup with Kessel instead of Bergeron? For me, it doesn't matter because no one knows the answer. Pretty big assumption to make that Kessel would have produced the same result and pretty big assumption for me to say they wouldn't have won. Regardless, Boston won it with Bergeron as a key member and that is all that matters. The rest is history.

As far as the Kessel for Bergeron question. It's a no from both sides and I completely understand why from both camps.

It's not like he was reason for tghose wins. He had a limited role on a stacked Team Canada in 2010'. In 2011', Thomas had, arguably the best goaltinging performance ever in the NHl.

 

[thecatch22]

Sideways move. Couldn't find a winger for Sundin and now we can't find a center for Kessel.

 

[EverettMike]

This is great. Toronto fans and Bruins fans never agree.

Neither fanbase would make this trade.

 

[-DeMo-]

He's not a #1 centre. You do not trade the 6th highest scorer in the league for a #2 centre. It's insane.

that had nothing to do with trading him for kessel... and yes Bergeron is a #1 center.