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Would you trade Kessel for Patrice Bergeron straight up?

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Pierre Gotye said:
If Bergeron is a true first line NHL center, then Kessel is a true 3rd line winger.

Bergeron was surrounded by veterans and overall forward depth that the Leafs don't have. On top of that he plays in front of Rask and Thomas, and a team that buys into a defensive system. Kessel has yet to play with a true first line center, on a team stacked with veterans, a defensive system and reliable goaltending.

Bergeron is the beneficiary of a team system and structure, and if you think his success on the Bruins would translate the same way on a team like say the Blue Jackets, or even the Maple Leafs then then what can we tell you?

It's not to say Bergeron lacks talent and isn't effective, but it does mean he is not by any means an elite player in the mold that Kessel is.

Putting Bergeron on the Leafs doesn't really make this team any better. Especially if the asking price is Phil Kessel.
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That was Kessel on the Bruins, granted he was 21. That said, Krejci was 22 and outscored him PPG.

I'm struggling to find your point here. You should just subjectively judge them, but to say good players on good teams have less value then their poor team counterparts seems like an odd generality.

Again, I agree the trade doesn't make sense for the Leafs.
 
Funk Volume said:
You either have game breaking offensive talent or you don't. Defense can be taught.

Phil Kessel is a rare breed of a player. Patrice Bergerons style is far for common. Both valuable, but Kessel more so.
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Wouldn't this suggest that all players should be defensively sound? Or that discrepancies between teams defensive abilities should be smaller than they are?

I guess the question is, if defense can be taught, how come it isn't always being done?
 
Pierre Gotye said:
If Bergeron is a true first line NHL center, then Kessel is a true 3rd line winger.

Bergeron was surrounded by veterans and overall forward depth that the Leafs don't have. On top of that he plays in front of Rask and Thomas, and a team that buys into a defensive system.

Bergeron is the beneficiary of a team system and structure, and if you think his success on the Bruins would translate the same way on a team like say the Blue Jackets, or even the Maple Leafs then then what can we tell you?

This is a silly thread, that has by default, invited the trolls.
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I'm very interest to see how Carlyle instills a new defensive awareness in Toronto's systems and how he demands his players buy into it..

Focusing on defense and proper defensive positioning and responsibilities puts a strain on the teams offensive attack as a sacrifice.

Kessel's offensive numbers moving from Wilson's pond hockey no defense, to Carlyle's new system could see his numbers drop. In Boston Claude Julien's defense first system and Kessel were like oil and water not mixing well, and one of the reasons Kessel wanted out as he didn't want to buy into his defensive responsibilities.

Bergeron in Boston self sacrifices offense in order to play strong defense and his numbers in comparison to Kessel are lower due to being focused on team results ahead of individual results.
 
ACC1224 said:
Who was the last guy to win the Selke from a Team with poor Goaltending?
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It's hard to nail causality.

Was it that the defensively sound team created a great goalie?

OR

A great goalie lends the appearance of a defensively sound team?

To me, when you watch the games, the elite defensive skills that a Selke would suggest are more than evident in Bergeron.
 
Pierre Gotye said:
If Bergeron is a true first line NHL center, then Kessel is a true 3rd line winger.

Bergeron was surrounded by veterans and overall forward depth that the Leafs don't have. On top of that he plays in front of Rask and Thomas, and a team that buys into a defensive system. Kessel has yet to play with a true first line center, on a team stacked with veterans, a defensive system and reliable goaltending.

Bergeron is the beneficiary of a team system and structure, and if you think his success on the Bruins would translate the same way on a team like say the Blue Jackets, or even the Maple Leafs then then what can we tell you?

It's not to say Bergeron lacks talent and isn't effective, but it does mean he is not by any means an elite player in the mold that Kessel is.

Putting Bergeron on the Leafs doesn't really make this team any better. Especially if the asking price is Phil Kessel.
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I won't disagree with your last statement, as you'd be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

But no, Bergeron isn't the "beneficiary" of overall forward depth or a defensive system. He's a member of the quadruple gold club and the epitome of a complete hockey player.

I do agree that he's not being traded. He'll don the C when Chara retires and will himself retire a Bruin.
 
Gobias Industries said:
It's hard to nail causality.

Was it that the defensively sound team created a great goalie?

OR

A great goalie lends the appearance of a defensively sound team?

To me, when you watch the games, the elite defensive skills that a Selke would suggest are more than evident in Bergeron.
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Absolutely, he's a great two way player.

Team is the key though. No way he wins the Selke playing on last years Leafs.

The question though was to the young giggler who doesn't realize that a Goalie can have a great effect on defensive play.
 
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ACC1224 said:
Absolutely, he's a great two way player.

Team is the key though. No way he wins the Selke playing on last years Leafs.
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I agree, so far as we can agree that a loss of a player like Bergeron to the Bruins could very much affect the "team".

To me, he is the straw that stirs the drink. I question the relevance and accuracy of any hypothetical team-switching situation for any player. We've seen dream scenarios turn into nightmares and vice versa.

Each player and situation is different so we should probably stick to judging players by what we've seen and offset for specific reasons, but keeping the empircal data ahead of our thought experiments.
 
Gobias Industries said:
I completey agree that a goalie can be as much a part of a defensive system as any other player.

This is especially true for the Bruins.
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While a goalie will always factor in the results the system and the players in front of him play a big part..

Datsyuk and Zetterberg lead the Wings in scoring but they're also great 2-way players as winners and runners up to previous Selke trophies would indicate.

Jimmy Howard is not considered an elite NHL goalie, but his personal numbers very reflective and benefactor of his teammates and system. That is what makes the Wings a successful team and Howard doesn't make Datsyuk one of the leagues best 2 way players by his play in net, its more the opposite as to who is responsible for the others individual success. IMO

Bergeron would make any team he played on better by his defensive contributions and when some people only focus on offensive individual player stats and ignore the contributions to team success made by individuals they're not seeing the big picture in a team game, when doing a 1-1 comparison of points alone.

Bergeron and Kessel were separated by 15 goals (22 verses 37) so how much value do Bergeron's Selke worthy defensive contributions outweigh Kessel and offset 15 more goals to swing the pendulum in his direction. A good playmaking center can improve his wingers offensive contributions and reduce that goal differential of an individual comparison 1-1 also as he makes his linemates and team better.
 
Bergeron for Kessel?

Why would the Leafs do this? They already have several 3rd line centers.
 
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Other places....some sort of actions would've been taken but we're nice here.

One more time. Not so much :)

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Mess said:
I'm very interest to see how Carlyle instills a new defensive awareness in Toronto's systems and how he demands his players buy into it..

Focusing on defense and proper defensive positioning and responsibilities puts a strain on the teams offensive attack as a sacrifice.

Kessel's offensive numbers moving from Wilson's pond hockey no defense, to Carlyle's new system could see his numbers drop. In Boston Claude Julien's defense first system and Kessel were like oil and water not mixing well, and one of the reasons Kessel wanted out as he didn't want to buy into his defensive responsibilities.

Bergeron in Boston self sacrifices offense in order to play strong defense and his numbers in comparison to Kessel are lower due to being focused on team results ahead of individual results.
Click to expand...


This whole theory of Carlyle= everyone who is offensive will have worse numbers and won't adapt is such BS.

For one, the last season Kessel played with the Bruins he paced 40+ goals and 70+ points with a +/- of +23. Followed the Reg season up with 11P in 11GP in the playoffs as a 20/21 year old.

Bergeron had 39P in 60GP and a +2 that season as a 23/24 year old.

I can guarantee that Caryle will be no more defensive than Julien is in Boston.


Not to mention Perry won a Rocket Richard/Hart trophy with Carlye as his coach and Getzlaf had several PPG+ seasons under Carlyle.


I think some of the facts mentioned above indicate that quality teams/team systems are what make a player "look good defensively" and that Carlyle as coach DOES NOT mean that our top offensive players have to crawl into a corner and accept sub par offensive performance.
 
tpc77 said:
This whole theory of Carlyle= everyone who is offensive will have worse numbers and won't adapt is such BS.

For one, the last season Kessel played with the Bruins he paced 40+ goals and 70+ points with a +/- of +23. Followed the Reg season up with 11P in 11GP in the playoffs as a 20/21 year old.

Bergeron had 39P in 60GP and a +2 that season as a 23/24 year old.

I can guarantee that Caryle will be no more defensive than Julien is in Boston.


Not to mention Perry won a Rocket Richard/Hart trophy with Carlye as his coach and Getzlaf had several PPG+ seasons under Carlyle.


I think some of the facts mentioned above indicate that quality teams/team systems are what make a player "look good defensively" and that Carlyle as coach DOES NOT mean that our top offensive players have to crawl into a corner and accept sub par offensive performance.
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Glad to hear some people know that players can evolve their game. Not to mention Selanne also played like a boss under Carlyle.
 
People reallydon't appreciate how difficult and rare it is to finish 6th in league scoring.
 
Career Top-6 Scoring Finishes:

J.Jagr (9): 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 6th
J.Sakic (8): 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 6th, 6th
J.Thornton (4): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th
S.Crosby (4): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th
M.St.Louis (4): 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th
T.Selanne (4): 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 5th
E.Malkin (3): 1st, 1st, 2nd
J.Iginla (3): 1st, 3rd, 6th
M.Naslund (3): 2nd, 2nd, 4th
S.Stamkos (3): 2nd, 5th, 5th
I.Kovalchuk (3): 2nd, 5th, 6th
H.Sedin (2): 1st, 4th
T.Bertuzzi (2): 3rd, 5th
P.Elias (2): 3rd, 6th
V.Lecavalier (2): 3rd, 6th
P.Datsyuk (2): 4th, 4th
D.Heatley (2): 4th, 4th
J.Spezza (2): 4th, 6th
M.Hossa (2): 5th, 6th
D.Sedin (1): 1st
C.Perry (1): 3rd
C.Giroux (1): 3rd
M.Sundin (1): 4th
D.Alfredsson (1): 4th
N.Backstrom (1): 4th
A.Kovalev (1): 4th
Z.Parise (1): 5th
P.Kessel (1): 6th
H.Zetterberg (1): 6th
R.Getzlaf (1): 6th
E.Staal (0): ---
A.Mogilny (0): ---
P.Kane (0): ---
T.Vanek (0): ---
D.Briere (0): ---
J.Tavares (0): ---
R.Nash (0): ---
B.Richards (0): ---
M.Gaborik (0): ---
M.Savard (0): ---
A.Kopitar (0): ---
L.Eriksson (0); ---
J.Williams (0): ---
M.Cammalleri (0): ---
M.Richards (0): ---
J.Carter (0): ---
M.Havlat (0): ---
A.Semin (0): ---
 
MajorityRules said:
Bergeron for Kessel?

Why would the Leafs do this? They already have several 3rd line centers.
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^This guy:laugh:

Trade doesn't really work for either team. The Leafs would be killing one problem to create another. The Bruins would be getting rid of their heart and soul.
 
Keva Rosenberg said:
No. If Burke wishes to attract players to Toronto, what message is he sending by trading away the player who will define his time in Toronto.

There are many hockey reasons why Kessel should stay but on a more personal level he's shy and awkward like me. He's playing in one of the toughest markets in sports and isn't clawing to get out so I respect that.
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I doubt players give a ***** about how Burkes time is defined... They care about the city, the current team, and its future.

I actually think this would be close to a fair deal, but I'd say no.
 
To anyone who claims Bergeron is not a #1 center, feel free to list 30 better centers.
 
Flying High said:
To anyone who claims Bergeron is not a #1 center, feel free to list 30 better centers.
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You do realize that there are number centers who are centering the first lines for franchise even though in a good team they are second liners right? Not every franchise actually has a bonafide first line center, and without a doubt Bergeron is that excellent second line center a winning team would want.

Off the top of my head
Crosby
Malkin
Kopitar
Datsyuk
Eric Staal
Ryan Getzlaf
Brad Richards
H. Sedin
Backstrom
Thornton

Franchises without a first line but first line centered by a second line or a third liner
Bozak
Hanzal
Weiss
Ribeiro
Dubinsky
Burmistrov
 
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