Would you trade Kessel for Patrice Bergeron straight up?

[Morbo]

well, you guys haven't really answered his point at all.

worse players don't play ahead of better players, unless the coach is an idiot or a guy is being showcased for a move.

 

[7even]

Really? This thread is on the Leaf board. I am a Leaf fan. The poll reeks of homerism and blatant blind loyalty. I would take Bergeron over Kessel any day of the week. But if you want to think the "poll" proves anything then have at 'er. I would say someone should post it on the main forum but the anti-Leafism there would skew the results as bad as they are here. Keep on Rockin'!!!!!

Half of our fans hate our players more than the main board posters do. So there's that.

 

[Gobias Industries]

well, you guys haven't really answered his point at all.

worse players don't play ahead of better players, unless the coach is an idiot or a guy is being showcased for a move.

Well the coach is an idiot then.

Or I suppose I could subscribe to the theory that linemates, chemistry, energy, injuries and likely more factors than we could name, all play a role into deciding time on ice, and that Julien being a Stanley Cup winning and well respected coach probably knows better than you or I how to run his team.

I also know that Bergeron is better than Krejci.

So what I've learned from that is for the Bruins organization, more time on ice does not necessarily mean more talent. Like I said, easy to criticize, but harder so given their success.

 

[PB37]

My contention is that Bergeron isn't any better than Krejci, and their coach knows it.

It's hard to take seriously the player analysis of someone who felt that Matt Stajan is better than Patrice Bergeron or that Bozak would outscore every Bruins center a couple of seasons ago.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=757159&highlight=matt+stajan

 

[zeke]

It's hard to take seriously the player analysis of someone who felt that Matt Stajan is better than Patrice Bergeron or that Bozak would outscore every Bruins center a couple of seasons ago.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=757159&highlight=matt+stajan

yeah, Bozak was only a 50ish point pace guy last year instead of the 60ish point pace guy I thought he'd be. (Bozak 53pt pace, Bergs/Krejci 64pt pace).

my bad.

I'd bring up one of your past boners, but I have no idea who you are.

 

[Gobias Industries]

yeah, Bozak was only a 50ish point pace guy last year instead of the 60ish point pace guy I thought he'd be. (Bozak 53pt pace, Bergs/Krejci 64pt pace).

my bad.

I'd bring up one of your past boners, but I have no idea who you are.

Undoubtedly in hindsight we've all said stupid things, but luckily you just said Krejci is better than Bergeron. If it's a fair stance, why don't you ask anyone to agree with you or perhaps a writer that says as much? Still waiting on the Bruins game tally too, because I don't know how you can even come to that conclusion.

Or is the fruit not hanging low enough?

 

[zeke]

I don't know what else to tell you. Not only does Krejci get more ice than Bergeron on everything other than the PK during the regular season, but that advantage only grows during the playoffs when Krejci gets significantly more ice than Bergeron.

Especially since you guys say he is some super shut-down centre who you'd imagine would be put up against the other team's top-minute Centre all playoff long, it's hard to figure out how Krejci could get more icetime than Bergy at the most important time of the year, when nobody is being rested and everyone is being pushed to the absolute limit.

 

[Gobias Industries]

I don't know what else to tell you. Not only does Krejci get more ice than Bergeron on everything other than the PK during the regular season, but that advantage only grows during the playoffs when Krejci gets significantly more ice than Bergeron.

Especially since you guys say he is some super shut-down centre who you'd imagine would be put up against the other team's top-minute Centre all playoff long, it's hard to figure out how Krejci could get more icetime than Bergy at the most important time of the year, when nobody is being rested and everyone is being pushed to the absolute limit.

You could be answering your own question there. Perhaps there's something to be said about spreading minutes?

You do bring up good questions though, it's just tough to see through to your conclusions given the on-ice evidence.

To be fair, Bergeron did get more time overall in the regular season last year as well.

 

[PB37]

yeah, Bozak was only a 50ish point pace guy last year instead of the 60ish point pace guy I thought he'd be. (Bozak 53pt pace, Bergs/Krejci 64pt pace).

my bad.

I'd bring up one of your past boners, but I have no idea who you are.

You can add " Bergeron isn't any better than Krejci " to your list of boners.

 

[SPV]

I think the value is there; Bergeron is a much more complete player, and Kessel is a much more dynamic player. And I think if you posted this on the Bruins board the poll would be just as lopsided in the other direction.

It's a bad trade for both teams; but that doesn't mean the value is bad.

 

[Auzzie19]

Everyone who is saying Kessel>Bergeron as a player. Bergeron makes others into goal scoring machines. Look what he did for Marchand and Seguin. I'd make the deal, their about the same age (2 years apart).

I know it will never happen, but here's what it should look like:

your set for the next 7 years with a #1C.

Future (hopefully):

Lupul-Bergeron-Kadri/Frattin
Kulemin/McKegg-Grabovski-Frattin/Kadri
Biggs-McClement-Ross
Brown-Steckle-Ryan/Komorov


if they all pan out

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I don't understand the Kessel hate. The guy is a 35 goal winger (40+ if he had a real center) on a team without a top center. It's the Sundin situation all over again, only this time, there are capable wingers, but no center to get them the puck.

I like Bergeron as well, but the downgrade in offense between Bergeron and Kessel is huge.

 

[zeke]

You could be answering your own question there. Perhaps there's something to be said about spreading minutes?

You do bring up good questions though, it's just tough to see through to your conclusions given the on-ice evidence.

To be fair, Bergeron did get more time overall in the regular season last year as well.

the on-ice evidence being that Krejci centres their #1 line, was their best forward in their cup run, and receives more icetime from his coach?

and hey, he gets paid more than Bergy too.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

I don't understand the Kessel hate. The guy is a 35 goal winger (40+ if he had a real center) on a team without a top center. It's the Sundin situation all over again, only this time, there are capable wingers, but no center to get them the puck.

I like Bergeron as well, but the downgrade in offense between Bergeron and Kessel is huge.

There isn't much hate on Kessel on the Leafs side (except for a very vocal minority). Glad to have a guy who brings in high level offence consistently, sans Boston games.

 

[Gobias Industries]

the on-ice evidence being that Krejci centres their #1 line, was their best forward in their cup run, and receives more icetime from his coach?

and hey, he gets paid more than Bergy too.

Well I think most Bruins fans and even Julien would refer to Marchand-Bergeron-Seguin as the first line.

The pay was just a matter of timing I would say though.

Again, it's tough to refute outside of watching the games, which for me is more important.

 

[ACC1224]

Myself I prefer Bergeron to Krejci. I'd take Kessel over both.

Isn't Bozak used more than Grabovski yet Grabovski is the better player?

 

[zeke]

Well I think most Bruins fans and even Julien would refer to Marchand-Bergeron-Seguin as the first line.

The pay was just a matter of timing I would say though.

Again, it's tough to refute outside of watching the games, which for me is more important.

See, we both watch the games.

but for some weird reason, the objective data backs up what I see and not what you see.

 

[Kaoz*]

the on-ice evidence being that Krejci centres their #1 line, was their best forward in their cup run, and receives more icetime from his coach?

and hey, he gets paid more than Bergy too.

No he doesn't, no he wasn't, and Julien runs them both very close in regards to ice time.

And hey, if you want to talk about contracts you might want to also include the fact that Bergeron was given a full NMC while Krejci was given a very limited NTC.

Bergeron is Boston's most important forward and it's not really close. If you debate that you don't know much about the Bruins.

"He's so important to us. He's my go-to guy in all situations," Bruins coach Claude Julien told ESPN.com in a recent interview.

Down a goal late in a game? Bergeron goes over the boards.

Need a crucial faceoff taken? Bergeron.

Need to protect a late lead? Bergeron.

"No doubt, he's the guy I lean on up front," Julien said.

 

[Gobias Industries]

See, we both watch the games.

but for some weird reason, the objective data backs up what I see and not what you see.

You saw last year that Krejci was a better player than Bergeron?

I don't know how "objective" it is, when contextualized within the Bruins' approach to lines.

 

[-DeMo-]

the on-ice evidence being that Krejci centres their #1 line, was their best forward in their cup run, and receives more icetime from his coach?

and hey, he gets paid more than Bergy too.

Krejci got more ice-time sometimes but Bergeron got more shifts per game so really the coach put Bergeron out more often then Krejci Bergeron just takes shorter shifts.

 

[VanIsle]

Both Bergeron and Kessel are great players and the value is there, and in no way is this a not even close type of trade.

Kessel is a true top line scoring winger while Bergeron is a 1a/1b type of center with Selke caliber play.

Neither teams fans on HF do the trade because of the homerism and endless banter that this thread provides.

 

[zeke]

No he doesn't, no he wasn't, and Julien runs them both very close in regards to ice time.

And hey, if you want to talk about contracts you might want to also include the fact that Bergeron was given a full NMC while Krejci was given a very limited NTC.

Bergeron is Boston's most important forward and it's not really close. If you debate that you don't know much about the Bruins.

from that same article:

"He can be the guy if they need him to be the guy," Jones said, preferring to describe Bergeron as a 1B to Krejci's 1A.

or maybe I can search out a Julien compliment for Krecji more recent than that Bergy comment....

http://bostonsportsdesk.wordpress.com/tag/david-krejci/

BOSTON BRUINS HEAD COACH CLAUDE JULIEN PREGAME PRESS BRIEFING AT 1:50 P.M.

On if David Krejci will play today… You’ll see him on the ice in the warm-up.

On the organization’s levelheaded reaction to their playoff series loss to the Philadelphia Flyers in 2010… Well, I think there was a lot of reasons for that, too. For our organization to go backwards would have been a big mistake because, you know, as we mentioned numerous times about this whole situation a few years ago, you know, you’re up 3-0 [in the series], but you lose [David] Krejci, who was probably the best player at the time, we had no [Dennis] Seidenberg, we had no [Andrew] Ference, we had a lot of injuries, and we weren’t the same team, so it was a matter of having cool heads prevail, and that’s what we did. Upper management took a look at it, we had some discussions, and we still had confidence in our team, and we just moved forward from there.

 

[zeke]

You saw last year that Krejci was a better player than Bergeron?

I don't know how "objective" it is, when contextualized within the Bruins' approach to lines.

Their approach is to play their better players less?

 

[Preisst*]

Okay, you can go ahead and take the solid 2nd line centre over an elite top line winger that finished 6th in scoring if you want.

Most people wouldn't do that though, and I think a truly objective poll would reflect this. I do find it amusing that you think these results are homerism though -- do you ever read this board? there are is constant trashing of Kessel going on here, 7 days a week. constant.

At any rate, at least you realize the futility of posting this question anywhere else on this particular community.

Thank you, I will take Bergeron over Kessel in a heartbeat. I do disagree with your claim that Bergeron is a 2nd line centre though. In my opinion he is a first liner. And while I am happy, as a Leaf fan, at the season that Kessel had scoring wise last year I was more impressed with the fact the he actually tried to backcheck and play a more complete game then coming in 6th in scoring.

They are both part of the whole and I think that what Bergeron brings to the table is more valuable than what Kessel does.

As for the trashing that Kessel gets, have you ever stopped to think that he deserves it?

btw - fwiw - I think that Bergeron could play the role that Kessel does if he so decided to play that style of hockey [of course he wouldn't cuz he has more depth than that] but do you for even a second think Kessel could do what Bergeron does?

 

[indigobuffalo]

Bergeron hasn't been super consistent. Looking at +/- is not a great way to judge a player's two-way ability. While I won't question whether or not he IS a good two-way player, that stat does not measure two-way play.

Kessel is just a better player. It takes Bergeron 164 games to do what Kessel does in 82, production-wise. Kessel is also showing consistent improvement in the stat lines, whereas Bergeron has hit the plateau and won't likely see much improvement.

Kessel is, afterall, part of the 2006 draft and Bergeron is part of the 2003 draft.

In three years' time, no one will be looking at this thread and saying: "Bergeron for Kessel is good value to the Leafs."

No one.