Artemis
Took the red pill
It's fairly obvious. He hates French Canadian and college players, and absolutely loathes Bergeron.
Would you trade Kessel for Patrice Bergeron straight up?
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It's fairly obvious. He hates French Canadian and college players, and absolutely loathes Bergeron.
Preisst*
Registered User
Really? This thread is on the Leaf board. I am a Leaf fan. The poll reeks of homerism and blatant blind loyalty. I would take Bergeron over Kessel any day of the week. But if you want to think the "poll" proves anything then have at 'er. I would say someone should post it on the main forum but the anti-Leafism there would skew the results as bad as they are here. Keep on Rockin'!!!!!
Okay, you can go ahead and take the solid 2nd line centre over an elite top line winger that finished 6th in scoring if you want.
Most people wouldn't do that though, and I think a truly objective poll would reflect this. I do find it amusing that you think these results are homerism though -- do you ever read this board? there are is constant trashing of Kessel going on here, 7 days a week. constant.
At any rate, at least you realize the futility of posting this question anywhere else on this particular community.
charliolemieux
rsTmf
- Apr 1, 2010
- 9,715
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THE post rate would triple. 90% Kessel sucks.
Bergeron is a #1 center but he is easily a 3rd teir #1 center. He sure as hell isn't in Crosby, Malkin or Stamkos class.
And I am pretty sure we could come up with a list of 10 other centers that are ahead of him too.
HE sits somewhere in the 15th to 30th range of centers in the league.
Technically he is a #1C.
Now....
Find me 10 RW more dangerous than Kessel.
I'll help you with Ovechkin and Kovalchuk(even though I would rather have Kessel but that takes into account age and contract).
Kane?
Perry?
That's 4.
I know arguments could be made for others, but Kessel was 6th in scoring last year and we need to see if he can continue to improve as the players around him improve. IF we have a skilled big body that Boston needs to use Chara on then Phil is free. I also think he is an elite playmaker, but due to his quick release has been pigeon holed into a sniper role.
If he is going to continue to be an elite goal scorer he needs to develop his timing on a one-timer. He's easily a 40G scorer if he could nail them.
Bottom line I want a 25yr old Kessel more than I want a 27yr old Bergeron with concussion issues.
^This guy
Trade doesn't really work for either team. The Leafs would be killing one problem to create another. The Bruins would be getting rid of their heart and soul.
What's so funny?
I've been told a million times on these boards by Bruin fans and Kessel haters that Seguin is Boston's #1 center (even though he doesn't play center). Krejci is the 2nd line center which means Bergeron must slot in as the 3rd. Unless you consider him your 4th line center. Personally I think he's a little better than a 4th liner.
Gobias Industries
Registered User
Well given that no one other than yourself would rate Krejci above Bergeron, I hope you enjoy your logic.
Bergeron is the #1 centre, Seguin could be the #1 centre, Krejci is below those two. It's not hard to understand.
JAMmer124
Independent Living
THE post rate would triple. 90% Kessel sucks.
Bergeron is a #1 center but he is easily a 3rd teir #1 center. He sure as hell isn't in Crosby, Malkin or Stamkos class.
And I am pretty sure we could come up with a list of 10 other centers that are ahead of him too.
HE sits somewhere in the 15th to 30th range of centers in the league.
Technically he is a #1C.
Now....
Find me 10 RW more dangerous than Kessel.
I'll help you with Ovechkin and Kovalchuk(even though I would rather have Kessel but that takes into account age and contract).
Kane?
Perry?
That's 4.
I know arguments could be made for others, but Kessel was 6th in scoring last year and we need to see if he can continue to improve as the players around him improve. IF we have a skilled big body that Boston needs to use Chara on then Phil is free. I also think he is an elite playmaker, but due to his quick release has been pigeon holed into a sniper role.
If he is going to continue to be an elite goal scorer he needs to develop his timing on a one-timer. He's easily a 40G scorer if he could nail them.
Bottom line I want a 25yr old Kessel more than I want a 27yr old Bergeron with concussion issues.
OV and Kovy are LW.
Perry yes. Kane is debateable(assuming you mean Pat). Eberle deserves to be in the conversation.
Bottom line I agree. Kessel is a top 5 RW in the game. He has surpassed the likes of Iginla and maybe St Louis as well. Bergeron could be a #1 centre for a team like ours, but is MUCH better suited in a second line role.
zeke
The Dube Abides
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Sure, you can slot him in as one of the "bad 1st line centers" in the league.
Bomber0104
Registered User
In a lot of cases actually, the "star" centers who put up a lot of points arent really that strong defensively. That basically necessitates using strong defensive wingers. So you make a trade off here with Bergeron. He obviously doesnt have that supreme offence that people seem to like but theres no denying he makes up for that in other areas.
zeke
The Dube Abides
- Mar 14, 2005
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11-12 Regular Season
Bergeron: 18:35 (1:48pk)
Krejci: 18:25 (0:43pk)
11-12 Playoffs
Krejci: 21:29 (0:33pk)
Bergeron: 19:38 (1:00pk)
10-11 Regular Season
Krejci: 18:51 (1:13pk)
Bergeron: 17:53 (2:03pk)
10-11 Playoffs
Krejci: 20:07 (0:16pk)
Bergeron: 18:42 (1:45pk)
Why do the Bruins play their #2 centre more than their #1 centre in every situation other than the PK?
TheSilencer
Registered User
Bomber0104
Registered User
I do. The Leafs finished what...last in GA....last in penalty killing. Kessel for all the good he does contributes to that.
Evidently thats our problem.
Bergeron helps fix both of those glaring issues.
Considering scoring goals is the only way to win hockey games, I'd say Kessel contributes a lot.
Bomber0104
Registered User
I don't think scoring goals is the problem for the Leafs, do you? If you look at the numbers, it seems to point out that the Leafs are the worst team in the league for defence. We should fix that. If Kessel can get you a center that brings offence (less than Kessel) but brings a way better defence game (much better than Kessel's) and plays a more important position (center) I dont see why you wouldn't do it.
Bergeron brings a good amount of offence...not as much as Kessel...but everything else he does about 20 times better.
TheSilencer
Registered User
That also tributes to our poor goaltending and defense though. As soft and one dimensional Kessel is, i don't think we can solely blame him for our defensive woes.
Sure, it seems like our GA/Pk will improve with Bergeron in the team. But will it really? i don't think so. Our defense is terribly overrated and we might have the worst goaltending in the league. Just my opinion, anyway.
Voted yes because there wasn't a "maybe" option.
This is a lot closer in terms of value than people think. I think this does a lot of benefit for the Leafs, but I wouldn't do this deal unless there was more coming the Leafs way. Then maybe I'd do it.
This is a lot closer in terms of value than people think. I think this does a lot of benefit for the Leafs, but I wouldn't do this deal unless there was more coming the Leafs way. Then maybe I'd do it.
TheLeastOfTheBunch
Franchise Centre
Bergeron is a good scorer, but IMO not close to what Phil brings. His numbers might've been a bit inflated playing on the Bruins, a team that featured 6 different forwards in the best 30 ES point getters per 60 minutes (5 of them ahead of Phil..Bergeron, Marchand, Seguin, Peverley, Lucic). Bergeron's the much better player in the other facets of the game, but this swap wouldn't necessarily make the Leafs a better team
Probably the same reason why the Sharks' number 2 center has a higher average TOI this year than their number 1.
Bergeron and Krejci are a 1a and 1b tandem. Krejci gets the longer shifts but Bergeron gets more shifts. It's just how Julien chooses to run his lines, which is a lot different than most coaches in the league.
2011-2012 regular season
Bergeron: 45 seconds TOI per shift / 24.8 shifts
Krejci: 51 seconds TOI per shift / 21.5 shifts
2012 playoffs
Krejci: 53 seconds TOI per shift / 24.1 shifts
Bergeron 44 seconds TOI per shift / 26.6 shifts
When you look at overall importance to the team, Bergeron is the number 1 center. Nearly equal offense to Krejci and both have high hockey IQ but a higher end defensive game and a much better faceoff man.
I would trade Kessel for a centre, just not Bergeron. People say trading an impact winger like Kessel will just fill one hole and open up another; but we actually have pretty good winger depth. Lupul would be a good top line RW. Not close to as good as Kessel, but with an actual no 1 defensive centre our offence would be much more balanced. Kessel/Lupul comb was good, but for every goal they scored they were just getting scored on. The centre would have to be capable of being sound defensively and offensive enough to put up around 70 points + signed for two more years. I don't ever see that guy becoming available though. If Getz was re-signed and never hit FA, I would give up Kessel + for him in a second. Bergeron is close but no.
JVR - Trade - Lupul
kulemin - Grabo - Mac
JVR - Trade - Lupul
kulemin - Grabo - Mac
zeke
The Dube Abides
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No, it would have to be a different reason. Because Joe Thornton always gets the most even strength and PP time on the Sharks, and Bergeron never does on the Bruins.
this is the strangest attempt at analysis I've ever seen.
You should probably check out the difference between an average PK shift and an average PP shift.
Then why would their stupid coach play krejci more than the better player?
Gobias Industries
Registered User
So what's your contention: Krejci is a better player than Bergeron, or Julien is a dumb coach.
I disagree with both, what point are you trying to make again?
The answer could be as simple as wanting to control Bergeron's minutes because of the effort he expends during a shift, which watching him play isn't that unreasonable.
Gobias Industries
Registered User
Try to get consensus on that opinion anywhere.
I have to ask at this point if you watch any Bruins games with regularity, because from someone who does, it's a pretty unreasonable view.
The Bruins tend to defy convention in a lot of ways, but their "team" belief has lead them to a cup so it's harder to criticize. So while I would question the same numbers you've posted, there are a myriad of reasons within the context of the style of the team why the minutes are staggered the way they are.
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