Would you trade Kessel for Patrice Bergeron straight up?

[anderson3133]

The Leafs had the 29th worst goals against last year and Bergeron is the reigning Sleke winner as best defensive forward.

You seriously don't see how that is what Leafs need?

If a team wants to win it prefers Bergeron as he is a winner at all levels with WJC Gold, Olympic Gold and a Stanley Cup on his resume.

If a teams wants entertainment and winning is a secondary concern you prefer Kessel, then the results don't matter just the goals he scores.

Boston was 2nd in the league in goals scored last year (269), so why would they want a goal scorer, at the expense of Bergeron? You have it backwards as Kessel is not what the Bruins need.

Perhaps you should review what I've said. Bergeron is not EXACTLY what we need but he is close. Bergeron still plays soft and defensive-mindedness is not what is going to help us get significantly better. We need guys who can bang and bruise while being defensively responsible, otherwise we are making a lateral move at best.

 

[ponder]

I feel pretty confident that Kessel for Bergeron would improve our team significantly right now. We have an excess of quality wingers, but only one particularly good centre (Grabo). Bergeron would really round out our lines:

JVR - Bergeron - Lupul
Kadri - Grabo - Kulemin
Mac - Bozak - Frattin
??? - McClement - Brown (??? is up for grabs between a bunch of players)

We'd actually start to look like a strong 2-way team, that could really kill penalties and control the puck.

HOWEVER, Kessel is younger than Bergeron (25 vs. 27), he doesn't have Bergeron's concussion history, and he's definitely the superior offensive talent. One of the big reasons I think Bergeron would improve us more than Kessel in the present is the current composition of the team (lacking in high end centres and 2-way players, but plenty of good wingers), but we won't necessarily have this composition forever. If Kessel was on a line with really good 2-way players who were talented offensively AND great at retrieving the puck, we'd really see him shine and dominate. I feel like Kessel is probably the slightly better choice for the future IF we can round out the team, though Bergeron is the better choice if you want a guy with a great even strength impact (and a great short handed impact) even on a mediocre team.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

The Leafs had the 29th worst goals against last year and Bergeron is the reigning Sleke winner as best defensive forward.

You seriously don't see how that is what Leafs need?

If a team wants to win it prefers Bergeron as he is a winner at all levels with WJC Gold, Olympic Gold and a Stanley Cup on his resume.

If a teams wants entertainment and winning is a secondary concern you prefer Kessel, then the results don't matter just the goals he scores.

Boston was 2nd in the league in goals scored last year (269), so why would they want a goal scorer, at the expense of Bergeron? You have it backwards as Kessel is not what the Bruins need.

Just to point out, you're trying to paint Bergeron as some "Winner" and a player you need in the playoffs. His numbers are not that good in the playoffs and Kessel's are better, and is PPG in the playoffs.

What the Leafs need is a better defensive system and goaltending over Bergeron.

 

[-DeMo-]

Just to point out, you're trying to paint Bergeron as some "Winner" and a player you need in the playoffs. His numbers are not that good in the playoffs and Kessel's are better, and is PPG in the playoffs.

What the Leafs need is a better defensive system and goaltending over Bergeron.

another poster who thinks offense > Defense which is actually completely backwards. it's alot easier to put up offense when you completely ignore the defensive side of the game like Kessel does alot of the time. besides I don't remember Bergeron being a healthy scratch in the playoffs like Kessel do you?

 

[Jerkini]

The Leafs had the 29th worst goals against last year and Bergeron is the reigning Sleke winner as best defensive forward.

You seriously don't see how that is what Leafs need?

If a team wants to win it prefers Bergeron as he is a winner at all levels with WJC Gold, Olympic Gold and a Stanley Cup on his resume.

If a teams wants entertainment and winning is a secondary concern you prefer Kessel, then the results don't matter just the goals he scores.

Boston was 2nd in the league in goals scored last year (269), so why would they want a goal scorer, at the expense of Bergeron? You have it backwards as Kessel is not what the Bruins need.

The Leafs do need a Bergeron, but not at the cost of Phil Kessel.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

another poster who thinks offense > Defense which is actually completely backwards. it's alot easier to put up offense when you completely ignore the defensive side of the game like Kessel does alot of the time. besides I don't remember Bergeron being a healthy scratch in the playoffs like Kessel do you?

Kessel was a healthy scratch in 4 playoff games at the beginning of his career. Seguin was scratched for half of the playoffs in 2011'. Will they be held against him?

And to say defense is more important than offense is ridiculous.

Kessel played in a defensive system in Boston and thrived: +23, 36 goals, 60 points in only 70- games.

In 2012, defense is becoming terribly overrated. You can teach defense. You can't magically teach someone to be a more talented offensive player.

People look at Kessel and go with the old cliche that he doesn't hit and isn't known for defense, so you can't count on him. Well you know what? The opposite has been true. He's been very good in the playoffs.

 

[Gobias Industries]

Perhaps you should review what I've said. Bergeron is not EXACTLY what we need but he is close. Bergeron still plays soft and defensive-mindedness is not what is going to help us get significantly better. We need guys who can bang and bruise while being defensively responsible, otherwise we are making a lateral move at best.

Sorry, so what centre do you "need"? Seems you're quite particular.

 

[JAMmer124]

We need both, not one or the other. Quite frankly, not even Bergeron would've helped us last year. Our goaltending sucked a big one and our defensive play(from D men) wasn't much better.

 

[leugangen]

I'd trade Lupul for Bergeron. No way would I ever trade Kessel for him.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

Does Bergeron win a Selke in Toronto? No. He wouldn't be as good. Would Kessel do the same in Boston as he does in Toronto? Yes. Absolutely.

Kessel is a young, healthy superstar winger who's a first line talent. Bergeron is a really solid two-way centre, but not a true #1 centre. And to make it worse, another concussion and he'll be done.

Kessel is going to last a very long time in the NHl. He's healthy and his body isn't taking any big knocks. His prime years will last a lot longer. Can you say the same of Begeron?

 

[Gobias Industries]

Kessel was a healthy scratch in 4 playoff games at the beginning of his career. Seguin was scratched for half of the playoffs in 2011'. Will they be held against him?

And to say defense is more important than offense is ridiculous.

Kessel played in a defensive system in Boston and thrived: +23, 36 goals, 60 points in only 70- games.

In 2012, defense is becoming terribly overrated. You can teach defense. You can't magically teach someone to be a more talented offensive player.

People look at Kessel and go with the old cliche that he doesn't hit and isn't known for defense, so you can't count on him. Well you know what? The opposite has been true. He's been very good in the playoffs.

Then how come the Leafs never do?

I don't know how you'd quantify defence being overrated, but I feel like it's almost always underrated.

 

[Gobias Industries]

Does Bergeron win a Selke in Toronto? No. He wouldn't be as good. Would Kessel do the same in Boston as he does in Toronto? Yes. Absolutely.

Kessel is a young, healthy superstar winger who's a first line talent. Bergeron is a really solid two-way centre, but not a true #1 centre. And to make it worse, another concussion and he'll be done.

Kessel is going to last a very long time in the NHl. He's healthy and his body isn't taking any big knocks. His prime years will last a lot longer. Can you say the same of Begeron?

Why?

 

[RogerRoeper*]

Then how come the Leafs never do?

I don't know how you'd quantify defence being overrated, but I feel like it's almost always underrated.

Defensive play is hyped up more by far than it's ever been in the history of the game. True offensive skill is still far more important because you can't teach someone to skate fast or have better passing skills or a great shot.

Ron Wilson's system was a joke. In fact, the last 3 coaches the Leafs have had haven't taught the team strong defensive play. The "Run n' gun" has been the way with this organization since Pat Quinn was hired in 1998'.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

Why?

You put Bergeron with a worse team and Wilson coaching, and goaltending under .900 and he's just not the same. Phil will be a star playing with ANYONE on any team. He's proven that. Guy puts up huge numbers playing with crap.

Trade Kessel for a #1 centre. I'd be ok with that. Bergeron does not fit that description.

 

[Gobias Industries]

You put Bergeron with a worse team and Wilson coaching, and goaltending under .900 and he's just not the same. Phil will be a star playing with ANYONE on any team. He's proven that. Guy puts up huge numbers playing with crap.

Conversely I could say if you put Kessel with Julien's Bruins he would have to sacrifice offence for defence.

Go ahead and cite 2009, but I would say the current iteration of the Bruins is even more defensively sound, especially amongst forwards.

 

[anderson3133]

Sorry, so what centre do you "need"? Seems you're quite particular.

A Kesler, Thornton, Kopitar, Staal, other Staal, Getzlaf, or Toews. Someone who is a battler in the corners and plays a big game. Do you think we need another soft, board-scared player on this roster?

M. Richards too! Love that guy's game.

 

[Gobias Industries]

You put Bergeron with a worse team and Wilson coaching, and goaltending under .900 and he's just not the same. Phil will be a star playing with ANYONE on any team. He's proven that. Guy puts up huge numbers playing with crap.

Trade Kessel for a #1 centre. I'd be ok with that. Bergeron does not fit that description.

I agree that I wouldn't trade Kessel for Bergeron.

 

[-DeMo-]

Kessel was a healthy scratch in 4 playoff games at the beginning of his career. Seguin was scratched for half of the playoffs in 2011'. Will they be held against him?

And to say defense is more important than offense is ridiculous.

Kessel played in a defensive system in Boston and thrived: +23, 36 goals, 60 points in only 70- games.

In 2012, defense is becoming terribly overrated. You can teach defense. You can't magically teach someone to be a more talented offensive player.

People look at Kessel and go with the old cliche that he doesn't hit and isn't known for defense, so you can't count on him. Well you know what? The opposite has been true. He's been very good in the playoffs.

what does Seguin have anything to do with this?

and Kessel hasn't been very good he was a healthy scratch because of his play.

defense is hardly overrated when the last 2 teams to win the cup were among the best defensive teams in the league. and when you consider the last 4 teams alive last year were all in the top 9 and 3 in the top 5, and none of those teams were in the top 10 in offense it's pretty easy to see what is more important...

and why do I hear you can't teach offense that is bs, you can do drills that improve stuff like hand-eye cordination and improve you puck skills, you can also learn the positioning and stuff in the offensive zone so yes Offense can be taught and learned.

when is Kessel gonna learn defense? because he's been terrible since coming to Toronto.

 

[PB37]

Hits =/= Toughness.

Bergeron is seldom seen in the corners as a result of his concussion issues. If I wanted another player like that on the Leafs I would be more than glad to have Bergeron, just not at the expense of Kessel.

Well, there goes your opinion: right out the door. Bergeron is Boston's best forward along the boards and one of the most difficult players in the league to battle for the puck in the corners. He consistently comes out with the puck. He literally does everything for Boston: plays offense, plays defense, 1st unit PP, 1st unit PK, first player to come out holding a lead late, 1st player out when down a goal late. If you don't think Bergeron is tough, then you don't really have a clue what toughness is in relation to hockey.

Boston doesn't need Phil Kessel while Boston needs Bergeron. He is the epitome of what they look for in a player and center. Puts up 60 points, plays an elite brand of two way hockey, is one of the best faceoff men in the league, and a large part of the leadership core here in Boston. If Chara wasn't the Captain, the clear consensus choice would be Bergeron.

If you're looking for a pure scorer, the choice is Kessel. If you're looking for one of the best all around players in the league with leadership capabilities, you look for Bergeron. It's clear which of the two players a Stanley Cup contending team valued more.

 

[anderson3133]

Well, there goes your opinion: right out the door. Bergeron is Boston's best forward along the boards and one of the most difficult players in the league to battle for the puck in the corners. He consistently comes out with the puck. If you don't think Bergeron isn't tough, then you don't really have a clue what toughness is in relation to hockey.

Boston doesn't need Phil Kessel while Boston needs Bergeron. He is the epitome of what they look for in a player and center. Puts up 60 points, plays an elite brand of two way hockey, is one of the best faceoff men in the league, and a large part of the leadership core here in Boston. If Chara wasn't the Captain, the clear consensus choice would be Bergeron.

If you're looking for a pure scorer, the choice is Kessel. If you're looking for one of the best all around players in the league with leadership capabilities, you look for Bergeron. It's clear which of the two players a Stanley Cup contending team valued more.

You're telling me that Bergeron outplays Lucic on the boards?

I've had the unfortunate pleasure of watching many Bruins games as a result of family ties, I know for a fact that Bergeron is not your best player on the boards. You have Marchand and Lucic well ahead of him and I've also seen him pull up from contact in the corners, likely as a precaution of his health concerns.

 

[Gobias Industries]

A Kesler, Thornton, Kopitar, Staal, other Staal, Getzlaf, or Toews. Someone who is a battler in the corners and plays a big game. Do you think we need another soft, board-scared player on this roster?

M. Richards too! Love that guy's game.

Why are you calling Bergeron soft and board-scared. Does that sound like a player that would be top-5 in Selke three years in a row?

 

[-DeMo-]

A Kesler, Thornton, Kopitar, Staal, other Staal, Getzlaf, or Toews. Someone who is a battler in the corners and plays a big game. Do you think we need another soft, board-scared player on this roster?M. Richards too! Love that guy's game.

that is an absolutely ridicoulous statement when your talking about Bergeron and I'm questioning how much you watch him. Bergeron is not a soft board-scared players. I'm sorry it's not possible to be a great defensive center and have those qualties...

 

[Warden of the North]

No. I would trade a lot of other assets for an elite 1C to play with Kessel.

 

[dredeye]

Yeah, no.

Patrice Bergeron is a great player...and I'd love to have this guy on the Leafs because he's an extremely hard worker, great defensively, and an all round player but if you give up Kessel for Bergeron, you not only lose your elite scoring threat...the offense that Bergeron would produce would be drastically less because there is no Lucic, or Seguin to help on offense.

Lucic is the biggest factor here...the amount of space that this guy opens up for his linemates is ridiculous...even when Lucic isn't scoring, he's still a player that teams have to keep under control.

Bergeron = best center we'd have since Sundin. In short...our D gets better but our offense takes a HUGE dip.

Krejci centers Lucic not Bergeron.

 

[mapleleaf979]

No. I would trade a lot of other assets for an elite 1C to play with Kessel.

I agree with this.