To be fair, Kessel had a monstrous season and the Leafs finished 13th in our conference. Would it really make any difference if we finished dead last, except for a better draft pick? Kessel is a weapon, but the leafs aren't even in the fight.
Would you trade Kessel for Patrice Bergeron straight up?
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To be fair, Kessel had a monstrous season and the Leafs finished 13th in our conference. Would it really make any difference if we finished dead last, except for a better draft pick? Kessel is a weapon, but the leafs aren't even in the fight.
anderson3133
Registered User
Not with 22 goal scorer Patrice Bergeron on the case
I think people also forget that Patrice is just a small cog in the well maintained machine that is the Boston Bruins. In the 06-07 season Phil Kessel had a better +/- than the 'defensive stalwart'.
Gobias Industries
Registered User
Not with 22 goal scorer Patrice Bergeron on the case
I think people also forget that Patrice is just a small cog in the well maintained machine that is the Boston Bruins. In the 06-07 season Phil Kessel had a better +/- than the 'defensive stalwart'.
Selke winners are seldomly small cogs.
Not with 22 goal scorer Patrice Bergeron on the case
I think people also forget that Patrice is just a small cog in the well maintained machine that is the Boston Bruins. In the 06-07 season Phil Kessel had a better +/- than the 'defensive stalwart'.
Small cog? In that case Kessel is just a small cog in our very poorly maintained machine, is he not?
Bergeron led Boston's forwards in icetime, as did Kessel for us.
anderson3133
Registered User
He's had two seasons where he has had a +/- of greater than 10. Not exactly note-worthy.
No.
If Bergeron didn't have those injury setbacks and was producing offensively like he was back around the last lockout, I would do it without thinking twice.
At this point though, he's probably a 1B centre and it just wouldn't be worth making the deal. We fill a hole on our roster by creating a hole. Not to mention the optics of trading Kessel back to the Bruins.
If Bergeron didn't have those injury setbacks and was producing offensively like he was back around the last lockout, I would do it without thinking twice.
At this point though, he's probably a 1B centre and it just wouldn't be worth making the deal. We fill a hole on our roster by creating a hole. Not to mention the optics of trading Kessel back to the Bruins.
anderson3133
Registered User
So we can just assume away the difference that is Zdeno Chara?
Look, the easiest way to compare players is by equating them in some aspect. What better way to do so than to look at when they played together?
Should a Selke winner not easily have a higher +/- than a sophomore on the same team?
Gobias Industries
Registered User
I hope you enjoy citing +/-, it's rarely indicative of the full story.
He's finished top-5 in Selke voting the last three years, I think that's enough to conclude he's more than a cog. More accurately he's among the best two-way players in the league.
anderson3133
Registered User
It's funny how often +/- gets brought up whenever discussion of Kessel and Lupul takes place but heaven forbid it occur when comparing Kessel to another player.
Again, I'm not doubting Bergeron's talent or his ability to play defensively. I'm suggesting that having Chara doesn't exactly hurt his +/- and defensive responsibilities, does it?
Gobias Industries
Registered User
redbull
Boss
- Mar 24, 2008
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bergeron wouldn't be effective on this leaf team, especially without kessel.
Dump on Kessel all you want, the guy can outright score. Surround him with the right players and the whole team gets better, WITH Kessel as a key contributor, not as a support player.
I think Bergeron's a very good player, can do a lot of things well, but he's nowhere close to Kessel in overall impact on the ice.
Dump on Kessel all you want, the guy can outright score. Surround him with the right players and the whole team gets better, WITH Kessel as a key contributor, not as a support player.
I think Bergeron's a very good player, can do a lot of things well, but he's nowhere close to Kessel in overall impact on the ice.
anderson3133
Registered User
+/- is not why Bergeron won the Selke and regularly finishes high in the voting, so fixating on that isn't actually making any sort of point. His +/- from six years ago...do I really need to address this?
Not with 22 goal scorer Patrice Bergeron on the case
I think people also forget that Patrice is just a small cog in the well maintained machine that is the Boston Bruins. In the 06-07 season Phil Kessel had a better +/- than the 'defensive stalwart'.
Didn't the Kessel-line face the Bergy-line 6 times the last season?
Bergy 6p +7
Kessel 3p -11
I think he is, it's just a very different kind of impact. And lest we underrate Bergeron, he did score 30 goals and 73 points in his second NHL season. Kessel had 3 more assists than Bergeron last year, and Kessel's career high in assists is actually lower than Bergeron's.
anderson3133
Registered User
You missed the point and perhaps you're lost.
Let me help you: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15
waingr0
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- May 14, 2010
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Having Chara and an overall better team has nothing to do with those stats I guess.
anderson3133
Registered User
So you can dismiss +/- from 6 years ago but Patrice's points from 7 years ago are fair game?
Gobias Industries
Registered User
So you can dismiss +/- from 6 years ago but Patrice's points from 7 years ago are fair game?
Certainly not a true double standard, and not worthy of a laugh.
Points will always be more indicative of an individuals play versus the team stat that +/- is.
So you can dismiss +/- from 6 years ago but Patrice's points from 7 years ago are fair game?
+/- from six years ago have what exactly to do with how good he is currently considered to be defensively?
The points he scored 7 years ago are relevant to a discussion of his offensive capabilities. Unless you think he's a worse center now than he was in his second NHL season?
anderson3133
Registered User
There also exists instances of "outliers". Patrice Bergeron has scored 30 goals or more once in his career (10%) while Kessel has done so four times in his career (66%).
anderson3133
Registered User
Certainly it could be stated that Bergeron's defensive capacity has come at the expense of scoring. However, it would be near negligent to dismiss the couple of years where you could actually hold a ceteris paribus experiment.
If you want to present that as an "outlier" when he's been close to that point pace in two other seasons, then what do you consider Kessel's production last season? His next closest season was 18 points less.
Kessel has had over 35 assists once in his career (16.7%) while Bergeron has done so four times in his career. See how that works?
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