Would you trade Kessel for Patrice Bergeron straight up?

[anderson3133]

If you want to present that as an "outlier" when he's been close to that point pace in two other seasons, then what do you consider Kessel's production last season? His next closest season was 18 points less.

Kessel has had over 35 assists once in his career (16.7%) while Bergeron has done so four times in his career. See how that works?

Absolutely. I'm not the one saying that Patrice Bergeron is on the cusp of greatness because of a season that occurred 7 years ago.

Kessel hasn't even played 7 seasons.

 

[Mess]

Just throwing in here that Bergeron is the reigning Selke winner..

Selke Winners are seldom traded as teams use them to win Stanley Cups with. So when you have the what is considered one of the best 2-way forwards in the game, you have little desire to deal him.

There is also a reason Team Canada selected him, and won Gold in the last Olympics.

Besides a playmaking Centre has more value in trade than a goal scoring winger because the position is considered more vital to team success. Taking key face-offs and killing penalties are just as big a part of a winning team as goal scoring is.

 

[Brozak]

Oh man. No more deals with Boston please. PLEASE. It's bad enough they have Seguin and Hamilton. Giving them back Kessel for Bergeron makes zero sense.

Enough of that! Bergeron is a great player, but let's find talent elsewhere... for pride's sake. COME ON.

 

[anderson3133]

Selke Winners are seldom traded as teams use them to win Stanley Cups with. So when you have the what is considered one of the best 2-way forwards in the game, you have little desire to deal him.

There is also a reason Team Canada selected him, and won Gold in the last Olympics.

Besides a playmaking Centre has more value in trade than a goal scoring winger because the position is considered more vital to team success. Taking key face-offs and killing penalties are just as big a part of a winning team as goal scoring is.

Troy Murray, Doug Jarvis, Dave Poulin, Guy Carbonneau, Ron Francis, and Mike Peca.

22 Total Individual players have won the Selke to date, of which only 18 were Centres and 6 of those 18 (33%) were traded shortly after their Selke win. Most of the remaining 12 were near the end of their careers.

33% seems a tad high for something "seldom".

 

[Hurt]

He's had two seasons where he has had a +/- of greater than 10. Not exactly note-worthy.

Selke Winner. Harp about his +/- all you want, in the defensive aspect of the game, he blows all our forwards out of the water.

With that said, would I trade him for Kessel? Probably not. It'd leave a hole on our team but I think he'd be a great piece to have on our 2nd line.

 

[Morbo]

Not a chance I trade Phil Kessel for Bergeron.

 

[anderson3133]

Selke Winner. Harp about his +/- all you want, in the defensive aspect of the game, he blows all our forwards out of the water.

With that said, would I trade him for Kessel? Probably not. It'd leave a hole on our team but I think he'd be a great piece to have on our 2nd line.

Absolutely. Bergeron is a great player, as I've stated multiple times, but he isn't what this team needs and he definitely isn't worth a Kessel.

If Bergeron was larger and played meaner this would be a discussion worth having.

 

[bunjay]

Absolutely. I'm not the one saying that Patrice Bergeron is on the cusp of greatness because of a season that occurred 7 years ago.

Kessel hasn't even played 7 seasons.

Cusp of greatness? Nobody said that. You're saying that Bergeron's defensive game is coming at the expense of offensive production. You're right in that he plays PK and thus loses the opportunity to rack up PP points. But you're wrong in any other way, as Bergeron's production is back on an upward trend and has never been less than respectable. His career PPG is higher than Kessels, and thats with coming back from a concussion that might have been career-ending.

 

[anderson3133]

Cusp of greatness? Nobody said that. You're saying that Bergeron's defensive game is coming at the expense of offensive production. You're right in that he plays PK and thus loses the opportunity to rack up PP points. But you're wrong in any other way, as Bergeron's production is back on an upward trend and has never been less than respectable. His career PPG is higher than Kessels, and thats with coming back from a concussion that might have been career-ending.

Kessel's points are also upward trending without the high risk of concussions which could be career-ending. When have Kessel's points been less than respectable? And when did coming back from cancer become less impressive than coming back from a concussion?

 

[bunjay]

Kessel's points are also upward trending without the high risk of concussions which could be career-ending. When have Kessel's points been less than respectable?

Where are these questions even coming from? I did not suggest that Kessel's points have eve rbeen less than respectable. You suggested via their comparative goalscoring that Bergeron is some huge step down from Kessel offensively. Which he in fact is not. I used the exact same comparison for assists that you did for goals to show the exact opposite of what you were saying.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

bergeron wouldn't be effective on this leaf team, especially without kessel.

Dump on Kessel all you want, the guy can outright score. Surround him with the right players and the whole team gets better, WITH Kessel as a key contributor, not as a support player.

I think Bergeron's a very good player, can do a lot of things well, but he's nowhere close to Kessel in overall impact on the ice.

No chance.

 

[anderson3133]

Where are these questions even coming from? I did not suggest that Kessel's points have eve rbeen less than respectable. You suggested via their comparative goalscoring that Bergeron is some huge step down from Kessel offensively. Which he in fact is not. I used the exact same comparison for assists that you did for goals to show the exact opposite of what you were saying.

My mistake. I was under the impression that you were using those statements to suggest that Bergeron was much better offensively than Kessel.

 

[bunjay]

My mistake. I was under the impression that you were using those statements to suggest that Bergeron was much better offensively than Kessel.

One might have been able to argue that before the 11-12 season, but Kessel has officially broken out as everyone knew he would. So haters can no longer talk about "hasn't even scored 70 points" anymore.


I believe Rick Nash is up next to escape that bull

 

[RogerRoeper*]

82 points with Tyler Bozak as his centre... How many players could do that in the NHL?

You think people in hockey are going on about Bergeron's defensive brilliance if he plays on this Leafs team under Ron Wilson?

It would be insanity to trade Kessel for Bergeron. Kessel has missed 0 games since joining the Leafs. 0. Bergeron is one big hit away from retiring.


Kessel is criminally underrated.

 

[JSn0w93]

No. Bergeron is a great two way C, but I'll stick with Kessel. Very few players can bring the type of production Kessel does with mediocre support. Explosive skater with one of the best shots in the game.

 

[Liminality]

Selke Winners are seldom traded as teams use them to win Stanley Cups with. So when you have the what is considered one of the best 2-way forwards in the game, you have little desire to deal him.

There is also a reason Team Canada selected him, and won Gold in the last Olympics.

Besides a playmaking Centre has more value in trade than a goal scoring winger because the position is considered more vital to team success. Taking key face-offs and killing penalties are just as big a part of a winning team as goal scoring is.

So would you trade Kessel for him?

 

[-DeMo-]

Absolutely. Bergeron is a great player, as I've stated multiple times, but he isn't what this team needs and he definitely isn't worth a Kessel.

If Bergeron was larger and played meaner this would be a discussion worth having.

actually Bergeron is exactly what this team needs, maybe not at the expense of Kessel but that is the exact type of player this team desperately needs

 

[bunjay]

82 points with Tyler Bozak as his centre... How many players could do that in the NHL?

You think people in hockey are going on about Bergeron's defensive brilliance if he plays on this Leafs team under Ron Wilson?

It would be insanity to trade Kessel for Bergeron. Kessel has missed 0 games since joining the Leafs. 0. Bergeron is one big hit away from retiring.


Kessel is criminally underrated.

Bozak was irrelevant. It was Kessel and Lupul with whoever, a placeholder. In terms of doing something with nothing I think the 10-11 season is actually more impressive.

 

[bunjay]

actually Bergeron is exactly what this team needs, maybe not at the expense of Kessel but that is the exact type of player this team desperately needs

Couldn't agree more. Swapping one for the other is a sideways move but god does this team ever need a Bergeron. Put bozak on the third line where he belongs, Kessel gets to play with a defensively sound center who can actually keep up offensively as well....droool.

 

[charliolemieux]

Would you trade an ounce of Gold for an ounce of Silver?

 

[RogerRoeper*]

Bozak was irrelevant. It was Kessel and Lupul with whoever, a placeholder. In terms of doing something with nothing I think the 10-11 season is actually more impressive.

Point is, he didn't get help from a centre.

The season before I'd argue his 32 goals, 64 points with a worse Bozak and Crabb was incredibly impressive.

 

[Al14]

Hell no...

Unless, two 1sts and a 2nd are included with Bergeron.

Wait... maybe not!

 

[RogerRoeper*]

Selke Winners are seldom traded as teams use them to win Stanley Cups with. So when you have the what is considered one of the best 2-way forwards in the game, you have little desire to deal him.

There is also a reason Team Canada selected him, and won Gold in the last Olympics.

Besides a playmaking Centre has more value in trade than a goal scoring winger because the position is considered more vital to team success. Taking key face-offs and killing penalties are just as big a part of a winning team as goal scoring is.

Depends on the centre and winger. In this case, absolutely not.

 

[-DeMo-]

Point is, he didn't get help from a centre.

The season before I'd argue his 32 goals, 64 points with a worse Bozak and Crabb was incredibly impressive.

Crabb was on his line for about 20 games the other 60ish games he played with Lupul, Versteeg and a mix of Kulemin/MacArthur.

 

[Mess]

Absolutely. Bergeron is a great player, as I've stated multiple times, but he isn't what this team needs and he definitely isn't worth a Kessel.

The Leafs had the 29th worst goals against last year and Bergeron is the reigning Sleke winner as best defensive forward.

You seriously don't see how that is what Leafs need?

If a team wants to win it prefers Bergeron as he is a winner at all levels with WJC Gold, Olympic Gold and a Stanley Cup on his resume.

If a teams wants entertainment and winning is a secondary concern you prefer Kessel, then the results don't matter just the goals he scores.

Boston was 2nd in the league in goals scored last year (269), so why would they want a goal scorer, at the expense of Bergeron? You have it backwards as Kessel is not what the Bruins need.