Would You Guarantee Dubas' Job For 2022-23 If It Meant Holding On To Our Futures?

[hotpaws]

No history of trading them, 100% history of giving a sequence of highish value bridges then seeing them leave at UFA time

30 plus yrs as a GM and your going to get a few walking but i'd like to know who your talking about

Nieds was 32 when he left so i wouldn't include him .

Parise was 28 and i'd consider NJ lucky he left especially cnsidering the deal he signed .

funny thing is Mathews can walk at 27 , Marner and Willie at 28 so i have no idea how long you think Dubas has our top kids locked in for before they can walk

 

[ToneDog]

30 plus yrs as a GM and your going to get a few walking but i'd like to know who your talking about

Nieds was 32 when he left and so i wouldn't include him .

Parise was 28 and i'd consider NJ lucky he left especially cnsidering the deal he signed .

funny thing is Mathews can walk at 27 , Marner and Willie at 28 so i have no idea how long you think Dubas has our top kids locked in for before they can walk

The fact that they left NJ had nothing to do with it.

 

[myleafs]

It's shocking how fast some fans turned on babs. Starting to look more and more like he wasn't the problem.

yea he was still a problem

 

[ToneDog]

yea he was still a problem

Babs was a prick but he knew what was needed to win in the playoffs. Dubas and Keefe have no clue.

 

[Stephen]

It's shocking how fast some fans turned on babs. Starting to look more and more like he wasn't the problem.

He was still a problem for the personnel they had. But that's not to say he wouldn't fit another program better with different people. Just like the fact that we still have elite players. But the mix isn't working.

But one of my concerns with firing Babcock is you'd be putting the power into the hands of the young players. Even if Babcock's messaging was completely wrong, he still knew what the road to get to a championship was... As of this past year, we had a GM that was younger than the coach and a coach younger than one his players, who has not won either. That's pretty weird.

 

[Dreakmur]

Well thank god you're here to set us all straight....us common folk is soo stoopids whenz we bee thinkings onzar owns.

Everything is good, but we still don't win... tough to explain that away....

 

[Dekes For Days]

So at the conclusion of the 2017 NHL Draft, the last one before Dubas took over, the Leafs were actually ranked pretty high with guys who hadn't been promoted to full time status:
At the conclusion of the 2020 draft, they're ranked much lower.

Not sure bleacher report is the definitive source you seem to think it is, but the much bigger issue here is the fact that you chose to use a ranking from 2017 (almost a year before Dubas was hired), largely driven by players put into the prospect pool pre-Lou, who were not in the prospect pool when Dubas got there, and comparing it to a 2020 ranking (almost a year ago), that also, contrary to what you claimed, came before the 2020 draft (you know, that draft where we did very well and picked 12 times).

 

[Dekes For Days]

Vancouver, Calgary, and Ottawa are all bottom-10 teams

That's not substantiated by anything.

Only because you're looking at the past pools with the benefit of hindsight.

No, hindsight is not being used here.

That evaluation is still based on hope.

No, that's based on the present.

That's a really impressive pool

Not sure why you're talking about a collection of pools 20 years ago, and the overselling is quite funny, but there were some decent prospects in there, and NHLers were produced, even with a questionable development system. So not really sure what you think your point is.

 

[Dreakmur]

That's not substantiated by anything.

For somebody that just wants a mathematical formula, there isn't.

No, hindsight is not being used here.

No, that's based on the present.

Not sure why you're talking about a collection of pools 20 years ago, and the overselling is quite funny, but there were some decent prospects in there, and NHLers were produced, even with a questionable development system. So not really sure what you think your point is.

I brought that group up as an example of good prospects not working out, and you claimed that our current group was better. Were you even alive in 2001?

Which of our current prospects is on par with the 3 guys who played as under-agers on contending WJC teams?

My point is you're looking at the current prospect pool in a very hopeful manner. None of them have failed yet, so they all look great. That's the inevitable cycle of prospects, but I guess you just haven't been around long enough to see the repetition.

 

[Notsince67]

Lou was a goof. Dubas needs to come clean about what went wrong in his opinion. There has to be some level of accountability.
The team needs a decisive smart gm.
Not zaitsev smart or penny smart dollar stupid schedule b bonus smart...not bad contract negotiating smart...just smart.

 

[Bluelines]

Not only that, but he's considerate enough to answer each question from a reporter by answering them by name in his response. For those egomaniacs in the media that's all they need to give him a pass

Indeed he has good manners... that is good in church and the dinner table.

 

[Bluelines]

I'm more worried about them being pressured into doing something really stupid and turning this iteration of the Leafs into the '96 Leafs or the '06 Leafs. Does anyone want another decade of picking 10-13 every year but never making the playoffs?

Those who fail to learn from the past are bound to repeat it. It's not a tough game to build a good team, it is a tough game to convince GM's that trading everything in their farm system and draft schmaft is not the best thig to do for your pro team. If anything he should be adding young, skilled talent and developing it for when Marner, Matthews and Nylander all leave. the sad thing is most GM's know they have a shelf life of 4 to 8 years. Very few make it to year 9. Dubas knows this and will do stupid shit to preserve his job...which will inevitably be the reason why he loses his job.

 

[Mugzy97]

You said anyone with a brain would sign all 3.....but would they sign all 3 for 11 million? Because nobody has done that. Not even 2 at that cost. Your implying that our 3 guys are so much better than any other teams top 3 guys that we had to pay them all top of the league dollar, because no other team has 3 players that match up to the quality of our 3 players?

Yes anyone with a brain would sign them to those contracts. They’re exceptional players. You pay them what they’re worth. This idea that Dubas ruined the team by eating up cap on elite players has no merit. To have good players you need to pay them.

 

[Racer88]

Lou was a goof. Dubas needs to come clean about what went wrong in his opinion. There has to be some level of accountability.
The team needs a decisive smart gm.
Not zaitsev smart or penny smart dollar stupid schedule b bonus smart...not bad contract negotiating smart...just smart.

I could get on board with this reasoning

 

[All Mod Cons]

I question some of Dubas' decisions. But it seems a lot of posters don't recognize that it's not his fault Mitch and Auston have not translated their regular season high point totals into post-season point totals.

I blame more the players than Dubas at this point for not giving a shit. If he fails to change this mindset by not shipping out players that don't give a shit, then yes, that's on him and should be let go.

It never seems to be Kyle's fault. Apparently he did everything right and has just been unlucky all his decisions have backfired. If we're to believe the Dubas fan club we have the most unlucky GM in the NHL. I'm not sure that's the best idea. I'd prefer a GM who has a tiny bit of luck.

 

[Notsince67]

It never seems to be Kyle's fault. Apparently he did everything right and has just been unlucky all his decisions have backfired. If we're to believe the Dubas fan club we have the most unlucky GM in the NHL. I'm not sure that's the best idea. I'd prefer a GM who has a tiny bit of luck.

On this forum , people love to jump around to scarlett letter one person or another for social props. I am no fan of Dubas but I have often had issues with Leaf GM's as a fan.
On the issue of luck, we all need to look in the mirror because its quite obvious we are all cursed.
Guaranteed...if the NYI organization and the Leafs organization swapped cities...The NY Leafs would win the cup the following year and the Toronto Islanders wouldnt make it into the playoffs.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yes anyone with a brain would sign them to those contracts. They’re exceptional players. You pay them what they’re worth. This idea that Dubas ruined the team by eating up cap on elite players has no merit. To have good players you need to pay them.

Don't be ridiculous.

 

[Dreakmur]

Yes anyone with a brain would sign them to those contracts. They’re exceptional players. You pay them what they’re worth. This idea that Dubas ruined the team by eating up cap on elite players has no merit. To have good players you need to pay them.

So why doesn’t he team repeatedly fail? Good contracts for great players, but still can’t build a contender…

 

[Trapper]

It never seems to be Kyle's fault. Apparently he did everything right and has just been unlucky all his decisions have backfired. If we're to believe the Dubas fan club we have the most unlucky GM in the NHL. I'm not sure that's the best idea. I'd prefer a GM who has a tiny bit of luck.

An individual that doesn’t perform post season or lacks the ability to evolve their game into the postseason isn’t the fault of Dubas.

What is his fault is to keep going on and on with it and hoping for a different result. One time, twice, ok. 3 times, going on 4, still the same issues, not ok.

Also paying 3 forwards franchise money was his plan. Many of us said bad idea. Not our call. Marner didn’t pay the other 3. He just took all he could get.

Seeing that the cap will remain flat to alter his plan and not changing, his fault.

Running through depth, trading away picks to support the above not performing, his fault.

The success of team is all on him. You can’t be a buddy, you don’t make promises and not one player is bigger than the team.

 

[horner]

I really think to build a playoff team you need a new president GM and coach .
You need new management with a clear mind and no connection to these players .
Big changes need to be made .

 

[Dekes For Days]

For somebody that just wants a mathematical formula, there isn't.

Didn't say anything about a mathematical formula. Just maybe don't make claims based on nothing.

I brought that group up as an example of good prospects not working out

Then other issues with what you did aside, it's a pretty bad example that contradicts your position, because multiple of those prospects worked out.

My point is you're looking at the current prospect pool in a very hopeful manner. None of them have failed yet, so they all look great.

That's not true at all. The only one letting hindsight warp their perception here is you. This has nothing to do with "hope". This is simply about the current prospect pool, relative to the state of the prospect pool at other points in time.

 

[JEI]

I really think to build a playoff team you need a new president GM and coach .
You need new management with a clear mind and no connection to these players .
Big changes need to be made .

Is this post from 5 years ago?

 

[Stephen]

It never seems to be Kyle's fault. Apparently he did everything right and has just been unlucky all his decisions have backfired. If we're to believe the Dubas fan club we have the most unlucky GM in the NHL. I'm not sure that's the best idea. I'd prefer a GM who has a tiny bit of luck.

What’s frustrating about following a lot of Dubas’ work is how his moves can all be understood and rationalized while they happen in real time. The man on the street understands what he’s trying to do in every instance. But so often it seems to be missing that insight that guys within an organization should know better.

For example. Garrett Sparks was a championship AHL goalie but he didn’t have an NHL level technical game or ability to see the ice. That was obvious after a handful of NHL games. But wouldn’t you have a better grasp of the situation if you’re the organization grooming him for many years and what his limitations are?

Re-signing Andreas Johnsson. Sure, ok. Lock it in while it’s cheap. But if you’re able to assess in house what his real abilities and upside are, why did we we lock him up at a Connor Brown + price and then have to let Brown go?

Getting grit and grind. Sure, Thornton and Simmonds have a reputation. But are we just getting random name guys? Even going back to the time of the signing people said, why Thornton when you have Spezza doing the same thing but half a decade younger? Not the end of the world but not the most effective. I don’t even want to get into Corey Perry.

Dumpster diving on Galchenyuk and Vesey. I like this strategy and I’m on board with it. But is a Stanley Cup aspirant asking for too much to try and get value from spare parts on the Senators and Sabres? Why didn’t we go after a Carter Verhaeghe who played a good third and fourth line role on the most recent Stanley Cup run? What is driving this selection process that doesn’t factor in prior team success?

In short, I find him to be rational, clever, intelligent and even creative in his process. But maybe not armed with that additional layer of insight to really get the right fit. And it blows up and is “bad luck.”

 

[ToneDog]

It never seems to be Kyle's fault. Apparently he did everything right and has just been unlucky all his decisions have backfired. If we're to believe the Dubas fan club we have the most unlucky GM in the NHL. I'm not sure that's the best idea. I'd prefer a GM who has a tiny bit of luck.

You mean like Lou ?? Or does he have too much luck ??

 

[nuck]

You mean like Lou ?? Or does he have too much luck ??

Lou is Lou. Who knows what antics he would have gotten into if he had stayed? I feel only confidant that he would not have had Keefe as a coach. I don't think its a luck thing with KD, just he has been learning on the job. Contracts 101 oops. Soft all-dangle team oops. No playoff depth oops. All things a more experienced GM would have already seen and if Kyle ends up with a new club next season the Leafs have already paid his dues and he knows that stuff now. This playoff was sort of JT in that they should have won in 5 or 6 with him in the lineup but still should have won without him. So the current oops is clearly Keefe and how long Dubas takes to figure that out may be his final decision with the club.

Any discussion about Dubas or management shouldn't be about Lou, but rather how much better or worse would any GM be with Kadri, Rielly and the big 3 as a starting point along with unlimited MLSE resources? Does anybody think they would seriously be a non playoff team? Does anyone think that winning one round is an achievement only the best organizations can ever aspire to? The bar has been set pretty low here but it isn't like they still have six years to tinker with this lineup. Yet the year end presser tells me they are hoping the Groundhog Day approach will win out.

Shanny just needs to grow a pair to protect the Leaf's futures. All the "oops" above come back to Shanahan for selecting the rookie GM and he is doubling down now or else he looks like an fool as the playoff losses are currently not a string of failures but rather "building". I don't think Dubas needs Keefe returning for the club to win but it might take Shanahan to step in and make another coaching switch.

Its either the lineup or its the coach and if Dubas has built a solid lineup, then it pretty clear who didn't deliver. Just admit its one of those things and move on with it.