Would You Guarantee Dubas' Job For 2022-23 If It Meant Holding On To Our Futures?

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Indeed he has good manners... that is good in church and the dinner table.

Isn't it amazing that people get so impressed by fluff? Who cares if he is an A-hole and gets the job done? I don't care if his table manners are superb.

 

[Mopar]

Dubas should be fired.

Give Shanahan a chance to fix his mistake of handing the keys to this team to a rookie GM and letting Lou walk.

Dubas is out of chances. We have 3 picks in the upcoming draft and we haven't won a playoff round in 17 years. On top of that, we're in serious cap trouble. Dubas banked on the cap going up year after year and guessed wrong. He got absolutely bent over with the RFA signings. Look at the players out VS players in since he's been in charge. He's not good at his job. Fire him.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Dubas should be fired.

Give Shanahan a chance to fix his mistake of handing the keys to this team to a rookie GM and letting Lou walk.

Dubas is out of chances. We have 3 picks in the upcoming draft and we haven't won a playoff round in 17 years. On top of that, we're in serious cap trouble. Dubas banked on the cap going up year after year and guessed wrong. He got absolutely bent over with the RFA signings. Look at the players out VS players in since he's been in charge. He's not good at his job. Fire him.

LOL you don't "guess" there is going to be a global pandemic.

 

[Dreakmur]

LOL you don't "guess" there is going to be a global pandemic.

That's right, nobody saw it coming, but it's actually tough to really determine the impact on teams.

Yes, the flat cap reduced the amount of cap space available to teams... but that also reduced the amount of money free agents could demand. More cap space could have just resulted in the same teams signing the same guys, but for more money.

 

[ToneDog]

LOL you don't "guess" there is going to be a global pandemic.

You can blame Dubas for a lot of things but not the pandemic but maxing out the cap by overpaying not 1, not 2 but 3 RFAs who have proven they can't get it done and banking on the cap rising enough to add significant pieces does not sound like a good plan. I mean the cap was projected to rise a couple of million prior to the pandemic. That's not enough to get you what this team needs.

 

[Mopar]

LOL you don't "guess" there is going to be a global pandemic.

He assumed it would keep going up. The pandemic was unforeseeable. But he gambled and lost.

"We can and we will." Yup.....aged like milk.

How stupid does he look now? JFJ 2.0. This franchise keeps shooting itself in the foot with bad decisions. Finally when it looked like there was promise and everything was trending in the right direction, we make a major tactical error in regards to key personnel. Again.

 

[deprw]

He assumed it would keep going up. The pandemic was unforeseeable. But he gambled and lost.

"We can and we will." Yup.....aged like milk.

How stupid does he look now? JFJ 2.0. This franchise keeps shooting itself in the foot with bad decisions. Finally when it looked like there was promise and everything was trending in the right direction, we make a major tactical error in regards to key personnel. Again.

Basicly everyone assumed. All big money contract (McDavid, Doughty, Tavares, Matthews, Marner) are built on that it will rise. Capitals made same "gamble" with Ovechkin and Penguins with Crosby & Malkin. Without pandemic leagues income would have gone up and cap would have been closer to 90mil in few years.

Every GM who wants success maxes out cap.

Problem is that we maxed out with three high paid forwards. Though after Sundin left we were chasing after that center who could match best of the league. Now we have two and Marner.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

He assumed it would keep going up. The pandemic was unforeseeable. But he gambled and lost.

Literally everything is a gamble. You want to tell someone to never drive a car because there is a risk of them dying? You want to tell a small business owner to never take out loans to grow their business because there is a chance it never works out? Both are significantly more likely of happening than that pandemic, yet people do it all the time. And you know what, a lot of small businesses lost everything even though there were some who were doing quite well before the pandemic. That is the nature of life, even if you are ridiculously privileged.

If a GM in 2018 went into negotiations with anyone and said "I know the cap is going up and everyone else pays their players according but I won't because there may be this freak occurrence that causes it to not go up so I won't pay you like everyone else", those agents would laugh in your face. Your ass would probably be fired too because you would not have been able to keep anyone.

 

[4thline]

30 plus yrs as a GM and your going to get a few walking but i'd like to know who your talking about

Nieds was 32 when he left so i wouldn't include him .

Parise was 28 and i'd consider NJ lucky he left especially cnsidering the deal he signed .

funny thing is Mathews can walk at 27 , Marner and Willie at 28 so i have no idea how long you think Dubas has our top kids locked in for before they can walk

Parise- sub Nylander young player (48 in scoring over 2 full elc seasons vs 128, worse draft pedigree)
Result- 4 year + 1 year contracts combining to current equivalent of 6x5, departs to UFA.
Contract not meaningfully better, player leaves as soon as possible

Gomez- Prime age 1C
Result- two 1 year bridges (current equivalent 4.6 and 9.25), departs to UFA
Squeezes over 2 seasons, second of which is still quite expensive ,player leaves as soon as possible

Zajac 1- young 2C coming off a breakout 60 point season
Result- 4 year bridge (5.5m eq.) that takes him right to UFA

Zajac 2- prime age 2C, coming off back to back seasons combining 26 points in 63 games
Result- big ole long term extension @ equivalent of 7.3
Player has not broken 50 points on the contract, 3 times under 30 points

Barzal- young 1C
Result-7m x 3

Did decent on Kadri and Rielly, but neither had really broken out yet, Kadri had already been bridged once if not twice.


Hell he was ready to walk away from Anders Lee until Panarin balked him and he had to circle back. If Lou followed his MO we'd likely be either in or 1 year out from our *2nd* contentious set of negotiations with whichever kids were still here. Yes, we only got 5 and 6 years from them as it is, but 5-6 years in one shot is a lot more likely to see them kept long term than a penny pinching series of 1's- 2's -3's and a constant media circus. Maybe he would have been right to strong arm them an try to compete with them cheap during team control then walk away, time will tell. But given their demonstrated mindsets his approach would mix like oil and water.

 

[Trapper]

You can blame Dubas for a lot of things but not the pandemic but maxing out the cap by overpaying not 1, not 2 but 3 RFAs who have proven they can't get it done and banking on the cap rising enough to add significant pieces does not sound like a good plan. I mean the cap was projected to rise a couple of million prior to the pandemic. That's not enough to get you what this team needs.

The pandemic happened. You can’t predict it, but you can react to it. Obviously the original plan is now an issue to the viability of the team.

If you are driving down the road and it floods, that’s not your fault. If you keep driving into it, your fault.

 

[ToneDog]

The pandemic happened. You can’t predict it, but you can react to it. Obviously the original plan is now an issue to the viability of the team.

If you are driving down the road and it floods, that’s not your fault. If you keep driving into it, your fault.

Just read another post that you do not trade elite talent and we should wait for the cap to go back up.

 

[Mopar]

Literally everything is a gamble. You want to tell someone to never drive a car because there is a risk of them dying? You want to tell a small business owner to never take out loans to grow their business because there is a chance it never works out? Both are significantly more likely of happening than that pandemic, yet people do it all the time. And you know what, a lot of small businesses lost everything even though there were some who were doing quite well before the pandemic. That is the nature of life, even if you are ridiculously privileged.

If a GM in 2018 went into negotiations with anyone and said "I know the cap is going up and everyone else pays their players according but I won't because there may be this freak occurrence that causes it to not go up so I won't pay you like everyone else", those agents would laugh in your face. Your ass would probably be fired too because you would not have been able to keep anyone.

Not an excuse for the situation the Toronto Maple Leafs are in. Sorry.

Also, management came out during media availability and basically said they were staying the course.

 

[Bluelines]

Isn't it amazing that people get so impressed by fluff? Who cares if he is an A-hole and gets the job done? I don't care if his table manners are superb.

We had an A-Hole and he dug a deeper hole but I get your point... it's a what have you done for me lately league.

 

[hotpaws]

Parise- sub Nylander young player (48 in scoring over 2 full elc seasons vs 128, worse draft pedigree)
Result- 4 year + 1 year contracts combining to current equivalent of 6x5, departs to UFA.
Contract not meaningfully better, player leaves as soon as possible

Gomez- Prime age 1C
Result- two 1 year bridges (current equivalent 4.6 and 9.25), departs to UFA
Squeezes over 2 seasons, second of which is still quite expensive ,player leaves as soon as possible

Zajac 1- young 2C coming off a breakout 60 point season
Result- 4 year bridge (5.5m eq.) that takes him right to UFA

Zajac 2- prime age 2C, coming off back to back seasons combining 26 points in 63 games
Result- big ole long term extension @ equivalent of 7.3
Player has not broken 50 points on the contract, 3 times under 30 points

Barzal- young 1C
Result-7m x 3

Did decent on Kadri and Rielly, but neither had really broken out yet, Kadri had already been bridged once if not twice.


Hell he was ready to walk away from Anders Lee until Panarin balked him and he had to circle back. If Lou followed his MO we'd likely be either in or 1 year out from our *2nd* contentious set of negotiations with whichever kids were still here. Yes, we only got 5 and 6 years from them as it is, but 5-6 years in one shot is a lot more likely to see them kept long term than a penny pinching series of 1's- 2's -3's and a constant media circus. Maybe he would have been right to strong arm them an try to compete with them cheap during team control then walk away, time will tell. But given their demonstrated mindsets his approach would mix like oil and water.

so basically after 30 yrs as GM of NJ you came up with 2 examples of players leaving to back up your claim that he had a long history of players leaving in there prime

and worst part of your fairy tale is both were 28 which the same age Willie and Marner can leave and 1 yr older than Mathews can bolt

so i really have no idea how you can say Dubie handing out bar re setting deals to all 3 rfa's which can have them leaving the same age or younger as being a better contract negotiator

 

[4thline]

so basically after 30 yrs as GM of NJ you came up with 2 examples of players leaving to back up your claim that he had a long history of players leaving in there prime

and worst part of your fairy tale is both were 28 which the same age Willie and Marner can leave and 1 yr older than Mathews can bolt

so i really have no idea how you can say Dubie handing out bar re setting deals to all 3 rfa's which can have them leaving the same age or younger as being a better contract negotiator

In the cap era that is literally 100% of his internally developed 1st line talent. And I didn't say better. I said that Lou's approach would have created a lot of turmoil through multiple renogiations and would leave them more likely to leave.

"Yes, we only got 5 and 6 years from them as it is, but 5-6 years in one shot is a lot more likely to see them kept long term than a penny pinching series of 1's- 2's -3's and a constant media circus. Maybe he would have been right to strong arm them an try to compete with them cheap during team control then walk away, time will tell. But given their demonstrated mindsets his approach would mix like oil and water."

Do you read posts that you respond to?

 

[rumman]

How about a team where players, management, and ownership believe in accountability?

 

[Bust]

How about a team where players, management, and ownership believe in accountability?

agreed. No one in this club should be guaranteed anything.

 

[hotpaws]

In the cap era that is literally 100% of his internally developed 1st line talent. And I didn't say better. I said that Lou's approach would have created a lot of turmoil through multiple renogiations and would leave them more likely to leave.

"Yes, we only got 5 and 6 years from them as it is, but 5-6 years in one shot is a lot more likely to see them kept long term than a penny pinching series of 1's- 2's -3's and a constant media circus. Maybe he would have been right to strong arm them an try to compete with them cheap during team control then walk away, time will tell. But given their demonstrated mindsets his approach would mix like oil and water."

Do you read posts that you respond to?

you originally said Lou had a history of players leaving because he didn't extend them long enough and your long history of players leaving in there prime or more accurately there late prime amounted to 2 players

when i pointed out our 3 kids can leave at the same age or younger due to the contracts Dubas handed out you then switched it too they more likely to stay because Dubie is a weak bitch who hands out market setting deals unlike that cheap meanie Lou

but have your fun spewing fairy tales while you can because Dubie has 1 foot out the door and the rest of him will be following shortly unless he can pull a rabbit out of his ass

 

[4thline]

you originally said Lou had a history of players leaving because he didn't extend them long enough and your long history of players leaving in there prime or more accurately there late prime amounted to 2 players

when i pointed out our 3 kids can leave at the same age or younger due to the contracts Dubas handed out you then switched it too they more likely to stay because Dubie is a weak bitch who hands out market setting deals unlike that cheap meanie Lou

but have your fun spewing fairy tales while you can because Dubie has 1 foot out the door and the rest of him will be following shortly unless he can pull a rabbit out of his ass

[MOD]

In the cap era, Lou had and continues to have a 100% track record of bridging his 1st line level young forwards.
History shows no discounts. We'll see what will happen with Barzal post bridge.

 

[hotpaws]

A lot of babble, all that could have been saved by reading posts.

"No history of trading them, 100% history of giving a sequence of highish value bridges then seeing them leave at UFA time"
I guess I should have specified cap era, I do know the reading level of who I'm talking to. Simple short sentences.

In the cap era, Lou had and continues to have a 100% track record of bridging his 1st line level young forwards.
History shows no discounts. We'll see what will happen with Barzal post bridge.

so you say he gives "highish value bridges" but you also say he gives "penny pinching series of 1's- 2's -3's"

i'm thinking the misunderstanding we're having is you can't keep your bullshit straight

 

[4thline]

so you say he gives "highish value bridges" but you also say he gives "penny pinching series of 1's- 2's -3's"

i'm thinking the misunderstanding we're having is you can't keep your bullshit straight

Penny pinching = not willing to shell out to buy term

Highish value bridges= player gets solid value for the short term.

Ex. Barzals 7 x 3. Thats a 9+ x 6 valuation in full knowledge of a flat cap. Its not actually bargaining any better, just refusing to pay for the extra years.

 

[supsens]

He should never have been hired. I was trusting Shanny knew what he was doing but he was apparently way off. Statistics don’t win championships. It’s a tool that should be used in conjunction with many other tools to build a competitive team. It was a failed rebuild and the Shanny era needs to be walked off a plank. Sell off some assets and retool. We’re closer to drafting first overall than competing for a cup. No point in staying a playoff bubble team any longer.

To be fair the marketing team and image consultants have probably decided it is extremely important to target the young hipster/millennial crowd, Shanny has a consultant type job he is not completely in charge of running things.

 

[Stonehands1990]

The Leafs have 6 draft picks over the next 2 seasons.

We drafted 30 in the last 3 though

 

[rocketman588]

So we'll guarantee it for one more year and then he'll blow all the draft picks? When we actually have them in 2023 ( you know since he's gotten rid of them ALL in the next two years)

Stupid process

Let's be real look at the Habs roster, our futures are not actually that good.....

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Lou wins gm of the year. Dubas gets voted biggest gm pushover by actual players/agents.

It's such a complete and total f***ing joke.