Winnipeg Sun: Jets, Mark Chipman, call for help as attendance decreases

[Ted Hoffman]

No, it's nothing like that, because the "transition in the South to going back to being part of the United States went pretty smoothly" is a completely false statement. It was not remotely smooth. It's called Reconstruction, look it up.

Oh, thank you for the history lesson. I didn't learn anything about it when I had to write a paper about it in college, maybe you can enlighten me on some of the details.

But more generally - you keep trying to re-litigate what some anonymous posters you think you remember from 2010-2011 were saying. Why should we care?

I'm pretty sure it's more than "I think I remember," but do keep telling me what I know and what I don't know. This could get really entertaining.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I'm pretty sure it's more than "I think I remember," but do keep telling me what I know and what I don't know. This could get really entertaining.

I have no idea what you know and don't know. That's kind of my point.

Your basic argument though continues to be "some people said they were from Canada and said something stupid/mean/idiotic 12 years ago". What you've never said is why we should care.

I'm sure someone, somewhere, said something stupid about hockey in Atlanta vs Winnipeg. So what?

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I have no idea what you know and don't know. That's kind of my point.

Then don't make statements pretending you do. That's exactly my point.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Then don't make statements pretending you do. That's exactly my point.

Your basic argument though continues to be "some people said they were from Canada and said something stupid/mean/idiotic 12 years ago". What you've never said is why we should care.

I'm sure someone, somewhere, said something stupid about hockey in Atlanta vs Winnipeg. So what?

 

[Skidooboy]

lol jets basically since the bombers stopped playing have been AT WORST 85% capacity....
85%

this thread is a joke.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

lol jets basically since the bombers stopped playing have been AT WORST 85% capacity....
85%

this thread is a joke.

With no other major league team in town? Thats not good brother.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

lol jets basically since the bombers stopped playing have been AT WORST 85% capacity....
85%

this thread is a joke.

85% capacity for a team that has one of the best records in the league is sign of a team that needs to be relocated.
And yes it's joke Winnipeg has an NHL team.

 

[HolyCrap]

85% capacity for a team that has one of the best records in the league is sign of a team that needs to be relocated.
And yes it's joke Winnipeg has an NHL team.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

With no other major league team in town? Thats not good brother.

Well, this does put a spotlight on a positive for Peg. On one hand, IMO, any market with a MSA population under 1.5 mil is going to struggle (population and corporate support)... on the other, at least Peg doesn't have a lot of competition coming from other major sports.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Well, this does put a spotlight on a positive for Peg. On one hand, IMO, any market with a MSA population under 1.5 mil is going to struggle (population and corporate support)... on the other, at least Peg doesn't have a lot of competition coming from other major sports.

"Major sports" as defined by the typical American sports fan, maybe. There are other sports in Winnipeg.

Speaking for myself here, I'm a Jets fan but in the past year the Jets ranked #3 in terms of the local teams I've spent the most money on buying tickets, merch, etc.

 

[Jets4Life]

"Major sports" as defined by the typical American sports fan, maybe. There are other sports in Winnipeg.

Speaking for myself here, I'm a Jets fan but in the past year the Jets ranked #3 in terms of the local teams I've spent the most money on buying tickets, merch, etc.

Perhaps one of the problems Winnipeg has recently faced, is over-saturation of hockey teams. We went from only an AHL team in the first decade, to an NHL, AHL, and WHL from 2019-23. When the Ice moved here, I immediately questioned the wisdom of putting the team in a city with two professional hockey clubs.

It turns out I was correct. The WHL Ice were pretty much an afterthought, and only garnered headlines when they were competing for the WHL Championship in the playoffs. Winnipeg just can't support an NHL, AHL, and WHL team at the same time. With the loss of the Ice, it may help the Jets in the next couple of years, since many of those fans may revert back to buying Jets tickets. The market has become spoiled.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Perhaps one of the problems Winnipeg has recently faced, is over-saturation of hockey teams. We went from only an AHL team in the first decade, to an NHL, AHL, and WHL from 2019-23. When the Ice moved here, I immediately questioned the wisdom of putting the team in a city with two professional hockey clubs.

It turns out I was correct. The WHL Ice were pretty much an afterthought, and only garnered headlines when they were competing for the WHL Championship in the playoffs. Winnipeg just can't support an NHL, AHL, and WHL team at the same time. With the loss of the Ice, it may help the Jets in the next couple of years, since many of those fans may revert back to buying Jets tickets. The market has become spoiled.

The ICE were one of the teams I spent more money on than the Jets. While they are gone now, let it be known that this is not because the team wasn't properly supported or because the owners gave up, it's because the WHL wanted to punish the owners for failing to build a new arena. Fettes and Cockell wanted to keep running the team. But that is neither here nor there because I'm sure the ICE's revenues were trivial compared to the Jets and even the Moose. I doubt they had any noticeable impact on either.

 

[Yukon Joe]

It turns out I was correct. The WHL Ice were pretty much an afterthought, and only garnered headlines when they were competing for the WHL Championship in the playoffs. Winnipeg just can't support an NHL, AHL, and WHL team at the same time. With the loss of the Ice, it may help the Jets in the next couple of years, since many of those fans may revert back to buying Jets tickets. The market has become spoiled.

The ICE were one of the teams I spent more money on than the Jets. While they are gone now, let it be known that this is not because the team wasn't properly supported or because the owners gave up, it's because the WHL wanted to punish the owners for failing to build a new arena. Fettes and Cockell wanted to keep running the team. But that is neither here nor there because I'm sure the ICE's revenues were trivial compared to the Jets and even the Moose. I doubt they had any noticeable impact on either.

(More for other people than you two):

The ICE moved in 2019. At the time they promised to promised to build a pretty nice-sounding arena complex in Winnipeg n the next few years. In the mean time they played out of the U of Manitoba's Wayne Fleming Arena, which had seating for up to 1,600 - not really a WHL-sized arena.

So of course we know what happened in 2020...

I have no inside knowledge. I can't tell if COVID blew up the ICE's plan to build a new arena, or if those plans were never very solid to begin with. But by 2023 absolutely nothing had happened on building a new arena, and the league forced the move.

 

[jetsmooseice]

(More for other people than you two):

The ICE moved in 2019. At the time they promised to promised to build a pretty nice-sounding arena complex in Winnipeg n the next few years. In the mean time they played out of the U of Manitoba's Wayne Fleming Arena, which had seating for up to 1,600 - not really a WHL-sized arena.

So of course we know what happened in 2020...

I have no inside knowledge. I can't tell if COVID blew up the ICE's plan to build a new arena, or if those plans were never very solid to begin with. But by 2023 absolutely nothing had happened on building a new arena, and the league forced the move.

An "insider" I am familiar with from this website and inclined to believe set out the situation here. The bottom line is that pandemic-related inflation and interest rate hikes meant Fettes and Cockell would have had to come up with $21,000,000 instead of $13,000,000 as planned, and sent carrying costs from the anticipated $650,000 pa to $3,200,000. That ended up killing the plan.

Interestingly the writer noted that Fettes and Cockell were prepared to expand the U of M arena (mainly team facilities but also some seating) to continue using it on an interim basis. That to me was very indicative of their good faith in the matter. The WHL could have accepted the offer at no cost to them and maintained a presence in one of the league's largest markets. Instead they ran off to Wenatchee at the first opportunity. Because they know they can't strong-arm towns like Moose Jaw and Prince Albert into building expensive new barns if every team isn't forced to play along.

 

[Jets4Life]

The ICE were one of the teams I spent more money on than the Jets.

I respect the fact that you supported the Ice, and it is a shame that they left. However, Winnipeg does not have the population or money to support teams in all three leagues. Calgary has nearly double the population of Winnipeg, and the city draws flies since the AHL came to town, and Calgary is much wealthier than Winnipeg.

A WHL team in a blue collar city with less than one million people, with two professional hockey teams already established in the community, is bound to fail.

 

[jetsmooseice]

I respect the fact that you supported the Ice, and it is a shame that they left. However, Winnipeg does not have the population or money to support teams in all three leagues. Calgary has nearly double the population of Winnipeg, and the city draws flies since the AHL came to town, and Calgary is much wealthier than Winnipeg.

A WHL team in a blue collar city with less than one million people, with two professional hockey teams already established in the community, is bound to fail.

I wouldn't argue with you there. There was a small and dedicated fanbase, but it is tough to cut through the noise which brings me back to my original point: Winnipeg is a pretty crowded sports market for a city of its size. I don't think you can find a standalone city of under a million people (excluding suburbs/exurbs of large cities) with as much going on sports-wise as Winnipeg has. So that does underscore the fact that even though the Jets are the most prominent team in town, they still have to work to attract ticket buyers. It's not enough to just open the doors and expect people to flood in.

 

[Yukon Joe]

An "insider" I am familiar with from this website and inclined to believe set out the situation here. The bottom line is that pandemic-related inflation and interest rate hikes meant Fettes and Cockell would have had to come up with $21,000,000 instead of $13,000,000 as planned, and sent carrying costs from the anticipated $650,000 pa to $3,200,000. That ended up killing the plan.

Interestingly the writer noted that Fettes and Cockell were prepared to expand the U of M arena (mainly team facilities but also some seating) to continue using it on an interim basis. That to me was very indicative of their good faith in the matter. The WHL could have accepted the offer at no cost to them and maintained a presence in one of the league's largest markets. Instead they ran off to Wenatchee at the first opportunity. Because they know they can't strong-arm towns like Moose Jaw and Prince Albert into building expensive new barns if every team isn't forced to play along.

So I mean the numbers @jimsabo21 puts forward all sound legit - but I necessarily always question people who claim insider knowledge on this website.

The cynic in me might question why ICE ownership didn't sign up contracts immediately back in 2019 when the team moved, but really like I said I have no insider knowledge.

 

[jetsmooseice]

So I mean the numbers @jimsabo21 puts forward all sound legit - but I necessarily always question people who claim insider knowledge on this website.

The cynic in me might question why ICE ownership didn't sign up contracts immediately back in 2019 when the team moved, but really like I said I have no insider knowledge.

I don't know the guy but I know of him, he has a profile in this city. Winnipeg is a small town in that way. I have no reason to doubt what he is saying.

Good question about why things didn't get moving sooner, but there was some fallout with The Rink's ownership, as well as some personal matters ( Fettes' high profile divorce) that may have affected the original timelines.

 

[Skidooboy]

Again this is absurd.

the market is over a million.
prairie people drive.

single moms he’ll drive kids to regina for weekend tournaments
A hockey fan will gladly drive from Minnedosa for a jets game.
people in Brandon share season tickets. still to this day.

yes the decline needs to be considered.

but 85% capacity is not Worrisome.

and yes they need to sell more tickets. and btw it’s the Corporations TNSE are focusing on selling too. because they are the ones under supporting the franchise, by a large gap compared to other franchises support.

even with all that the attendance isn’t “bad” because it’s a strong market with “average joe” diehard fans filling in.

it’s not great, it’s more like ….ok…. and the team is in a heater.
they win down the stretch and the fans will be there.
overflowing the street Party.

but Chipman built the team knowing there would be bad days he remembers the dark times. and the root causes.
and they made a lot of hard cash those first ten years.

and the concerts and the monster trucks and wrestling and hot dogs and beers are all built around KEEPING the Jets.

this isn’t Phoenix.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

but 85% capacity is not Worrisome.

It's about what Atlanta drew their last season there.

 

[SimpleSimon]

It's about what Atlanta drew their last season there.

Well True North owns the Jets, the Canada Life Centre, a theatres (Burton Cummings and Metropolitain theatres). You should see their real estate portfolio.

 

[Skidooboy]

It's about what Atlanta drew their last season there.

and the sky was blue over both cities too.

Atlanta and Winnipeg’s ownership situation couldn’t be more different.

 

[CaptainUgly]

85% capacity for a team that has one of the best records in the league is sign of a team that needs to be relocated.
And yes it's joke Winnipeg has an NHL team.

Stick to watching Lobos.

 

[Yukon Joe]

It's about what Atlanta drew their last season there.

I feel like we've been over this - Atlanta's owners (ASG) did now want to own a hockey team. ASG owned the arena, so anyone who would buy the Thrashers would then have to rent the arena from ASG, which was not economically viable.

Winnipeg's owners (TNSE) own both the arena, and very much do want to own a hockey team. They also own significant real estate holdings around that arena, all of which are positively impacted by the presence of the hockey team.

You can question Winnipeg's viability all you want - but you should look at the factors particular to Winnipeg when you do so.

 

[Roadrage]

It's about what Atlanta drew their last season there.

Atlanta could've drawn 100% but the fact remains, the new owners only wanted to keep the Hawks and the arena. They did not want the Thrashers at all...literally threw the keys on Bettman's desk and walked away.