Winnipeg Sun: Jets, Mark Chipman, call for help as attendance decreases

[AtlantaWhaler]

The truth is that you can hold the opinions of messageboard warriors against an entire population if you'd like and get the worst impression of any fanbase if you did so.

There's no denying there's keyboard warriors that hold Canadian franchises to different standards than American franchises.

But there's also no denying there's keyboard warriors who pretend that only one side is "provincial" which is absurd. I've seen plenty of that on all sides.

I'm sure a quick deep dive search would find plenty of people saying "all Canadian teams sell out all the time" or other such ridiculous hyperbole. Flogging those fans, to me, is like flogging a strawman. And I'd take no pride in winning an argument with such dim people.

But also to rest one tired counterargument: I lived in Atlanta during most of the Thrashers' time, was p!$$#d at the NHL's indifference when they left and still think that market could make the league beaucoup bucks if done right. I like to think of myself as much more pro Atlanta than anti-Atlanta. But whenever someone points out Atlanta's attendance, and the natural Atlanta rebuttal comes "but Boston, Chicago, etc. had bad attendance for x, y, z years and we don't make fun of them because traditional," I cringe at how intellectually weak of an analogy that is.

Cities like that have whole decades of history of selling out the joint and in some cases, more than a century of history. It's not remotely an apples-to-apples comparison. As far as attendance for Atlanta goes, the best you can say for the Thrashers is: a--- They set an expansion attendance record which was broken by Vegas, b--- they were...an 'OK' attended team when doing well. The highest they were ever ranked in the league, despite having an arena capacity that would have capably supported being in the Top 10, was #11 (their first year). The best you can say for the Flames is: They never set the NHL on fire as an attendance firehouse but they were miles better than the NBA Hawks when taken cumulatively from 1972-80. And we have zero evidence they ever broke through on television (which is the biggest reason you would want a team in Atlanta in the first place).

So it's NOT true is pretend they were like Boston and Chicago at every market's peak. There's zero evidence to support that. It's NOT a strong counterargument to say "we give Boston, Chicago, etc." excuses. Those markets get excuses because they are very different markets historically (mostly for reasons that aren't Atlanta's "fault" per se but nevertheless are very different).

Now mind you, there's also zero way of knowing how Atlanta would have done if either the Flames had turned out like the Islanders competitively or if the Thrashers had turned out.........like any regular playoff team. Or if the Thrashers had ever had anything resembling competent ownership. That's the argument I keep trying to make whenever I wade into this: ANYONE PRETENDING TO KNOW WITH 100% CERTAINTY WHETHER ATLANTA CAN SUCCEED OR FAIL IS LYING. Because we don't have enough evidence to see that they could be the "talk of the town" (their best attended years were "mid" at best) and we also have next-to-no evidence of a properly run franchise in the city (...but their "best" years weren't all that "best" and in fact, if you draw a line from the first Flames season to the last Thrashers season, the ownership gets progressively worse).

Bringing it all back to Winnipeg, I think any fan that thought the Jets would sell out in perpetuity was lying to themselves. But saying it's not right that we "treat" Winnipeg differently? Well........we should treat Winnipeg differently! It's a very unique market. I wouldn't judge Atlanta by Winnipeg's standards or vice-versa. I think each market brings something very different to the NHL. FWIW, I feel the same about American markets like Columbus or Florida (Sunrise). In Winnipeg, what we judge differently is the market's interest in hockey. We know hockey is Winnipeg's #1 sport: The TV ratings in that market as compared to southern teams that struggle will bear that out. But does that mean that Winnipeggers have sufficient capital and passion to sustain mediocrity over an extended period of time? Who can say......not looking good in a small sample set this year, let's see how the next five years play out.

This is a really good, well thought out post with good points.

But I disagree with a fair amount of it.

In a nutshell, nobody is bringing up those markets to say Atlanta is just like them. I agree that each market is distinctively different. The point of bringing up those markets is because they have a rich hockey history and, in some cases, have won numerous championships, but despite that, they have faced challenges. As you're well aware, in many of the southern market bashing threads, the general theme of those posting is/was to move those markets which were struggling at that time to Hamilton, QC, Toronto II, Hartford, etc. The points raised is 1) many traditional markets have rebounded despite past attendance issues, and 2) the high and mighty northern/Canadian markets are by no means immune to attendance issues.

Now, in hindsight, Carolina and Tampa are in the top-3 attendance in the league and Nashville, Florida, and Dallas all have strong attendance figures. It's not to say that some of these markets won't struggle again down the road, because they will. But asking these teams to pack up and move to Hamilton after many of their own favorite teams struggled with attendance at certain stretches of their existence is certainly relevant to point out.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

You keep asking what's my point. I have told you my point. I have repeated my point. I have told you a third time what the point was.

I have to believe at this stage that you're incapable of grasping my point. I'm sorry, but responding to you any further -- such as asking you to defend your accusation of hypocrisy -- seems "pointless".

So your point if I have it right, is that people are saying that we have been told that Canadian teams will be selling out no matter what. Which is true. This is not disputable. People on this board have been saying this.

So what’s the problem here? It’s true. There is nothing here that’s misleading. Which makes your Fox News example terrible. And stereotyping America as whole? Yea I am not sure you are really any better than people you are trying to make fun of, I am not gonna lie.

I don’t think I ever called you a hypocrite. So I don’t know what issue you have with me there. But if you are talking about your fellow Canada First people, then surely saying bad on ice product is not an excuse to bad attendance and then turning around and using same excuse for Winnipeg Jets is hypocrisy? Seems like very definition.

 

[BMN]

The crux of the frustration is that Atlanta 3.0 wouldn't need to be the "talk of the town" to be successful, yet Canadians keep acting like that is the measuring stick of whether a market is worthy. Franchises like Dallas, LA, Tampa, Carolina, etc (including the New Yorks) have such a large pool of customers (regular people and corporate) that you don't need to be the reason everyone gets out of bed in the morning like small town Canada to be perfectly fine. I don't think Atlanta 3.0 will eclipse the Falcons or Braves but they wouldn't need to.

That's a completely fair point and Canadians (which I've frequently learned on HFBoards threads are 100% represented by the Business of Hockey forum which I wish someone had told all of us because then maybe we would have held elections) will simply have to come to terms with this. I think a lot of heated arguments stem from the simple truth that Canada--- save Toronto--- isn't populated to support the #1-3 sports in North America but has the passion to support hockey. Thus what Canadians (all 100% of us represented by this forum) need to come to terms with is what a successful American market looks like for MANY sports (not just hockey) is very different looking that what we grew up around.

I actually have a hard time explaining to friends of mine back home that the Falcons--- a generally very profitable enterprise as all NFL teams are--- are also not often the "talk of the town." But not because the market is bad but because it's very big, there are multiple sports and there are ebbs & flows.

 

[BMN]

Now, in hindsight, Carolina and Tampa are in the top-3 attendance in the league and Nashville, Florida, and Dallas all have strong attendance figures. It's not to say that some of these markets won't struggle again down the road, because they will. But asking these teams to pack up and move to Hamilton after many of their own favorite teams struggled with attendance at certain stretches of their existence is certainly relevant to point out.

Totally fair. The Hamilton arguers.......that's a kettle of fish unto itself. But re: Quebec, the message many of their fans get is that the only way they'll ever get a team is via relocation. So telling them to stop rooting for relocation is tantamount to telling them "your city is second rate and accept you're never getting the NHL back." And heck, if you feel that way, you're entitled to feel that way. But don't act shocked when people who geniunely take pride in where they live stump for what they've been repeatedly told is the only viable option for a NHL team.

People have said "the NHL should go back to Atlanta" and people have also said "the NHL should never under any circumstances return to Atlanta." But I don't recall *anyone* saying "relocation is the *only* way the NHL returns to Atlanta." If that was the message you received year-in and year-out from fans, business analysts and speculators, I doubt you'd be above rooting for a market to "fail" (quotes fully intended) so that Atlanta could get another shot.

 

[joelef]

Totally fair. The Hamilton arguers.......that's a kettle of fish unto itself. But re: Quebec, the message many of their fans get is that the only way they'll ever get a team is via relocation. So telling them to stop rooting for relocation is tantamount to telling them "your city is second rate and accept you're never getting the NHL back." And heck, if you feel that way, you're entitled to feel that way. But don't act shocked when people who geniunely take pride in where they live stump for what they've been repeatedly told is the only viable option for a NHL team.

People have said "the NHL should go back to Atlanta" and people have also said "the NHL should never under any circumstances return to Atlanta." But I don't recall *anyone* saying "relocation is the *only* way the NHL returns to Atlanta." If that was the message you received year-in and year-out from fans, business analysts and speculators, I doubt you'd be above rooting for a market to "fail" (quotes fully intended) so that Atlanta could get another shot.

No it’s the fact that Quebec fans play the victim about their team moving while calling for others to fail. At least sonic fans had empathy for Sacramento a Milwaukee fans when they were threatening to move to Seattle .

 

[MMC]

Only 11,136 in attendance tonight, could drop below 11k at this rate…

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Totally fair. The Hamilton arguers.......that's a kettle of fish unto itself. But re: Quebec, the message many of their fans get is that the only way they'll ever get a team is via relocation. So telling them to stop rooting for relocation is tantamount to telling them "your city is second rate and accept you're never getting the NHL back." And heck, if you feel that way, you're entitled to feel that way. But don't act shocked when people who geniunely take pride in where they live stump for what they've been repeatedly told is the only viable option for a NHL team.

People have said "the NHL should go back to Atlanta" and people have also said "the NHL should never under any circumstances return to Atlanta." But I don't recall *anyone* saying "relocation is the *only* way the NHL returns to Atlanta." If that was the message you received year-in and year-out from fans, business analysts and speculators, I doubt you'd be above rooting for a market to "fail" (quotes fully intended) so that Atlanta could get another shot.

In my opinion, that is no excuse for trash talking and telling fans of a struggling franchise that their team should move. Having gone through that TWICE, it's the worst (as you also know). I post in the baseball forum as well and I feel terrible for A's fans.

I do hope I've been clear...in no way do I wish the Jets move, and they're not going to, either. They will be another example of a team which, at one point, struggled with attendance for whatever reason, but has rebounded and is selling out their arena. My hope is that Atlanta gets a franchise through expansion.

 

[BMN]

In my opinion, that is no excuse for trash talking and telling fans of a struggling franchise that their team should move. Having gone through that TWICE, it's the worst (as you also know). I post in the baseball forum as well and I feel terrible for A's fans.

That's well and nice. But you didn't address my original point: if you were repeatedly told that was the only way (and let me reiterate: you haven't), I highly doubt you (or more specifically most Atlanta fans) would be nearly as sanguine about it.

"I hope the NHL never comes back to my town because I care so much about all of you......"

To be clear, I'm not defending the worst of Quebec supporters. But a lot of times this forum comes off as "Quebec hockey fans are evil and rotten while southern hockey fans are pure as the driven snow..."

 

[Salsero1]

That's well and nice. But you didn't address my original point: if you were repeatedly told that was the only way (and let me reiterate: you haven't), I highly doubt you (or more specifically most Atlanta fans) would be nearly as sanguine about it.

"I hope the NHL never comes back to my town because I care so much about all of you......"

To be clear, I'm not defending the worst of Quebec supporters. But a lot of times this forum comes off as "Quebec hockey fans are evil and rotten while southern hockey fans are pure as the driven snow..."

I really don't think fans in Atlanta or any Southern market would be so mean spirited as your typical Quebec advocate.

When did the league say "you'll only get a team via relocation"?

I just don't think people down here would waste years of their lives pouring gas on their own grudge fire over this. Maybe some, but we have other things here. An adult should know better than to act that way, no matter where they're from.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

That's well and nice. But you didn't address my original point: if you were repeatedly told that was the only way (and let me reiterate: you haven't), I highly doubt you (or more specifically most Atlanta fans) would be nearly as sanguine about it.

"I hope the NHL never comes back to my town because I care so much about all of you......"

To be clear, I'm not defending the worst of Quebec supporters. But a lot of times this forum comes off as "Quebec hockey fans are evil and rotten while southern hockey fans are pure as the driven snow..."

I did address it and you quoted it. "There is no excuse..." Bashing and wishing fans lose their franchise is trash no matter the reasoning.

I also disagree with QC fans that say relocation is the only way they'll get a team. If there is an owner willing to pay these crazy fees with a good arena (I've been told they have one), QC will certainly join the list of markets that have the same. If relocation ever became an option, the same rules would apply, just negotiation with a different entity.

 

[Salsero1]

I did address it and you quoted it. "There is no excuse..." Bashing and wishing fans lose their franchise is trash no matter the reasoning.

I also disagree with QC fans that say relocation is the only way they'll get a team. If there is an owner willing to pay these crazy fees with a good arena (I've been told they have one), QC will certainly join the list of markets that have the same. If relocation ever became an option, the same rules would apply, just negotiation with a different entity.

That's really it. I think many of them would prefer a relocated team. They seem to like the thought of taking a team away from an unworthy US market.

 

[BMN]

I doubt it highly @Salsero1 . Most fans no matter the city generally prefer an original team so they don't "have" to "share" history, etc.

But don't mind me. I haven't met every single Quebecer through HFBoards like you have....

 

[BMN]

I also disagree with QC fans that say relocation is the only way they'll get a team.

Fair enough. But they bid in the last round. The NHL didn't reject it. They didn't accept it. They "tabled" it. And the whole reasoning was "the cost of expansion was too much." And then a Seattle group- who was NOWHERE TO BE FOUND during the actual call-- suddenly leapfrogged them. Underscoring the point.

I'm not defending how any Quebec (or for that matter Hamilton) fans conducted themselves prior to that. But there wasn't much of a conclusion to draw from the expansion bidding other than "it'll have to be relocation."

And I'd love to know what American South @Salsero1 lived in all their life where absolutely no one is parochial like those nasty evil spawn-of-Satan Quebecers ..... but it ain't the South I lived in for 20 years....

 

[BMN]

Only 11,136 in attendance tonight, could drop below 11k at this rate…

That'll be something to keep an eye on. What is "bottom?" Are we there now? Yet to get there?

 

[nhlfan79]

I did address it and you quoted it. "There is no excuse..." Bashing and wishing fans lose their franchise is trash no matter the reasoning.

Let's not forget that it wasn't just anonymous internet trolls bashing Atlanta towards the end. TSN itself was stoking the frenzy with its "Jets Meter" on its front page for months.

How 'bout them Winnipeg Jets?

The media in Canada really really really fetishizes the idea of a seventh Canadian team in the National Hockey League, and they've been circling the dying carcasses of the Atlanta Thrashers and Phoenix Coyotes like buzzards for years.

This week, it got just a bit more ludicrous when TSN - the Canadian equivalent of ESPN, who therefore should try to be at least somewhat rational and unbiased about this type of thing - took the increasingly contentious hearings about keeping the Coyotes in Glendale as a cue to unveil its Jets Meter.

Yup, the most ubiquitous and influencial sports network in Canada is actively rooting for the return of the Winnipeg Jets at the expense of an existing franchise.

Oh sorry, it's showing its own "ongoing take on how close the long-held dream is to reaching fruition in 2011-12." That wording isn't biased at all.

Trending Topics: Impatient on Sidney Crosby; TSN's Jets Meter

Trending Topics is a column that looks at the week in hockey according to Twitter. If you're only going to...

ca.sports.yahoo.com

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Fair enough. But they bid in the last round. The NHL didn't reject it. They didn't accept it. They "tabled" it. And the whole reasoning was "the cost of expansion was too much." And then a Seattle group- who was NOWHERE TO BE FOUND during the actual call-- suddenly leapfrogged them. Underscoring the point.

I'm not defending how any Quebec (or for that matter Hamilton) fans conducted themselves prior to that. But there wasn't much of a conclusion to draw from the expansion bidding other than "it'll have to be relocation."

And I'd love to know what American South @Salsero1 lived in all their life where absolutely no one is parochial like those nasty evil spawn-of-Satan Quebecers ..... but it ain't the South I lived in for 20 years....

I have no idea what specifically happened behind closed doors, but I feel that any potential owner willing to pay that insane fee and has a good arena and marketing plan has a shot (once expansion is being discussed).

But again, none of this is an excuse to tell fans to move their team, especially fans of a team that has already moved like QC. 1996 and 2011 were devastating to me and I would think QC understands this quite well (I'm sure most do).

 

[BMN]

Let's not forget that it wasn't just anonymous internet trolls bashing Atlanta towards the end. TSN itself was stoking the frenzy with its Jets-O-Meter on its front page for months.

It was a story. "Jets-o-meter" probably got them clicks. Are they not supposed to cover the national sports stories everyone in the country is talking about? You're just being silly here.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

That'll be something to keep an eye on. What is "bottom?" Are we there now? Yet to get there?

May take a couple seasons, but it'll get turned around. Plus, the Jets have something the Thrashers certainly never had...a committed owner with VERY deep pockets who happens to own the arena as well.

 

[BMN]

But again, none of this is an excuse to tell fans to move their team, especially fans of a team that has already moved like QC. 1996 and 2011 were devastating to me and I would think QC understands this quite well (I'm sure most do).

I think Atlanta "loses" points (fairly or unfairly, I'm neither defending nor condemning it) for having plenty of other sports to go 'round.

I'd like to think, though, that they could relate to Hartford. VERY similar psychologically (all the way to Boston being very analogous to Montreal).

It's also easy for Americans to take it personally now that most Canadians (at least the ones that publicly say anything about it) are also rah-rah when asked about the NHL returning to Quebec City. The political landscape of Quebec in 1995 + the fact that the Jets relocation drama received much more national press likely left a lot Quebecers just as salty at Canada. But I wasn't in Quebec at the time (nor trolling alt.nhl.quebec.nordiques or whatever it would have been called at the time), so I have no clue.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

It was a story. "Jets-o-meter" probably got them clicks. Are they not supposed to cover the national sports stories everyone in the country is talking about? You're just being silly here.

Sorry...this thread is getting totally derailed......

He's absolutely not being silly about being angry that the ownership group responsible for ripping a franchise away from fans is actively cheering this on their own web page. I understand they can do whatever they want with their own website, but this is in terrible taste, especially when their PR had quotes from them saying how "upset" they were. Total BS.

 

[nhlfan79]

It was a story. "Jets-o-meter" probably got them clicks. Are they not supposed to cover the national sports stories everyone in the country is talking about? You're just being silly here.

If it was straight news coverage, that's 100% fair game. But sensationalizing it into a daily probability graphic was unseemly and distasteful, especially from Canada's top sports newsgathering source. The fact that it "probably got them clicks" is exactly the rub here in this discussion.

And just to be clear, I'm very much looking forward to a Jets vs. Atlanta 3.0 game here, when and if it ever happens. I imagine it will be a madhouse and people will finally be able to get some measure of emotional closure. I hope Gary Bettman drops the first puck, too.

 

[BMN]

If it was straight news coverage, that's 100% fair game. But sensationalizing it into a daily probability graphic was unseemly and distasteful, especially from Canada's top sports newsgathering source. The fact that it "probably got them clicks" is exactly the rub here in this discussion.

The fact that Canada passionately wanted one of its cities to get a hockey team and thus made it attractive for the national sports leader (well...at the time anyway) to try to hype up that story for clicks being a bad thing........well, we all have our takes.

Also, there's some missing context in two ways there: if Quebec has little chance besides relocation now, it was MUCH MORE the case for Winnipeg in the early 2010s when expansion for anyone wasn't on the visible horizon. And second, much of the Jets-o-meter frenzy centered on the Coyotes, which started in Winnipeg in the first place: sort of a tit-for-tat if you would (not that this makes it entirely kosher either but it is different).

Lest I sound like a hypocrite, I don't imagine Canadians will be pleased if suddenly Atlanta sports news started their own "Thrashers-o-meter" of rumours of a relocation to Atlanta ever happened. But *I* wouldn't be personally offended by it. I expect sports coverage to play to its regional audience.

EDIT: I would also love an Atlanta 3.0 vs. Winnipeg 2.0 game. Honestly if ATL 3.0 happens and if the sked calls for a home-and-home, I'd open BOTH teams' home skeds with that home-and-home.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Lest I sound like a hypocrite, I don't imagine Canadians will be pleased if suddenly Atlanta sports news started their own "Thrashers-o-meter" of rumours of a relocation to Atlanta ever happened. But *I* wouldn't be personally offended by it. I expect sports coverage to play to its regional audience.

I think this is the key...some empathy. Hypothetically, if Chipman was negotiating with an Atlanta entity and posted a Thrasher-meter, Jets fans would be disgusted, and rightfully so.

 

[Headshot77]

Realistically, the NHL isn't a gate driven league anymore. Or at least it's less gate driven today than it ever has been before. Attendance doesn't really matter as much. Drumming up relocation rumors based on attendance alone is dumb. Relocation occurs in the modern age only if a team doesn't have a committed owner, or doesn't have a building. The Winnipeg Jets are owned by the countries wealthiest person who owns nearly all of downtown. IMO they aren't even worth discussing relocation.

 

[BMN]

Realistically, the NHL isn't a gate driven league anymore. Or at least it's less gate driven today than it ever has been before. Attendance doesn't really matter as much. Drumming up relocation rumors based on attendance alone is dumb. Relocation occurs in the modern age only if a team doesn't have a committed owner, or doesn't have a building. The Winnipeg Jets are owned by the countries wealthiest person who owns nearly all of downtown. IMO they aren't even worth discussing relocation.

Right now, it's less talking relocation than just general business. It's just interesting to speculate on forthcoming attendance trends since this is the first season in WIN2.0 to start like this.